Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Beach Growth (not erosion)

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Created by Simondo > 9 months ago, 20 Nov 2012
Simondo
VIC, 8020 posts
20 Nov 2012 6:12PM
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The foot of a primary sand dune near me has grown by about 3 metres (towards the sea) in 4 years.
The council still loves their signs, "stay off the dunes due to erosion", or similar.

I agree, the "generic" signs are a good thing. But the dunes are growing, not eroding!!

At first glance, it looks like they are eroding badly, but they are growing so fast that the next stormy high tide cuts into the front of the dune, and causes some collapse to the unstable but rapidly growing dunes.

Note: this is just an observation...

Ian K
WA, 4048 posts
20 Nov 2012 3:55PM
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That's the natural scheme of things, the cut at the front of the dune is termed a storm scarp. Sand with the aid of vegetation will build up until it is battered by the next storm. The last time I visited the 90 mile beach it had a high scarp like that for as far as I could see. That's a relatively remote and undisturbed beach

If vegetation is taken out by trampling or if the dune system has been modified by sand mining this battle between vegetation and the sea may not be present.

Some of the old surfies in the Illawarra also see this as a problem, but they are recalling the good old days just following sand mining ( a lot of it was apparently shipped to Hawaii to yellow up their volcanic beaches)
The beaches then were flatter and wider. With no vegetation to bind the windblown sand it kept on blowing, across the roads and into the suburbs.

FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
20 Nov 2012 7:09PM
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That's also caused by global warming, I mean climate change.
Any change in anything is caused by climate change.

Like when you get your food out of the oven and it cools... yup you guessed it, climate change.
When you have a hot shower and the room steams up, that's right, climate change.

I reckon they need to increase the price of CO2, that should fix your dunes.

lotofwind
NSW, 6451 posts
20 Nov 2012 8:07PM
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I hear that there will be a tax on that extra sand that you are enjoying for free next financial year.

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
20 Nov 2012 9:58PM
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Spot on simondo, we have a very similar situation here and the council are screaming erosion. Fact is that over the past 40 years the beach has grown over 30m. I've had several conversations with oceanic and geological consultants (it's my job) and they confirmed that most of the hype is propaganda for either personal gain or to support the climate change scare mongers.

patsken
WA, 705 posts
20 Nov 2012 7:02PM
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Last weeks Catalyst show on ABC was interesting......????

Hunter S
WA, 516 posts
20 Nov 2012 7:06PM
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Change is the natural order of things.

It's just humans who want things to stay the same

FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
20 Nov 2012 10:10PM
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Hunter S said...
Change is the natural order of things.

It's just humans who want things to stay the same


No it's just humans you want other humans to give them money for nothing, and checks for free.

japie
NSW, 6813 posts
20 Nov 2012 10:19PM
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FlySurfer said...
That's also caused by global warming, I mean climate change.
Any change in anything is caused by climate change.

Like when you get your food out of the oven and it cools... yup you guessed it, climate change.
When you have a hot shower and the room steams up, that's right, climate change.

I reckon they need to increase the price of CO2, that should fix your dunes.



I just had a sauna in the hotel I am staying in and poured water on the heating elements. The room heated up. Is this also due to climate change? Or was it as a direct result of me pouring water on the element? Or was it simply climate change that caused me to pour water on the element?

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
20 Nov 2012 8:44PM
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just remember that the sand came from somewhere, and it wil also be going somewhere, it just happens to be at your beach at the moment.
staying off the really fragile vegetation will let you keep it longer

Mark _australia
WA, 22237 posts
20 Nov 2012 9:55PM
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FlySurfer said...
Hunter S said...
Change is the natural order of things.

It's just humans who want things to stay the same


No it's just humans you want other humans to give them money for nothing, and checks for free.


You reckon that is hard? We got to install microwave ovens, custom kitchen deliveriieesss


kiteboy dave
QLD, 6525 posts
21 Nov 2012 12:00AM
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Sailhack said...
Spot on simondo, we have a very similar situation here and the council are screaming erosion. Fact is that over the past 40 years the beach has grown over 30m. I've had several conversations with oceanic and geological consultants (it's my job) and they confirmed that most of the hype is propaganda for either personal gain or to support the climate change scare mongers.


How does a council get personal gain by hyping erosion? or why does a council "support climate change scare mongers" for no other reason than that?

Sorry, doesn't make sense.

"Climate change scare mongers" include the vast majority of scientists in the world, NASA, CSIRO, and even the world bank has released a new report stating that urgent action may even be too little too late.
www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/19/world-bank-warns-climate-change/1715165/

You can stick your head in the sand because by the time the worst of it hits you'll be dead and your kids will be dealing with it. But being in denial won't make it magically disappear.

lightwood
VIC, 392 posts
21 Nov 2012 9:09AM
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“Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
21st Century's developed world went into hysterical panic over
a globally averaged temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree,
and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer projections,
combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate
a roll-back of the industrial age”.


Professor Richard Lindzen, Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Wineman
NSW, 1412 posts
21 Nov 2012 9:24AM
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Mark _australia said...
FlySurfer said...
Hunter S said...
Change is the natural order of things.

It's just humans who want things to stay the same


No it's just humans you want other humans to give them money for nothing, and checks for free.


You reckon that is hard? We got to install microwave ovens, custom kitchen deliveriieesss




We gotta move these refrigerators
We gotta move these colour TVVVVVV's


kiteboy dave
QLD, 6525 posts
21 Nov 2012 9:23AM
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lightwood said...
"pollute more it's fun (or something along those lines)".
Professor Richard Lindzen, Massachusetts Institute of Technology.


Professor Richard Lindzen, Deluded and debunked mate of the mad "Lord" Monkton.
www.skepticalscience.com/lindzen-london-illusions.html
www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2012/04/climate-scientists-take-on-lindzen
arthur.shumwaysmith.com/life/content/is_richard_s_lindzen_deliberately_lying_or_just_deluded

FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
21 Nov 2012 10:29AM
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japie said...
I just had a sauna in the hotel I am staying in and poured water on the heating elements. The room heated up. Is this also due to climate change? Or was it as a direct result of me pouring water on the element? Or was it simply climate change that caused me to pour water on the element?



This is a clear example of anthropogenic localized warming (sauna).
But the effect you experienced was the water transferring heat from the elements/rocks to the local atmosphere, there was no net increase in energy.
Btw: it is possible to crack the elements if water is poured directly on to them.

FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
21 Nov 2012 10:40AM
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kiteboy dave said...
You can stick your head in the sand because by the time the worst of it hits you'll be dead and your kids will be dealing with it. But being in denial won't make it magically disappear.


Long before future generations have to deal with unprecedented climate effects, they would had to have dealt with eco system collapse due to overpopulation, over exploitation, reduction of biodiversity, mono culture agriculture and chemical pollution.

You seem to have forgotten how well the Earth did when it was warmer, greener, and with much more CO2.

You play the guitar on the MTV.
That ain't workin' that's the way you do it.

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
21 Nov 2012 10:40AM
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kiteboy dave said...

How does a council get personal gain by hyping erosion? or why does a council "support climate change scare mongers" for no other reason than that?

Sorry, doesn't make sense.

"Climate change scare mongers" include the vast majority of scientists in the world, NASA, CSIRO, and even the world bank has released a new report stating that urgent action may even be too little too late.
www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/19/world-bank-warns-climate-change/1715165/

You can stick your head in the sand because by the time the worst of it hits you'll be dead and your kids will be dealing with it. But being in denial won't make it magically disappear.




I wouldn't say that I'm in denial, I do have an understanding about climate change and not from internet-based research. My comment re; council (and gov't) is that they are making decisions that affect property-owners based on a climate model that was designed on a 'worst-case' scenario and assuming that the distant predictions will affect us immediately. They also have a habit of making decisions from media hype and local extremists that are pushing their own agendas in order to gain local support. (re; recent Vic planning overlays - Bushfire-prone areas & Aboriginal Cultural Heritage overlays), both of which were recently legislated without adequate consultation and are both now being reviewed after the realisation that they are incorrect.

The earth is warming...the ocean is rising, but it's all happened before and will again in a few centuries, possibly after the next 'global cooling' cycle.

The local coastline that I'm referring to (I'm not commenting on areas that I know nothing about) has aerial photography dating back over 40 years and it clearly shows, using measurements from landmarks, trees, buildings etc. that the land mass has increased over 30m in depth.

The local landowners which I have had many discussions with, have stated that in their youth they could see the ocean from their homes (these homes still exist, many for several generations), now the ocean is obscured by dunes that have increased in height over the decades.

Unfortunately, many locals are not privy to this information and when recently an objector to development put up a petition to sway the council and used before & after photos showing 'eroded beaches' (which clearly showed an increase in the beach, but gave an impression that the vegetation had decreased) the local council jumped to the conclusion that the coastline was volatile and would 'fall in to the ocean' at any point.

The professional consultants that visited the site have declared that there is no 'immediate cause for concern' (on-record) and off-record have divulged that they would wager that that land will still be there for many centuries to come.

The 'scare-mongering' of the whole 'climate-change' debate will go on regardless of any facts to the contrary because the more noise the scientists make the more funding they will get. Although it also adds to the economy by increasing jobs and research into alternative fuels etc. it is also having a detrimental effect on development and giving power to organisations that do have their own agendas. For those that aren't convinced (me included) it does have benefits, including encouraging the (many uneducated) masses to live more responsibly in regard to reduction in energy use, disposal of waste.

I just think that we should tread carefully and make the right 'informed' decisions, and not jump to conclusions based on knee-jerk reactions and extremist propaganda.

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
21 Nov 2012 10:46AM
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Simondo said...

The foot of a primary sand dune near me has grown by about 3 metres (towards the sea) in 4 years.
The council still loves their signs, "stay off the dunes due to erosion", or similar.

I agree, the "generic" signs are a good thing. But the dunes are growing, not eroding!!

Looks like ocean erosion...

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
21 Nov 2012 10:53AM
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kiteboy dave said...


...and even the world bank has released a new report stating that urgent action may even be too little too late.
www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/19/world-bank-warns-climate-change/1715165/



I'm not convinced that the "World Bank' is a credible resource for unbiased climate information?

FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
21 Nov 2012 9:41AM
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OK, I'll bite.

Do any of you sceptics actually read any of the studies that are done? i.e. the peer-reviewed scientific studies on climate change?

Do you understand the concept of "peer-reviewed"?

Thousands of papers are produced each year by scientists around the globe. Guys and girls with a passion for science, for discovery, for enlightenment. Their papers are then reviewed by their peers within the scientific community to ensure that their methods are sound and their conclusions are appropriate. Then it gets published.

I read a lot of this stuff. It's not "propaganda", it's science, and the vast majority of it published supports the theory that man's activities are influencing the global climate.

If you don't believe me, then I beg of you to do the following:

1) Go and meet some scientists. Learn what type of people they are and the environment in which they work. That in itself should put paid to the hilarious concept that they are fabricating a global conspiracy in order to get more funding.

2) Go and read the scientific papers themselves, rather than repeating what someone told you in the pub or what the press have told you. Then we will have an informed debate without using words like "extremist" and "propaganda"


Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
21 Nov 2012 1:37PM
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^^^ I agree with you...and I might be labelled a sceptic, as I have doubts about the control we have over climate change, although I'm a strong supporter of anything that will minimise our footprint, just not pushed by wrongly interpreted information. To clarify my comments, I wasn't referring to the scientific 'peer-reviewed' research as propaganda & extremists, as I definitely don't have the education (or brain cells) to understand the intricate details.

My comment-
"They also have a habit of making decisions from media hype and local extremists that are pushing their own agendas in order to gain local support." also "climate change scare mongers"

My comments were loosely targeted at those who read a snippet of the journals, or make their own assumptions and then push for immediate change in government or council without the proper research. Many of these people hold powerful positions in either government &/or media. The Carbon Tax is a good example of a knee-jerk reaction to hype.

My broad-brush on the scientists lining their own pockets for funding was a bit harsh and doesn't represent the majority, although I don't doubt that this is the case in 'some' where the ego & ambition drives many to verify their own hypotheses, regardless of the scientific value. The funding is tipped toward proving climate change and the effects...I haven't heard of any funding made available for disproving it, and if climate change were scientifically disproved, I'd assume that the masses would string up the scientists in question.

harry potter
VIC, 2777 posts
21 Nov 2012 2:07PM
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Remember the Y2K Bug ???

kiteboy dave
QLD, 6525 posts
21 Nov 2012 2:21PM
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Sailhack thanks for coming back and making some great reasoned responses. Can't say I agree but you put forward a logical well argued case for what you believe, which leads to good discussion.

I'll add my piece when I'm not on lunch at work - but let me say that any scientific body that didn't follow the best scientific method (ie lied or exaggerated) would get picked up and ridiculed by their peers very very quickly. So it's not in their interest.

Harry potter - as an ex IT, the y2K bug is actually a really good example of a looming problem that was almost completely averted thanks to prior preparation and planning and lots of hard work. Clearly overhyped by the media, but then again thanks to the media every IT dept in the world allocated resources and cleaned up their own little problem areas.

lightwood
VIC, 392 posts
21 Nov 2012 4:30PM
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kiteboy dave said...

but let me say that any scientific body that didn't follow the best scientific method (ie lied or exaggerated) would get picked up and ridiculed by their peers very very quickly. So it's not in their interest.

.


You mean like the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit?

Didn't really happen did it, all they got were excuses.

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
21 Nov 2012 1:38PM
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kiteboy dave said...
...
I'll add my piece when I'm not on lunch at work -


Hmmm,.. a govmint job is it?

FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
21 Nov 2012 5:27PM
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I know some "scientists" and they all tell me it's a bs status quo club, no independent thought allowed or you'll be ridiculed and will never get another grant.

You publish exactly what you are being paid to publish, and in your spare time you talk it up so as to become more recognized.

Nothing that doesn't have the support of your fellow club members ever gets published, this is called peer review.
They all hate it, cos it's like a religion, no debate you follow or you're not a scientist.

One likened it to Paddington station (London), you choose a line and you get on the train.

My point: There are no "Existing climate cycle" lines in science, it's been closed.

Simondo
VIC, 8020 posts
21 Nov 2012 6:20PM
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The beaches are growing, the ocean is receding, and then the sea level rises.

Ian K
WA, 4048 posts
21 Nov 2012 4:07PM
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Your sand dunes are growing quicker than the ocean is rising. But if the icecaps go the ocean has 60 to 80 metres up it's sleeve. As geological time goes, ice caps are the exception, we're mostly ice free. The current interglacial is due to end any millenium now. You can see how long the last interglacial 120,000 yrs ago lasted.




Maybe get a blister on your little finger, maybe get a blister on your thumb.




landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
25 Nov 2012 11:16PM
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so is the sea level going up or down?Im so confused I built for all outcomes



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Beach Growth (not erosion)" started by Simondo