Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

CO2 Taxation Australia

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Created by FlySurfer > 9 months ago, 8 Jul 2011
FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
3 Aug 2011 11:20PM
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busterwa said...

"CARBON TAX is to prevent the global western world going broke"


Why is it going broke? Who controls the western world?

busterwa
3777 posts
3 Aug 2011 11:12PM
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Purchase 10 items from Big W and look at where is is manufactured.

japie
NSW, 6932 posts
4 Aug 2011 5:45AM
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I have a problem getting my head around the Orwellian logic used in favour of this tax.

There is a huge amount of talk about sequestering carbon, (don't you just love that word, sequestering, it makes nearly every thing okay), sequestering carbon in the ground. Land owners and prospective land owners are rubbing their hands in glee at the profits to be made SEQUESTERING carbon. We had better just hope that their profits are not so attractive as to prevent them from growing food entirely.

Anyhow, here we are, about to be taxed on emissions from the energy industry which is going to make additional profit from the actual emissions themselves by putting it back into the ground and I have to ask myself this, that if it is such a huge priority to prevent carbon from getting into the atmosphere WHY THE FARK DO WE NOT JUST LEAVE IT IN THE GROUND TO START WITH.

I can just see George Orwell shaking his head and saying I told you so but you would not listen.

cisco
QLD, 12337 posts
4 Aug 2011 10:28AM
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Sequester:- seclude, isolate, set apart

cisco
QLD, 12337 posts
4 Aug 2011 10:33AM
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log man said...

Gunna1 said...

log man said...

" welfare recipients and n'eer do wells ".......Yeah couldn't agree more , the sooner those old age pensioners **** off, the better off we'll all be

I was actually referring to the ever increasing welfare group who selfishly sit back and take take take and only vote for whoever offers them the most this week!


I'm not out of context, I'm pointing out the the horrible linkage Cisco made in the first post.


You know exactly what and who I meant. Lazy busturds that won't get off their butts and others who just suck the system.

log man
VIC, 8289 posts
4 Aug 2011 12:40PM
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"This country is already buckling under the weight of welfare hand outs and now hardly is the time to be increasing them".

Is it????, If you look at the entirety of government spending do you think that unworthy welfare recipients are such a huge drain on the public purse? And by unworthy, are we talking about tax breaks given to family trusts, are we talking tax breaks to negatively gear, what about the money we pay to millionaires to help them with their health insurance? What about eliminating funding to my local school, you know the school that has just built their second water polo pool, to match their new underground carpark,and their new performing arts centre????? no fair enough pick on single mums, disability pensioners and the unemployed.....easy targets

Little Jon
NSW, 2115 posts
4 Aug 2011 2:08PM
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Gunna1 said...

log man said...

" welfare recipients and n'eer do wells ".......Yeah couldn't agree more , the sooner those old age pensioners **** off, the better off we'll all be

Gee Log, not like you to take things out of context. for you info i think a pensioner who has worked hard, saved their hard earned and retired on a healthy income should still get the same entitlements as someone who has squandered and lived off the country all their lives, not be penalised financially for doing the right thing. I was actually referring to the ever increasing welfare group who selfishly sit back and take take take and only vote for whoever offers them the most this week!


You mean you're refferring to corporate welfare and middle class welfare?

Little Jon
NSW, 2115 posts
4 Aug 2011 2:09PM
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pweedas said...

nebbian said...

A point that a lot of people seem to be missing is...

This system is revenue-neutral.


I think that's because most people believe it will be effect neutral.

In any case, you should have said "overall revenue neutral"

By the governments own announcements, 7 out of 10 households will be no worse off or even better off.
Nine out of ten households will get at least some compensation.

Logically then, this means the final one out of ten households will have to pay for the whole program.
Sounds like another socialist wealth re-distribution program to me.



Yeah that's right, bring it on now, I want my tax cuts, whatever is best for me is how I vote, same as everyone else except those who care about the environment and voted green.

Little Jon
NSW, 2115 posts
4 Aug 2011 2:12PM
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If you think a miniscule carbon tax is bad, imagine what the GST did to the economy.

FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
4 Aug 2011 3:19PM
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busterwa said...

Purchase 10 items from Big W and look at where is is manufactured.


Yes, but a lot of the companies that make the stuff in that country (with a manipulated currency to under cut everyone) are western, so the profit is repatriated.
Except for those middle farkers in our malls.

They buy cheap Chinese crap by the kg... yes clothes by the kg then sell it to us for $90... Kathmandu comes to mind.

ADS
WA, 365 posts
4 Aug 2011 1:52PM
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SomeOtherGuy
NSW, 807 posts
4 Aug 2011 6:34PM
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^^^

It's also weightless according to Mr Abbott!

cisco
QLD, 12337 posts
4 Aug 2011 9:07PM
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log man said...
And by unworthy, are we talking about tax breaks given to family trusts, are we talking tax breaks to negatively gear, what about the money we pay to millionaires to help them with their health insurance? What about eliminating funding to my local school, you know the school that has just built their second water polo pool, to match their new underground carpark,and their new performing arts centre?????


Like I said "others who suck the system."

SomeOtherGuy
NSW, 807 posts
4 Aug 2011 9:28PM
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Best interview on Lateline for quite a while was on last night. Don't think it's on Yoochoob but with any luck, this link should play it for you:

www.abc.net.au/reslib/201108/r808784_7199324.asx

otherwise, go to www.abc.net/lateline and look for the Joe Hockey interview.

Gotta love Joe... honestly! If only he'd spend as much time studying his party's policies as he does putting the boot into the other guys he'd probably do really well.

cisco
QLD, 12337 posts
4 Aug 2011 10:04PM
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I do love Joe. I didn't see that he was putting the boot in but that he was pointing out how much better the coalition's policies are.

When you have a guy that says:- "It is a good idea for an individual to pay down debt and it is also a good idea for government to pay down debt.", you have a bread and butter treasurer which is what we need.

He who has the cash wields the power. Gillard's lot are spending money on worthless things like there is no tomorrow and need the carbon tax to fund their handout policies.

I suppose if you PLAN on being one of the FORTY you would want to get as many of the handouts as you can before you step off the end of the plank.

SomeOtherGuy
NSW, 807 posts
4 Aug 2011 10:29PM
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cisco said...

I do love Joe. I didn't see that he was putting the boot in but that he was pointing out how much better the coalition's policies are.

When you have a guy that says:- "It is a good idea for an individual to pay down debt and it is also a good idea for government to pay down debt.", you have a bread and butter treasurer which is what we need.

He who has the cash wields the power. Gillard's lot are spending money on worthless things like there is no tomorrow and need the carbon tax to fund their handout policies.

I suppose if you PLAN on being one of the FORTY you would want to get as many of the handouts as you can before you step off the end of the plank.


I was thinking more about the bit where he was being asked about the "Green Army". Clearly, he wasn't on top of it - after all, what's 750 mill or so?

I got the feeling Abbott had a thought bubble and sprung that one on them and now they're all hoping it'll just fade away.

log man
VIC, 8289 posts
5 Aug 2011 12:26AM
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cisco said...

log man said...
And by unworthy, are we talking about tax breaks given to family trusts, are we talking tax breaks to negatively gear, what about the money we pay to millionaires to help them with their health insurance? What about eliminating funding to my local school, you know the school that has just built their second water polo pool, to match their new underground carpark,and their new performing arts centre?????


Like I said "others who suck the system."



Sorry Cisco, let me get this straight, so you want to abolish tax breaks for family trusts, cut funding for private schools,end the negative gearing system,end tax breaks for millionaires on private health funds........ well your more likely to get some progress there by voting Labor... I'll send you a how to vote card

log man
VIC, 8289 posts
5 Aug 2011 12:32AM
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"Gillard's lot are spending money on worthless things like there is no tomorrow" Given that the NBN is a communication system for the next century, and high speed rail is a transport system for the next century, it makes sense to try to make sure there IS a next century by putting a price on carbon.

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
5 Aug 2011 12:48PM
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cisco said...

I do love Joe. I didn't see that he was putting the boot in but that he was pointing out how much better the coalition's policies are.

When you have a guy that says:- "It is a good idea for an individual to pay down debt...


Tell that to the retail sector.

Hey on that whole Nolan's Transport thing. That's a pretty good example.

1. Transport companies like Nolan's are exempt from the carbon tax, until 2014 when the ETS kicks in. My guess would be they will stay exempt then too, the reason being that they can't switch to a greener alternative. The same reason they are exempt now. Taxing companies like this achieves nothing until there is a viable green alternative for them to switch to.

2. Worst case scenario for Nolans: #1 above is ignored and they are taxed at approx $3.3m/year. Spread across 125 trucks = $26K/year for each truck, or about $100/day if they're working 5 days a week (or is it 24/7?)

Can somebody answer me how much approximately a truck full of goods costs to ship, say Brisbane > Sydney which takes about a day? Would an extra $100 make a difference? Could you divide that $100 across all the goods in the truck and charge us, who are getting $2K+ in tax breaks the difference?

But really I think you'll find transport companies that have no green alternative will continue to fall under an exemption. The entire point of the tax is lost on these exceptions and better placed against another company that can go greener/cheaper.

FlySurfer
NSW, 4453 posts
5 Aug 2011 3:29PM
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log man said...
it makes sense to try to make sure there IS a next century by putting a price on carbon.


log man
VIC, 8289 posts
5 Aug 2011 3:35PM
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^^

cisco
QLD, 12337 posts
5 Aug 2011 5:31PM
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log man said...

"Gillard's lot are spending money on worthless things like there is no tomorrow" Given that the NBN is a communication system for the next century, and high speed rail is a transport system for the next century, it makes sense to try to make sure there IS a next century by putting a price on carbon.


Posted 5 minutes ago
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

laff77 said...

cisco said...

I think we should build the Darwin to Melbourne high speed mag lev goods rail line through the heartlands first.

It will reduce the turnaround time of cargo ships coming to Australia from six weeks to six days.


Care to back that up with some facts?

Have you seen the port infrastructure in Darwin and compared to the likes of a Melbourne or Sydney container terminal? We won't even touch on general cargo or motor vehicle handling and storage facilities.

Since when did it take six weeks to sail from Darwin or even Singapore for that matter to Melbourne?

Then Cisco said:-


I have read a report on it but sorry can't give you a reference to it.

Yes of course a new container terminal in Darwin has to be part of it. Darwin's proximity to Indonesia and the huge port there (actually two very close together but regarded as one) is one of the defining factors.

No it does not take six weeks to sail from Darwin or Singapore to Melbourne. A week would probably do it.

What takes time is negotiating the Great Barrier Reef, visiting Newcastle or Sydney on the way through, negotiating the Pinch Gut at Port Phillip Bay and having to anchor off the roads while waiting their turn to enter and dock at different ports.

The Darwin to Melbourne through the Heartlands Rail Line is based on it being an arterial route with collection and distribution points along the way and the whole thing would be co-ordinated by a sophisticated supply, distribution and tracking hardware and software system.

It is not pie in the sky stuff. What is pie in the sky is getting a government with enough political will to do it. It has been talked about but they want private enterprise to build it. That wont happen.

It would be a far greater Nation Building Project than the NBN and the NBN would have to be attached to it figureatively speaking.

The benefits of it are huge and include reducing the damage risk to the G. B. Reef, reducing pollution from ship's ballast water that has killed Port Phillip Bay, removeing heavy transport trucks from interstate highways and placeing them on local distribution routes and revitalising the outback rural towns.

Google it up and see what you get. Back to you laff77.




log man
VIC, 8289 posts
5 Aug 2011 5:52PM
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cisco said...

log man said...

"Gillard's lot are spending money on worthless things like there is no tomorrow" Given that the NBN is a communication system for the next century, and high speed rail is a transport system for the next century, it makes sense to try to make sure there IS a next century by putting a price on carbon.


Posted 5 minutes ago
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

laff77 said...

cisco said...

I think we should build the Darwin to Melbourne high speed mag lev goods rail line through the heartlands first.

It will reduce the turnaround time of cargo ships coming to Australia from six weeks to six days.


Care to back that up with some facts?

Have you seen the port infrastructure in Darwin and compared to the likes of a Melbourne or Sydney container terminal? We won't even touch on general cargo or motor vehicle handling and storage facilities.

Since when did it take six weeks to sail from Darwin or even Singapore for that matter to Melbourne?

Then Cisco said:-


I have read a report on it but sorry can't give you a reference to it.

Yes of course a new container terminal in Darwin has to be part of it. Darwin's proximity to Indonesia and the huge port there (actually two very close together but regarded as one) is one of the defining factors.

No it does not take six weeks to sail from Darwin or Singapore to Melbourne. A week would probably do it.

What takes time is negotiating the Great Barrier Reef, visiting Newcastle or Sydney on the way through, negotiating the Pinch Gut at Port Phillip Bay and having to anchor off the roads while waiting their turn to enter and dock at different ports.

The Darwin to Melbourne through the Heartlands Rail Line is based on it being an arterial route with collection and distribution points along the way and the whole thing would be co-ordinated by a sophisticated supply, distribution and tracking hardware and software system.

It is not pie in the sky stuff. What is pie in the sky is getting a government with enough political will to do it. It has been talked about but they want private enterprise to build it. That wont happen.

It would be a far greater Nation Building Project than the NBN and the NBN would have to be attached to it figureatively speaking.

The benefits of it are huge and include reducing the damage risk to the G. B. Reef, reducing pollution from ship's ballast water that has killed Port Phillip Bay, removeing heavy transport trucks from interstate highways and placeing them on local distribution routes and revitalising the outback rural towns.

Google it up and see what you get. Back to you laff77.






Yep I reckon it's a great idea Cisco

cisco
QLD, 12337 posts
5 Aug 2011 9:42PM
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log man said...
Yep I reckon it's a great idea Cisco


So does this constitute a bipartisan agreement?

Cisco for prime minister and log man keeping the busturd honest?? LOL

log man
VIC, 8289 posts
5 Aug 2011 11:08PM
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cisco said...

log man said...
Yep I reckon it's a great idea Cisco


So does this constitute a bipartisan agreement?

Cisco for prime minister and log man keeping the busturd honest?? LOL



I'll do a deal with ya Cisco, you can be prime minister and minister for transport if I can be minister for public re education and Australian cricket captain....... oh and manager of the parliamentary bar

SomeOtherGuy
NSW, 807 posts
6 Aug 2011 1:16AM
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FlySurfer said...

log man said...
it makes sense to try to make sure there IS a next century by putting a price on carbon.







FlyBoy, you idiot. Haven't you learned yet?

That picture only works when you are looking at it!



By the way, your ma says says hi


cisco
QLD, 12337 posts
6 Aug 2011 3:34PM
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Copy and paste from http://cecaust.com.au/main.asp?sub=global_warming&id=main.html

Nature craves more carbon dioxide
Government policies to force drastic cuts in carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions, out of fear of CO2 as a "pollutant", are insane-a fact underscored by recent testimony before the U.S. Senate by award-winning Princeton University physicist Dr. Will Happer.

In the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee hearings on 25th February, Dr. Happer declared man-made global warming fears were "mistaken" and noted that the Earth is currently in a "CO2 famine."

Dr. Happer stands alongside more than 31,000 scientists who have signed a petition opposing the quack science of global warming-a petition which makes the specific point that "there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth."

The global average atmospheric CO2 concentration is currently a tiny 387 ppm (parts per million)-just a trace gas-and trees and plants are craving for more, yet fools are threatening to decimate our economy, in order to reduce this life-giving gas. In the last 600 million years of Earth's history, only the Carboniferous Period (approximately 300 million years ago) and our present age, the Quaternary Period, have witnessed CO2 levels less than 400 ppm.

Commercial greenhouse operators are advised to add enough CO2 to maintain about 1,000 ppm around their plants. Carbon dioxide generators for greenhouse operators produce CO2 by burning liquid propane or natural gas. The healthy plants respond just as plants have responded for most of the history of life on earth when CO2 concentrations were naturally this high, if not higher.

The dinosaurs survived just fine when CO2 concentrations exceeded 2,000 ppm and 450 million years ago, late in the Ordovician Period, the earth went into an Ice Age when carbon dioxide levels exceeded 4,000 ppm-so much for CO2 induced global warming! Coral has thrived throughout these enormous natural climatic and atmospheric changes.

Exhaled human breath contains about 4% CO2. That is 40,000 ppm-levels which carbon reduction fanatics would consider to be concentrated pollution.

Any carbon tax, or emissions trading scheme (cap-and-trade) would destroy essential industries and the human population which depends upon those industries, on the basis of a clear fraud, and therefore must be vigorously opposed.

dinsdale
WA, 1227 posts
7 Aug 2011 12:36AM
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Copy/paste:

Even the WSJ criticises Julia!

Yes, the Wall St Journal has had a piece on how NO-ONE else is doing carbon taxing (or the schemes are failing) - and how this carbon tax will cripple the economy.
_______________________________________

The Last Carbon Taxer

Wall St Journal, REVIEW & OUTLOOK ASIA - JULY 17, 2011,
# Carbon cap and trade is dead in America, the Chicago emissions trading exchange has folded, and European nations keep fudging on their Kyoto Protocol promises. But Al Gore's great green hope still has a champion: Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard, who announced last week that her government will impose a cap-and-tax regime.

Her Labor Party-led coalition wants 500 of the country's "biggest polluters" to buy carbon permits issued by the government, starting next year. Canberra would then create new bureaucracies to re-allocate that money to interest groups and selected businesses, to the tune of billions of dollars annually.

The news has caused a public uproar—not least because Ms. Gillard ran and won last year on an explicit promise not to pursue such policies. She ousted her predecessor in a backroom coup after his popularity tanked because of climate-change boosterism and promises to raise taxes. But Ms. Gillard's Green coalition partners hold the balance of power in parliament and pushed hard for cap and trade. The PM caved and has now been labeled "Juliar" in the popular press.

The Gillard government estimates its plan will increase electricity costs by 10% and gasoline by 9%—increases it calls "modest." That's easy for politicians to say. In a nationwide poll taken after the announcement, 60% of voters opposed the tax and 68% said they'd be financially worse off because of it. Ms. Gillard's popularity has plumbed new lows.
The plan is economically damaging enough that even the normally timid business lobby—many of whose members originally supported climate-change legislation—is speaking up. Opposition leader Tony Abbott slammed the plan as "socialism masquerading as environmentalism," and he has a point. The government plans to use some of the carbon tax receipts to triple the income threshold before the income tax hits. In other words, this is in part a scheme to redistribute income from energy users to Labor voters. It is an odd kind of tax reform that narrows the tax base.

All of this for negligible environmental benefits. Australia emits 1.5% of the world's greenhouse gases. Even if the country cut its emissions to zero, the move would do little to reduce global emissions. Australia's per-capita emissions are high compared to other developed nations because it's a sparsely populated continent blessed with an abundance of natural resources. Aussies have developed profitable, world-class natural resource and energy businesses that have lifted incomes at home and helped supply developing countries like China and India. This is bad?

It is if you believe in the theology that loathes carbon fuels and wants government to allocate the means of power production. In a speech Thursday, Ms. Gillard vowed to press forward with cap and tax and said that her convictions are "very deeply held." We'll see if her government can survive them.

dinsdale
WA, 1227 posts
7 Aug 2011 12:57AM
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How the science got 'settled ...


laceys lane
QLD, 19803 posts
7 Aug 2011 11:38AM
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some other guy must be somewhere else today or working on nifty retort



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"CO2 Taxation Australia" started by FlySurfer