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Cosmology nerdery

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Created by NotWal > 9 months ago, 10 Feb 2013
Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
13 Feb 2013 12:59PM
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sorry to disappoint you but that is not something you could wiki or google, since I am quoting nobody but myself....
the only thing you could do is to perform experiment to prove me wrong ...but not that one with the cuckoo clock sent on ISS...
think about that... at Planc scale things are so small that you could not split them anymore...if that will be your fundamental time unit/interval could not be smaller or bigger depending on circumstances...
Lets do following experiment...
You have identical two cookoo clocks , one sitting at your home and another one with your friend orbiting ISS with close to light speed....both so accurate that measure the time in Planck time increments...you walkie-talkie your friend to compare readings - everytime you count one Planc unit you call your friend and because he is going much faster, time is slower,, evertime he has zero readings....one day he has the same reading as you... then nothing again...
then you may want to walkie-talkie to Einstein to review...

Skid
QLD, 1499 posts
13 Feb 2013 1:19PM
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Macroscien said...
evlPanda said...
No. You will never see the very early universe.

that is not necessarily true unless we discard time travel ultimately


What do we want?
Time travel!
When do we want it?
It's irrelevant!

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
13 Feb 2013 3:51PM
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Macroscien said...
sorry to disappoint you but that is not something you could wiki or google, since I am quoting nobody but myself....
the only thing you could do is to perform experiment to prove me wrong ...but not that one with the cuckoo clock sent on ISS...
think about that... at Planc scale things are so small that you could not split them anymore...if that will be your fundamental time unit/interval could not be smaller or bigger depending on circumstances...
Lets do following experiment...
You have identical two cookoo clocks , one sitting at your home and another one with your friend orbiting ISS with close to light speed....both so accurate that measure the time in Planck time increments...you walkie-talkie your friend to compare readings - everytime you count one Planc unit you call your friend and because he is going much faster, time is slower,, evertime he has zero readings....one day he has the same reading as you... then nothing again...
then you may want to walkie-talkie to Einstein to review...



huh?

I'll try: So you want to perform an experiment with two super accurate clocks? I'm quite lost on "Planck time increments" but I assume you want as accurate as possible. How about an atomic clock? It will be accurate enough for your experiment. If not explain why not.

Then you've the ISS orbiting Earth at close to light speed. That's not how orbits work but I guess you mean we have something really moving but not away from us, so we can keep in contact. (I'm also not going to include the effect the g-forces would be having on your time experiment looping the earth at close to c).

Then we compare times on both clocks and we expect because of time dilation Major Tom's clock in "orbit" to be going much slower.

So far nothing new. This happens all the time. You might like a complete explanation from the GPS forum where they added Doppler shifting, how relevant to this topic! (BTW guys that was fn impressive)

...but then you expect zero readings (?) one day, same readings/time the next, then nothing again. what does this mean?




Before you go saying that clock isn't accurate enough (it easily is) here's a camera I found.


Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
13 Feb 2013 6:36PM
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There is more to this story
Before your friend went in the cosmos to perform this cookoo clock experiment you gave him beautiful flower pot ( or something similar could be weed actually ) , but at same time Schrodinger's wife gave him a cat for the trip.
Once in space you called him to check how the plant is doing. He told you that plant is dead because cat pee to the pot. Angry as hell you asked your best friend to kill that bastard cat now.
As you all know all good things takes some time, especially on space station spinning around the Earth at near light speed. Friend needs to find a shotgun on the space station, load that slug into barrel, watch not to shot himself into foot in zero gravity, and aim that bustard cat.
To kill the time you went to the pub for e beer and told whole story to your mates.
They began bid instantly:
1) the cat is dead by now,
2)No mate, friend didn't killed the cat so must be alive
3) Since we don't really know could be either dead or alive said the rest

You took the money, split three ways and walkie-talkie your space friend straight from the pub to check who won the gamble.
Call to space was a bit fuzzy but the answer was clear 1) Cat is not alive 2) cat is not dead either 3)Cat is not even dead and alive 4)He put the cat into the freezer, so is not moving at least.
Not the sort of answer you expect from your best friend.
Now try explain to your mates why you need to keep their money . Nobody guess.!
( for those more familiar take the cat for the spin )

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
13 Feb 2013 4:45PM
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^^ Gold Macro

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
13 Feb 2013 7:49PM
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Imagine so ! You called your friend on the space station spinning around the Earth at near light speed a week later and he told you that since the time the cat is dead
( ok in the freezer to be correct ) , space station get infested with the single mouse that escaped from the lab !
Running around like crazy. Once your friend try to guard the door to the storeroom with tasty smelly cheese mouse run through other door to pilot room where his chocolate is hidden under the table.
Holly crap without your help this one small white mouse will damage all his precious supply.
So you did advise to setup camera booby trap to spy on the mouse.
Once camera detect the mouse eating the cheese , turn the servo that slap the door, shut, to trap them stupid mouse inside one room. Then he could crawl slowly with the crow bar to teach the mouse the lesson.
So hid did. Before getting sleep he setup that trap on both doors to the cheese and chocolate room to check where the mouse went ....
In the morning you did video skype your friend to check on the kill.
Surpassingly instead of bloody mouse stain on the floor you found your friend still standing by the doors scratching his head with crow bar! Both door closed! One mouse, two rooms, both doors closed!! Where is the mouse? How it is possible ??

No worries, mate you did said. Have a look at video recorded on the camera . He did and that is when you heard the stumbling sound of your friend collapsing unconscious on the floor. In zero gravity you did said to yourself, that is strange...
When you look at the security video you did get a bit more confused. One small white mouse sharing the chocolate and cheese with herself in one room...
It must be cheap Chinese optics in the cameras this days you did calm down yourself...
Unless there is other explanation???

(In the strange cosmos mouse may looks or behave like a snake (with her tail) , get trough both doors simultaneously )

Mark _australia
WA, 22284 posts
13 Feb 2013 6:27PM
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Macro's version of Schroedinger's cat and relativity, all in one post, is the funniest sh!t on the interwebs, ever.

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
14 Feb 2013 10:48AM
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...

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
14 Feb 2013 10:19AM
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Hello Huston!
We may have a problem with that cookoo clock expedition. For the big trip like that with a lot of crew on board: 1 human , I cat and one mouse the fridge suppose to be well stuffed with supply's.
But the night before the ship departure Mr Higgs responsible for provisions get drunk at the pub and forget to load the whole bison into the ship fridge that should last for the trip.

That is not all bad news. Provision is a least on our worry list.
Eventually mouse could eat that cheese, cat eat the mouse and human eat the cat.
Without that bison mass in the fridge the ship is now very light, weight almost nothing indeed.
Nobody check the fridge and when we kick up ship into orbit as usual now almost empty ship went much faster and further that we did expect.
In fact when our friend turn the head lights on the ship to see to road ahead clear , his road lights that should shine a parsec in the front, turned soon into short lights and eventually into tail light, cause our guy was going with the same speed as a light itself....
I am telling you what a bumpy ride it was without the lights thought dark like nite cosmos.
Our communication with the ship become also very expensive and Telstra instead of usual local orbital call started charge us long distance with roaming fee on top.
At some stage we almost lost that communication completely as Telstra technicians guy get a difficulty to roll the fiber cable behind the ship fast enough or what ether they use for communications this days. When they did try microwaves has also problem to keep up with speeding at light speed run away ship.

At some stage he almost bump into something that seems to be completely black hole in the road.
He swivel ship rudders suddenly and managed to turn the ship almost on the dime, just around that nasty hole, catching almost one tire onto the hole.
Luckily that maneuver turned ship 180 degree and she flow back exactly to the same spot that start from.
In about six months our guy friend was happily and healthy back home again . The only sustained damage is possibly our friend expensive Swiss wrist watch. As he turned sharply must bumped into something. As whole trip took few months, friend cosmonaut swear to God that for him was so much enjoyment that feel like minutes only. So quick indeed that he didn't managed to grill that frozen cat by the window when passing local star to eat it on dinner. Cosmic delusion i must say.
Luckily he still have that docket for that expensive Swiss watch and could claim full refund on it.
Bought just before 6 month long trip still show only few hours passed. Must be dead spring or battery flat i guess....
Luckily we avoided speeding ticket by cosmic police too. It seems that our speeding ship vehicle somehow jammed their radar. On one way their radar turned red, then blue then blow up completely.
Must be good tip for Mythbastards. Run your Hayabusa at lighting speed indeed and the road radar don't have a chance to blink even.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
14 Feb 2013 11:49AM
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evlPanda said...

No. You will never see the very early universe...
Prove otherwise.


On a serious note why couldn't it just happen that photon carrying that first impression of BIG BANG couldn't turn on something or slow down on something to reach us now ?
The only problem I can see that we are looking in wrong direction. We look into the center of Universe where everything started , since we could see something coming back from the fringe of Universe already.
One may say that there is nothing to bounce the photon back, but that is not completely true as we can see matter could clump and swirl by itself throwing that early stuff back now where come from.
If you look at BigBang it is not just simple explosion that throw all the stuff equally in centrifugal direction and all is going in straight lines ever since.

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
14 Feb 2013 3:53PM
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^^^ I want some of whatever you grow in your herb garden!

NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
14 Feb 2013 3:02PM
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Macroscien said...
dinsdale said...
Macroscien said...
in mine theoretical model the only fundamental constant is the TIME

Hmmm. Unfortunately TIME isn't a constant either. We/you can (with enough money) conduct empirical experiments to demonstrate time shift with speed.

It's been done.



That is where common mistake lay (in such reasoning) because you do measure time using this derivatives variables... I leave it here for e-archaeologists to decide...


I suspect that e-archeologists would only be interested in your proposal as yet another example of the millions of erroneous judgements about the Theory of Relativity that appear on forums everywhere.

If you want to look into the nuts and bolts of it there are some accessible lectures on Y-tube from Stanford.

NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
14 Feb 2013 4:11PM
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Macroscien said...
evlPanda said...

No. You will never see the very early universe...
Prove otherwise.


On a serious note why couldn't it just happen that photon carrying that first impression of BIG BANG couldn't turn on something or slow down on something to reach us now ?
The only problem I can see that we are looking in wrong direction. We look into the center of Universe where everything started , since we could see something coming back from the fringe of Universe already.
One may say that there is nothing to bounce the photon back, but that is not completely true as we can see matter could clump and swirl by itself throwing that early stuff back now where come from.
If you look at BigBang it is not just simple explosion that throw all the stuff equally in centrifugal direction and all is going in straight lines ever since.


Photons from the BB all got caught up in the plasma era that went on for 380,000 years. If you could see it then it would look like the inside of a fluoro tube. The CMBR is what it looks like now.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
14 Feb 2013 5:36PM
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NotWal said...
The CMBR is what it looks like now.

Just a short note to the kinder e-archaeologist reviewing this ancient artifact.
Some interlocutors here could mixed photon and microwaves. Since all your kinder specialists know that although there both waves there are not exactly the same in nature.
That confusion could be explained by latest progress in access to pornography
Since till recently only pure photons (380 to 740nm) were able to carry visual image from playboy paper magazine to human light detectors, recent progress allow engage all sorts of waves to do this same, with airports competing with peep shows for now:

beside cmbr leftower doesn't carry much info about BB intself since most were lost in translation...

NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
14 Feb 2013 7:02PM
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Wow T-rays. Get em while they're still legal.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
14 Feb 2013 8:48PM
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If I understand Skid intention correctly he wants to see the BigBang with his naked eye not some bubbling mud in microwave oven. Skid can see everything from 380nm to 740 nm. So please take a calculator, convert his visible spectrum by universe expansion rate and we know at least what we should look for around to show Skid that exploding big thing.
Panda is treacherous enough ( and almost right) that something that was visible once is not longer in our visible spectrum.
So Skid even looking straight into BigBang barrel can't see microwaves.
We can go this way forever. Again Skid will not be able to see with his eyes whole BB from beginning till culmination only that part that produced visible today spectrum (if any).
Funny a bit that Skid could see Xray now with his naked eye like the Batman.

For scientific illustration purposes only:

This is how Big Bang looks today - all in microwaves and wrinkles




This is how Skid wants it ( BigBang) to see _all in bright, live colors and clear





Skid
QLD, 1499 posts
14 Feb 2013 11:48PM
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^^^ Macroscien, I'm a bit puzzled...
What did I say to prompt your above post? I think you have mentioned me more in one post than I have ever been mentioned in the entire history of seabreeze...

With all due respect, I think you should spend a bit less time in the sun...

Mark _australia
WA, 22284 posts
14 Feb 2013 9:54PM
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NotWal said...
Photons from the BB all got caught up in the plasma era that went on for 380,000 years. If you could see it then it would look like the inside of a fluoro tube. The CMBR is what it looks like now.



Hang on.

How the fk do we know that?

Is that the same big bang that could not work so they postulated the existence of dark matter, which makes up heaps of the universe (like 98%?) but is still as yet unobserved?

This is the issue I have. Theories built upon other as-yet-unproven theories. Used to refute another theory.
Not science - faith.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
15 Feb 2013 12:23AM
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evlPanda said...
^ Please don't let that stop you Macro.

NotWal said...

Hubble has spotted a galaxy 13.3 billion light years away. The universe was only 0.47 billion years old when that light set off.

One wonders if it's possible to spot the boundaries of the very early universe.


Your answer:

Skid said...
Matter cannot travel faster than light, but (I am told) space can expand at a rate faster than the speed of light...


No. You will never see the very early universe.



Hi Skid no offence please.

I just use your nick a example of an observer (or maybe that was Notwal that Panda... was referring to? ) , that want to see the beginning of our Universe, that 's it
to prove that is actually possible...

NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
15 Feb 2013 2:57AM
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Mark _australia said...

How the fk do we know that?

Is that the same big bang that could not work so they postulated the existence of dark matter, which makes up heaps of the universe (like 98%?) but is still as yet unobserved?

This is the issue I have. Theories built upon other as-yet-unproven theories. Used to refute another theory.
Not science - faith.


No its part of the standard model. It was hypothesized part and parcel with the standard model and there is support for it in the cmbr. The number of years for the duration is not firmly agreed but the theory is still holding up.

Not faith, science. It will continue to be tested until it fails or doesn't. If it fails its abandoned. That's the way it works.

I don't know what dark matter has to do with the Big Bang. Dark matter was proposed to provide the additional mass necessary to keep galaxies together and to account for the orbital velocities of stars in galaxies. They are slower than the laws of motion allow given the observable mass. There is other evidence for it namely in colliding galaxies and gravitational lensing.

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
15 Feb 2013 11:39AM
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Dark matter is like the shark you cannot see. We know it's there, somewhere.

NotWal said...
I suspect that e-archeologists would only be interested in your proposal as yet another example of the millions of erroneous judgements about the Theory of Relativity that appear on forums everywhere.

If you want to look into the nuts and bolts of it there are some accessible lectures on Y-tube from Stanford.


Here is a great explanation in single syllable words:
www.light-science.com


The whole thing trips me out when you look at it all at a physical level, not just in your mind. Don't confuse the map with the territory.
I am constantly accelerating to nowhere in particular at 1G.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
15 Feb 2013 11:14AM
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evlPanda said...

I am constantly accelerating to nowhere in particular at 1G.

So how much you will weight after xxx years ? (ok I sould say what will be your mass after that time ?)
Re gravity force experiment
The popular feeling is that if your favorite Dr.Slosson author put you into his cardboard box and ask you to guess where are you now:
1) Standing on the floor at your home
2) In zero gravity space in the rocket accelerating at 1G
It is really hard to you to say or spot the difference.....

Is it ??

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
15 Feb 2013 11:36AM
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What if ??
What if the single quant represent entangled in the time tiny microcosm (whole tiny piece of universe)?

External measurement experiment (Dr Slosson Cardboard box experiment)

If that tiny microcosm is moving at the rate, the external measurement (made by us outside) will be exactly the same you wish :
-quant has a mass to cause gravity force,
or
-no he hasn't but accelerate ;

amazingly both seems to be true....

What if our Universe is not expanding at all but this tiny tiny quantum bobbles are constantly expanding filling the space (or shrinking doesn't really matter) ??

Ian K
WA, 4048 posts
15 Feb 2013 9:41AM
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Mark _australia said...
NotWal said...
Photons from the BB all got caught up in the plasma era that went on for 380,000 years. If you could see it then it would look like the inside of a fluoro tube. The CMBR is what it looks like now.



Hang on.

How the fk do we know that?

Is that the same big bang that could not work so they postulated the existence of dark matter, which makes up heaps of the universe (like 98%?) but is still as yet unobserved?

This is the issue I have. Theories built upon other as-yet-unproven theories. Used to refute another theory.
Not science - faith.




Dark matter is nowhere near as bizarre as quantum mechanics. Imagine the theories built on as-yet-unproven-theories that went on before we got our head around enough quantum mechanics to attempt to build a semi-conductor? You're criticising the exact same scientific method that got our computers to boot up.

It now looks like quantum mechanics, previously the realm of small stuff, was fully involved in the big bang. But as Notwal says, as soon as science finds evidence that a theory is going down a wrong path it is abandoned. That's the essence of the scientific method..

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
15 Feb 2013 12:24PM
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Mark _australia said...
How do they know how far away it is? It could be a big one farther away or a smaller one closer....?

Mark could be on wrong path but if we keep shrinking our measure tapes.... he could be right ...One may ask the same question that Mark is yelling ... if there is any proof that universe is expanding (show me on YouTube or wiki or google it) .... beside the faith and wish .... nobody likes to see things shrinking....
Good on you Mark for asking hard questions that question everything ...

Ian K
WA, 4048 posts
15 Feb 2013 11:32AM
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Macroscien said...

Good on you Mark for asking hard questions that question everything ...



Yes good onya Mark. Just that Mark wound us up by saying "Not science - faith"

Maybe he meant to say " a theory at the highly speculative end of science, which I think will be dropped like a hot potato as the science goes on " ?

But we all know Mark knows how to push buttons.


Skid
QLD, 1499 posts
15 Feb 2013 2:04PM
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Macroscien said...
Hi Skid no offence please.

I just use your nick a example of an observer (or maybe that was Notwal that Panda... was referring to? ) , that want to see the beginning of our Universe, that 's it
to prove that is actually possible...



No offence taken
I was puzzled and didn't realise you were using me as an example observer.
Please continue....

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
15 Feb 2013 2:17PM
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Ian K said...
theory at the highly speculative end of science,

as you know the best theory is worthless unless you have simultaneously concept for the experiment to test it in real world....

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
15 Feb 2013 2:23PM
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Skid said...

What do we want?
Time travel!
When do we want it?
It's irrelevant!


Suppose that you invented time machine and want to publish the result now with that knowledge that could be build in few hundred years time....
Shouldn't be you worry that THEY will come back to kill you to keep it in secret ?
(example of the time paradox that can be solved IMO)

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
15 Feb 2013 2:54PM
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OK there is a V-beer (Virtual Beer) for somebody that provide us with solution for that paradox mentioned above !

chronology

1. You posted a plan to build time machine

2. Bad guy build machine and back to kill you to keep secret for himself

Question: How could you be saved ?

c'on that is joke and nobody will kill you for wrong answer ....



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Cosmology nerdery" started by NotWal