Hi, I started a year back researching the viability of off grid out of town, it appears if by importation and installation its done DIY it may be perfectly viable and cheaper than the grid for farms or simply large blocks outside town.
Wonder if you can give me any constructive feedback here about it. It is a bit long and chewy but i would say economically worth it.
note, the following article link page has a great 400w - 600w max. wind turbine for boats in its page,
This link is one that suits marine use.
www.aliexpress.com/item/1467336444.html
Here is the off grid article link: wild-canidae-conservation-forum.netne.net/austhouse15kw.html
and again on another site, the first site often goes out: sidewinder11sucommanderxer.podserver.info/austhouse15kw.html
In basis it is about off grid power systems and the fact they are near to or for some people better than the cost of having the grid and potentially over a ten year period if they "import DIY" batteries(accumulators) and the power system and install it themselves.
Here's a link from some green site claiming that by the year 2030 people may be able to move off grid,
reneweconomy.com.au/what-if-one-third-of-australians-chose-to-go-off-grid-85095/
However, if they truly understood its mainly a 4 tonne truck with lift tail gate and some annoying paperwork for government tax and tariff stopping them , then the capacity for anything with the money can swap that themselves and have twice the electricity.
I've tried to write this article in four sections,
1. basic comprehension of a solar wind hybrid power system.
2. what makes it work that long - the batterys / accumulators
3. How to acquire it from foreign suppliers and payment system used for foreign trade with domestic banking
4. Using ACBPS cargo sites and forms and customs requirements and methods of importation.
It is a hard bite to put everything there but it can be 2015 for price when 1/3 of Australians are off grid as i see it at the pricing scheme.
Just a few extra DIY skills in welding and electrics, its reasonably simple but not for everyone i suppose.
Its oriented at people past - outside town boundaries because of the main ingredient a "wind turbine" , they make a bit of noise.
The small wind turbines actually make quite a bit of noise, much of it in the higher frequency range which tends to be more invasive and annoying
Be careful if you are putting anything like this close to a house because you might soon regret it.
Select to expand quotepweedas said..
The small wind turbines actually make quite a bit of noise, much of it in the higher frequency range which tends to be more invasive and annoying
Be careful if you are putting anything like this close to a house because you might soon regret it.
Hi, Here's a quote from my article
..."that is only suitable for houses that council and neighbours do not mind the noise of the wind turbine and unlikely in city suburbs where that would not be tolerated"....
Most certainly a concern , and in Northern Queensland and around Australia people are getting annoyed with "wind farms" for health reasons, unfortunately they also put out what they say, enough power to be a grid power station along their high voltage wires.
And this from the original post above which i have now put in bold text
..."Its oriented at people past - outside town boundaries because of the main ingredient a "wind turbine" , they make a bit of noise"...
Yes, I did notice that you mentioned the noise.
I posted in case you thought it might be something you could just mention, and then ignore it.
Unfortunately, if there were three or four people in a house, you can be pretty sure at least one of them would be complaining about the noise after a few months. That's why I suggested not putting one near a house. Even your own house.
And I might add that the noise can be clearly heard at least a hundred metres away.
If you're the only one in it then that's fine, but it's not the sort of thing you would want to inflict on your wife and then expect everything to remain sweet on the home front.
There are some slower and more quiet vertical turbine types but I don't know if they generate much power, although I don't have any experience with other types.
It's just advice. Feel free to ignore it.
If you want to know about "off the grid" power systems, talk with a live aboard yachtsman.
Wind!!! Why, it's noisy, ugly and unpredictable as in there are a lot of calm days in most places. I know you are thinking its also cloudy too for solar, but iv lived off solar most of my life and gee 90% of the time it's fine if not more. There is always a fridge running and I watch tv when ever I want, and I still haven't gotten around to converting all my lights to led. Shaw batteries are a cost but the panels last forever. A petrol gen backup charger and for running big tools and the microwave is the trick, but not for hours on end unless you are building a boat;)
A mate of mine worked at Siemens for 5 years, engineering propellors, for Gas Transmission... They perfected the propellors...
Small Propellors - yes they seem to make a little bit of noise... Maybe a bit more engineering could reduce this...
You might all be interested in what this guy did: ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/turbine.html
He hand built a 7kw hydro electric plant! It's an impressive read.
Only really useful if you have a stream and enough vertical drop though...
Thanks for the reply nicephotog, I disagree on the wind being more constant as even on cloudy days the panels produce a bit. I'm only going on my experience with solar and it works so well! I'm lazy in my setup and iv only running 300 watts at most and I recharge a electric bike and other devices as well as fridge and all! Batteries last about three years and some times more, at a rough yearly cost of $200. And now 300 watts of panels cost about $300 ! It's a no brainier on how good they are, I mention the gen for household use like washing machine or microwave and tools its easy pulling the cord for 50c worth of fuel for a short high power load. And plus you can recharge if caught out! But I think back over the years on my boat and I recon iv used the genny for charging about five times a year if that. Iv three days of reserve in the bats during cloudy weather. And I really want to point out that I'm not sitting in the dark, I use what ever I want in power. Oh and btw iv been running a electric outboard on the tender with a 20 watt panel and even I cant believe it! Six months use and I never ran out! Once or twice to shore of a 400 meter trip one way, each day. There were some cloudy day that made me wonder if I will have to recharge off the boat main bank, but I didn't . Then I up sized the dingy bat and that gave a lot more reserve.
Select to expand quoteDezman said..
Oh and btw iv been running a electric outboard on the tender with a 20 watt panel and even I cant believe it! Six months use and I never ran out! Once or twice to shore of a 400 meter trip one way, each day. There were some cloudy day that made me wonder if I will have to recharge off the boat main bank, but I didn't . Then I up sized the dingy bat and that gave a lot more reserve.
How many (Hp)ower and what's the current draw(pardon the pun) or rating and voltage for the rig?
But with all that, what speed do you get and what weight in total?
I'm not sure what the purpose of all this is.
Are you looking at doing this because grid power is not available?
Or are you doing this just so you can give the grid the flick?
If it's the latter, then my advice is,.. don't bother. Stay on the grid.
There is no doubt that taking cost and convenience into account, grid power is still the best option.
The fact is, if you used the same amount of power from the grid as you would use from a solar plus wind system, the grid system would still be cheaper and more convenient.
The main problem with being on the grid is, since almost unlimited power is available 24/7 then the tendancy is to use more power.
So it can get expensive.
If you used the same power from the grid that you would use from a solar system, then it would be very cheap.
Setting up a home to run independent of the grid gives you a happy feeling for a year or two when you turn on the lights or the tv and know that it's all 'free' (disregarding the thousands that it took you to set it all up) but you soon get tired of starting up the generator to run irons, hair driers, toasters, washing machines, a proper computer, and whatever draws more than a few hundred watts.
Plus a gas fridge is nowhere near as effective as a modern fridge freezer.
Soooooo, if it will tickle your fancy to be independent, then do it, but I think if there is more than one in the household, don't be surprised if all the others don't embrace your experiment with unbridled enthusiasm..
I should add, this will all change on the day they discover a cheap and efficient power storage system. i.e a new type of energy dense battery.
So far, none of them cut the mustard, although lithium batteries are getting close. 
Sorry nicephotog I don't have the numbers, the motor is 55lb trust. The dingy is light and the trip does not take long maybe 10 mins.
Select to expand quotepweedas said..
I'm not sure what the purpose of all this is.
....................
If it's the latter, then my advice is,.. don't bother. Stay on the grid.
....................
The main problem with being on the grid is, since almost unlimited power is available 24/7 then the tendancy is to use more power.
So it can get expensive.
If you used the same power from the grid that you would use from a solar system, then it ........ very cheap.
.........................
I should add, this will all ........ on the day they ......... a cheap and efficient power storage system. i.e a new type of energy dense battery.
..............................
If you read the article you would understand it.
Actually, to DIY(Do It Yourself) import and install(what the article explains in every detail , a.k.a. what the purpose of all this is) gets you twice your electricity consumption for little more than or equal to using the grid.
e.g. (not that numbers should be mentioned here but now unavoidable to make the point they are aberrative) "A kit set as 10Kw generator system" , with 2 x 10Kw inverters(hot water-air cond.3kw-washing machine room on one, everything else including stove oven on the other) , 80 x 80ah deep cycle batteries work 10 years at 30 deg. Celsius, 5Kw of solar panels and 5Kw wind turbine and hybrid controller as a kit to Sydney Port by CIF/EXW as two separate trade deals, costs around 25,000 dollars AUD, at "USD 90-89 cents" from AUD, price.(USD is used by them so people have some idea of the price they see).
It is calculated and estimated with
NSW "C" class drivers license use of a 4 tonne GVM hire van with hydraulic tail gate lift,
all customs tariff and GST included as the price estimation
and finally materials and equipment you must use yourself.
Your sweat has not been included or calculated.
All customs rules forms and brokering(self customs brokered) , the whole process is there start to finnish.
It's all DIY. "INFORMATION AND SELF HELP"
It's packets cheaper than the grid and should last 12 - 15 years.
Just to explain the concept maths in it (it adds up true), REALLY ITS A LITTLE COMPLEX AND WHY YOU NEED TO READ ALL OF THE ARTICLE.
- Once a decade to buy,
- Twice the electricity *(see required generator size by scenarios) compared to the grid by near price,
- requires its generator sizing and by ratio of solar to wind because of weather and system up-time assurance(e.g. little accidents and to preserve battery cycling) but also because current draw is required from the devices as much to prevent battery cycling(DOD level and lead plate usage and chemical temperature) under electric motor load and air-conditioning but particularly electric hot water and stove oven(these last are gigantic loading and current draw).
Is there any risk of electrical fire, and void insurance or even prosecution since installation not by licenced electrician?
Select to expand quotemick14 said..
Is there any risk of electrical fire, and void insurance or even prosecution since installation not by licenced electrician?
Electricity = risk
fire = idiot
Void insurance is the more likely , however , they are not over complicated exactly, neither danger of mismatched parts if it were a kit(if your really clever or bother to properly learn about the devices you can match your own mixture but it is around 8 - 10 "ACBPS customs N10 import declarations" for each part to make your own kit mix to your own spec).
Maybe only able to insure with a company that would accept to examine what you had done or have an electrician examine what you had done and your archive of DIY tutorials to get assurance some parts if not all of it can be insured.
Probably more danger in the importation, that sort of DIY is a little nerdy but just as good for skilled certified tradesmen IQ level too and heaps of back up material on the net for DIY so no reason to go wrong.
Cannot say the most difficult part would be which circuits would be which to find after the mains board is ripped out to join to either inverter(if your sensible with a full size electrical house it requires two 10Kw inverters to sensibly hold the load although like any kit they supply only one set of each in it - note: never try to double your power by joining inverters do not inter-join circuits fed to the inverters on their in/outs always have separate circuit sets supplied).
Of prosecution, not quite, but it does go that you hold responsibility for burning others down but not yourself, licensed electricians are about being able to charge money as a business and award wages in some cases some wiring by handy man workers is accepted unlicensed. The scenario here really only supports well spaced dwellings that will not reach one and other and really its a switch over of power supply not a dwelling rewiring.
I would be really surprised if you could get 10 years out of a deep cycle battery.
I typically get less than three years out of a good quality battery, and I've tried a few.
I had one which was down to about quarter capacity in 12 months. 
When I tell the battery supply guy that the last battery didn't last long, he sells me a much more expensive one, which usually doesn't last any longer than the previous one.
I'm also not alone in this. I hear it often, even from the guy who sells the batteries.
This is important because the batteries are one of the main costs, and unfortunately, it is a recurring cost.
Most of the other problems asociated with the system, such as the DC to AC inverter, have now been solved, but the storage problem has not been.
80 batteries of 80 amp hour capacity is still the weak link, particularly when they will need replacing every 5 years maximum, and maybe more often.
Even at $150 each for cheap ones that makes $12,000 every five years.
A top notch battery at $250 each blows that out to $20,000. 
Many people over the last fifty years have had the same idea you are promoting here but they have never taken hold because of the cost relative to the cost of power from the grid.
Select to expand quotepweedas said..
I would be really surprised if you could get 10 years out of a deep cycle battery.
I typically get less than three years out of a good quality battery, and I've tried a few.
I had one which was down to about quarter capacity in 12 months.
.................................................................................
Many people over the last fifty years have had the same idea you are promoting here but they have never taken hold because of the cost relative to the cost of power from the grid.
UNFORTUNATELY pweedas THE INFORMATION YOU HAVE ABOUT BATTERIES IS IRRELEVANT , ITS A FOREIGN TRADE DEAL "DIY" NOT DOMESTIC MARKET OR YOU NEVER COULD, IF YOU DO NOT BUY DIRECTLY FROM THE MANUFACTURER YOU WOULD BE INSANE!!! (However there is a small problem called M.O.Q. "Minimum Order Quantity" which makes them cheaper usually 60 at least but more commonly 100. If you tried to get 10 of them it would cost no different to getting them here).
First, because a deep cycle battery has a rated number of discharge/recharge cycles able to a particular depth of discharge called DOD.
The meat on a lead plate in an accumulator is analogous to fuel in a car fuel tank. ..."Meat is murder"....
1. DOD is a deep cycle and battery terminology for Depth Of Discharge .
2. A battery (properly called an accumulator , a multi-cell rechargeable battery)
3. A deep cycle battery is an "accumulator" designed to carry heavier than normal current loads during charge and discharge hence the two float charge voltages often written on them.
ex. floating=13.7v deep=14.5v
4. The rated float section discharge of 30% of a normal deep cycle battery is different dependent quality and manufacturer.
But is normally for low quality 1200 cycles , medium low quality 1400 cycles, start of high quality 1600 cycles
5. The float charge section of a battery is the top 30% (an international electrical standard), if the battery is used below that 30%then recharge involves "stage charging". Stage charging switches on and off for periods of time, whereas the "float section applies a constant charge current and voltage".
A normal house uses between 20 - 30 Kwh a day with air-conditioner and electric cooking and electric hot water.
1600 cycles to 30% / 365 = 4.38 years approximately.
(1600 x 2) cycles to 15% / 365 = guess 8.7 years
1 kwh = 80ah at 12v (note: @12v 83 amps is a Kw @240v 4.1 amps is a Kw)
30 batteries at 80ah to 100% DOD to deliver the daily Kwh TOTALLY UNPRACTICAL TO 100% DOD.
30 x 10 = using only the top 10% of the float section = 300 x 80ah batteries.
Half of this is acquired direct through from the charge equipment in use case process 300 / 2 = 150 80ah batterys.
Still at 10% DOD use system with 150 batteries, 150-50 = 100 batteries at around 15% DOD.
Most usage during daylight and or with high quality discharge batteries and good high temperature life-cycle chemistry at 30 degrees can shift down to 80 batteries at 80ah.
NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF BATTERY LIFE-CYCLE TIME, YOUR NOT USING A PRIMARY CELL WALKMAN OR IPOD BATTERY YOUR USING AN INDUSTRIAL BATTERY CALLED AN ACCUMULATOR AND ONE THAT IS A DEEP CYCLE.
SECOND
That's not how you buy batteries DIY, you order a large quantity e.g. 80 x 80ah batteries from the overseas supplier and use a hired truck with tail gate hydraulic lift at the docks after paying tariff.
80 batteries high quality - from a recent foreign trade deal offer was around $95 AUD a battery and around $500 sea freight CIF to Sydney port.
That comes to $7650 AUD as a base guide price to Sydney port (that's around $1000 more for GST + Tariff and ACBPS fees = $8650).
If you ever attempted to buy them any other way or the only available for this purpose of a solar wind hybrid power system you will only waste money.
ALL OF THIS INFORMATION IS IN THE ARTICLE - READ IT - IT SO MUCH MORE SENSIBLE - SAVE IT TO YOUR DRIVE WHEN YOU OPEN THE PAGE SO YOU CAN CHEW ON IT WHEN REQUIRED(or recovered from last time it such a long article but it is in sections).
Here is a lik of how to import DIY
IMPORT ACQUIRING PROCESS : sidewinder11sucommanderxer.podserver.info/Import-Process=web.pdf
Here is a link of a high quality battery data sheet - look at the graph information
MOTOMA 100ah deep cycle: sidewinder11sucommanderxer.podserver.info/DSE-SLA-MS12V100D-V11A.pdf
Select to expand quoteDezman said..
Sorry nicephotog I don't have the numbers, the motor is 55lb trust. The dingy is light and the trip does not take long maybe 10 mins.
(55lb) 24 Kg/m second = 235.35959999952183 watts = 20 amps @12v
0.25 Kwh
I skimmed over your article looking for whatever you are selling but I couldn't find it? especially since you only joined this forum recently?
What I did see was a link to an article and a claim that by 2030 many/most (I think it suggested as many as 86%) could move off-grid and become self-sufficient in power generation. But that article is based on non- intrusive solar panels and cost effective battery storage, primarily in urban areas. It freely admits there is much speculation and reliance on battery technology improving and costs reducing significantly for this to work.
Looking at your article you are saying that it is cost effective to do it now with a combination of wind and solar, then you go on to say your set up isn't recommended for urban areas due to noisy wind turbines. So you are using a biased and speculative article promoting one technology in an urban area to support your article using different technology in a rural environment???
You also say 1/3 of Aussies could go off-grid on your research and system proposals using the DIY approach? I would speculate that much less than 1% of the population live on plots of land suitable for a noisy wind turbine, even less than that are in a location where the wind is consistent enough for a wind turbine to make a reliable contribution, less again that are brave enough to do DIY electrical work, less again that will tolerate the risk of fire or voiding insurance, less again that are willing to stump up the cash for the capital outlay. And you are plugging your article on a forum that is not your target audience?
It looks like you didn't get much of a responce on the farmers forum, farmstyle forum, homeone forum, wild dog conservation forum (I'm sure there are many more forums you are plugging your article on) and with all the other online articles feedback/comment sections you have linked your article to still makes me think you are trying to sell something?
And I thought posting your article on the wild dog conservation forum was a bit random on your part, then I found that's it's your website, so not really I guess.
Well spotted chris6791, just another sales pitch. I guessed his 'nicephotog' statement on wind being more realiable than solar was crap, what cheek some people have.
I've never criticised going off-grid, I'm just pointing out flaws in your argument. I point out the flaw in your of your suggestion nearly everyone can go off-grid then you come back and imply it's only for farmers.
And you are now suggesting it's only cost effective and profitable for isolated farmers instead of having to spend minimum $30k getting connected to the grid.
I've also no idea what website you are talking about but 10,000 lines of pure process and IEEE double precision calculations does sound impressive.
I know infrastructure is expensive, I have to pay $28,000 to move one power pole 2.2 metres
The CSIRO proved that most stand alone households could be taken "off the grid" about 35 to 40 years ago with the technology available then.
Why are most of us still "on the grid"???
So that the populace subsidises the power consumption of the multi nationals.
If you didn't know you were being ripped off till now, you are now informed of it.
Select to expand quoteChris6791 said..
I've never criticised going off-grid, I'm just pointing out flaws in your argument. I point out the flaw in your of your suggestion nearly everyone can go off-grid then you come back and imply it's only for farmers.
And you are now suggesting it's only cost effective and profitable for isolated farmers instead of having to spend minimum $30k getting connected to the grid.
I've also no idea what website you are talking about but 10,000 lines of pure process and IEEE double precision calculations does sound impressive.
I know infrastructure is expensive, I have to pay $28,000 to move one power pole 2.2 meters
..."I've also no idea what website you are talking about but 10,000 lines of pure process"...
About IEEE equipment so to speak, it's more of a point of credibility(not impressing , just proof) relating the long complex information the article is.
It's simply i do not find that the information is too complex for anyone looking for a cost effective alternative to the grid.
..."point out the flaw in your of your suggestion nearly everyone can go off-grid"...
It doesn't say that, it says anyone outside a town boundary far enough away from neighbors (in the article "with enough space" also) can cost effectively go off grid.
..."And you are now suggesting it's only cost effective and profitable for isolated farmers instead of having to spend minimum $30k"...
No, i'm suggesting the suppression of information by your rough logic of criticism and unreasonable accusation of being something i am not (such as a salesman) is obscuring a perfectly valid alternative for such persons(whom don't require to be farmers , it could be new sub divided land a few Km out of town first home buyers) needing electricity whom would never know that with that 30K they can have 10 years and more of twice the electricity and cash left over rather than pay 30k just to start being billed for 10 years at an unknown and unreliable tariff rate that often is higher cost always than suburbia.
..."I know infrastructure is expensive, I have to pay $28,000 to move one power pole 2.2 meters"...
I prefer to use an ancient but also present medical diagnosis for that one (a medical diagnosis is more appropriate if you don't prefer more than ten years of twice the electricity service).
Res Ipsa Des.
(Actually, before this ever gets out of hand, i do bow-fishing, anyone know of a "stand up paddle board" takes 150Kg minimum(e.g. like weight lifters) suitable for open ocean side of coastline (a bit wider type and more stable), ? only need to go out up to 150 meters)
I agree with Chris - seen it all before
(1) post a question which implies 'i am thinking about doing this what do you all think?'
(2) argue with responses
(3) then we all notice the post count and think maybe it is spamming crap yet again
Stuff like "a farmer can have a big house with an air-conditioner and all electric system and run many power tools and beat the grid price over ten years as though he were living in a suburban street.
That's where it does beat the grid full stop for price!"
well why did you have to ask us all for opinions then? Sounds like you are decided (or have something you realllly need to make us all aware of - selling?)
I am involved a bit in green energy and off the grid power too.
Usually off the grid customer is "no brainer"
New house or farm in remote location and the quotation for laying down electric cable to nearest grid is approx 70k.
Then you still need to pay electric bills when done.
For half of that money they could go off the grid in first place and never worry about electricity bills.
But economic of selling energy to the grid using wind or solar is still illusion only.
The most cost effective could be hydro power which is surprisingly extremely cheap for generator ( approx few thousand dollars for 5 kw turbine / generator) itself and could supply to the grid 24/24 but access to flowing water is extremely rare in Australia.
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
...............
But economic of selling energy to the grid using wind or solar is still illusion only.
The most cost effective could be hydro power which is surprisingly extremely cheap for generator ( approx few thousand dollars for 5 kw turbine / generator) itself and could supply to the grid 24/24 but access to flowing water is extremely rare in Australia.
This is the point, it is not still illusion only.
But for the off grid the catch is DIY to make a price, but no-one is aware of it.
