Off grid solar wind Hybrid systems

The small wind turbines actually make quite a bit of noise, much of it in the higher frequency range which tends to be more invasive and annoying

Be careful if you are putting anything like this close to a house because you might soon regret it.

Yes, I did notice that you mentioned the noise.
I posted in case you thought it might be something you could just mention, and then ignore it.
Unfortunately, if there were three or four people in a house, you can be pretty sure at least one of them would be complaining about the noise after a few months. That's why I suggested not putting one near a house. Even your own house.
And I might add that the noise can be clearly heard at least a hundred metres away.

If you're the only one in it then that's fine, but it's not the sort of thing you would want to inflict on your wife and then expect everything to remain sweet on the home front.
There are some slower and more quiet vertical turbine types but I don't know if they generate much power, although I don't have any experience with other types.
It's just advice. Feel free to ignore it.

Wind!!! Why, it's noisy, ugly and unpredictable as in there are a lot of calm days in most places. I know you are thinking its also cloudy too for solar, but iv lived off solar most of my life and gee 90% of the time it's fine if not more. There is always a fridge running and I watch tv when ever I want, and I still haven't gotten around to converting all my lights to led. Shaw batteries are a cost but the panels last forever. A petrol gen backup charger and for running big tools and the microwave is the trick, but not for hours on end unless you are building a boat;)

Locating it 100 meters away is only as bad as something like #AWG 4 wire.

You appear to be one of these people (abc.net.au article) called "solar citizens":
www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-02/252c000-signature-solar-petition-urges-feds-27don27t-tax-sun/5129522

Wind isn't that unpredictable (noisy yes, ugly no), however, there are calm days but it appears wind is the better(meteorology, percentile layers and PBL) to have for most in "off grid" its 24/7 unlike solar giving just that extra insurance against DOD battery discharge level damage possibility.
True you can set up solar to manage it with more batteries but solar can be a risk against activity completion and lifestyle comfort during extended weather periods and where cost counts, the batteries must not be discharged too far to operate economically over a set period.

I wouldn't spend a cent on a petrol generator, particularly with a 7Kva welder except for remote work. Devoids the point of solar as much in my mind.


note for people who use turbines or want to:
If you don't know small controller equipment there is a low current charging function in some of the more expensive and featured controller versions for small wind turbines(with catches to acquiring it). Seems the better of the cheaper ones use MPPT to adjust the voltage for "float voltage" but the following is one of a few that are principally all the same at their level.
With: "low charge voltage charging function"
www.aliexpress.com/item/DHL-Free-Shipping-600W-48V-RS-Communication-Low-Voltage-Charge-Function-CE-Solar-Wind-Hybrid-Controller/528144875.html
Here (for interest and parity) is an MPPT version the lowest quality you would want anyhow alike the 600w max. turbine mentioned before:
www.aliexpress.com/item/Fedex-freeshipping-800W-Wind-Solar-Hybrid-Controller-600W-Wind-300W-Solar-Street-Lamp-Mppt-Controller-12V/629131880.html

Thanks for the reply nicephotog, I disagree on the wind being more constant as even on cloudy days the panels produce a bit. I'm only going on my experience with solar and it works so well! I'm lazy in my setup and iv only running 300 watts at most and I recharge a electric bike and other devices as well as fridge and all! Batteries last about three years and some times more, at a rough yearly cost of $200. And now 300 watts of panels cost about $300 ! It's a no brainier on how good they are, I mention the gen for household use like washing machine or microwave and tools its easy pulling the cord for 50c worth of fuel for a short high power load. And plus you can recharge if caught out! But I think back over the years on my boat and I recon iv used the genny for charging about five times a year if that. Iv three days of reserve in the bats during cloudy weather. And I really want to point out that I'm not sitting in the dark, I use what ever I want in power. Oh and btw iv been running a electric outboard on the tender with a 20 watt panel and even I cant believe it! Six months use and I never ran out! Once or twice to shore of a 400 meter trip one way, each day. There were some cloudy day that made me wonder if I will have to recharge off the boat main bank, but I didn't . Then I up sized the dingy bat and that gave a lot more reserve.

I'm not sure what the purpose of all this is.
Are you looking at doing this because grid power is not available?
Or are you doing this just so you can give the grid the flick?

If it's the latter, then my advice is,.. don't bother. Stay on the grid.
There is no doubt that taking cost and convenience into account, grid power is still the best option.
The fact is, if you used the same amount of power from the grid as you would use from a solar plus wind system, the grid system would still be cheaper and more convenient.

The main problem with being on the grid is, since almost unlimited power is available 24/7 then the tendancy is to use more power.
So it can get expensive.
If you used the same power from the grid that you would use from a solar system, then it would be very cheap.

Setting up a home to run independent of the grid gives you a happy feeling for a year or two when you turn on the lights or the tv and know that it's all 'free' (disregarding the thousands that it took you to set it all up) but you soon get tired of starting up the generator to run irons, hair driers, toasters, washing machines, a proper computer, and whatever draws more than a few hundred watts.
Plus a gas fridge is nowhere near as effective as a modern fridge freezer.

Soooooo, if it will tickle your fancy to be independent, then do it, but I think if there is more than one in the household, don't be surprised if all the others don't embrace your experiment with unbridled enthusiasm..

I should add, this will all change on the day they discover a cheap and efficient power storage system. i.e a new type of energy dense battery.
So far, none of them cut the mustard, although lithium batteries are getting close.

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pweedas said..

I'm not sure what the purpose of all this is.
....................
If it's the latter, then my advice is,.. don't bother. Stay on the grid.
....................
The main problem with being on the grid is, since almost unlimited power is available 24/7 then the tendancy is to use more power.
So it can get expensive.
If you used the same power from the grid that you would use from a solar system, then it ........ very cheap.
.........................
I should add, this will all ........ on the day they ......... a cheap and efficient power storage system. i.e a new type of energy dense battery.
..............................

If you read the article you would understand it.

Actually, to DIY(Do It Yourself) import and install(what the article explains in every detail , a.k.a. what the purpose of all this is) gets you twice your electricity consumption for little more than or equal to using the grid.
e.g. (not that numbers should be mentioned here but now unavoidable to make the point they are aberrative) "A kit set as 10Kw generator system" , with 2 x 10Kw inverters(hot water-air cond.3kw-washing machine room on one, everything else including stove oven on the other) , 80 x 80ah deep cycle batteries work 10 years at 30 deg. Celsius, 5Kw of solar panels and 5Kw wind turbine and hybrid controller as a kit to Sydney Port by CIF/EXW as two separate trade deals, costs around 25,000 dollars AUD, at "USD 90-89 cents" from AUD, price.(USD is used by them so people have some idea of the price they see).
It is calculated and estimated with
NSW "C" class drivers license use of a 4 tonne GVM hire van with hydraulic tail gate lift,
all customs tariff and GST included as the price estimation
and finally materials and equipment you must use yourself.
Your sweat has not been included or calculated.

All customs rules forms and brokering(self customs brokered) , the whole process is there start to finnish.

It's all DIY. "INFORMATION AND SELF HELP"

It's packets cheaper than the grid and should last 12 - 15 years.

Just to explain the concept maths in it (it adds up true), REALLY ITS A LITTLE COMPLEX AND WHY YOU NEED TO READ ALL OF THE ARTICLE.
- Once a decade to buy,
- Twice the electricity *(see required generator size by scenarios) compared to the grid by near price,
- requires its generator sizing and by ratio of solar to wind because of weather and system up-time assurance(e.g. little accidents and to preserve battery cycling) but also because current draw is required from the devices as much to prevent battery cycling(DOD level and lead plate usage and chemical temperature) under electric motor load and air-conditioning but particularly electric hot water and stove oven(these last are gigantic loading and current draw).

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mick14 said..

Is there any risk of electrical fire, and void insurance or even prosecution since installation not by licenced electrician?

Electricity = risk
fire = idiot

Void insurance is the more likely , however , they are not over complicated exactly, neither danger of mismatched parts if it were a kit(if your really clever or bother to properly learn about the devices you can match your own mixture but it is around 8 - 10 "ACBPS customs N10 import declarations" for each part to make your own kit mix to your own spec).
Maybe only able to insure with a company that would accept to examine what you had done or have an electrician examine what you had done and your archive of DIY tutorials to get assurance some parts if not all of it can be insured.
Probably more danger in the importation, that sort of DIY is a little nerdy but just as good for skilled certified tradesmen IQ level too and heaps of back up material on the net for DIY so no reason to go wrong.

Cannot say the most difficult part would be which circuits would be which to find after the mains board is ripped out to join to either inverter(if your sensible with a full size electrical house it requires two 10Kw inverters to sensibly hold the load although like any kit they supply only one set of each in it - note: never try to double your power by joining inverters do not inter-join circuits fed to the inverters on their in/outs always have separate circuit sets supplied).

Of prosecution, not quite, but it does go that you hold responsibility for burning others down but not yourself, licensed electricians are about being able to charge money as a business and award wages in some cases some wiring by handy man workers is accepted unlicensed. The scenario here really only supports well spaced dwellings that will not reach one and other and really its a switch over of power supply not a dwelling rewiring.

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pweedas said..
I would be really surprised if you could get 10 years out of a deep cycle battery.
I typically get less than three years out of a good quality battery, and I've tried a few.
I had one which was down to about quarter capacity in 12 months.
.................................................................................
Many people over the last fifty years have had the same idea you are promoting here but they have never taken hold because of the cost relative to the cost of power from the grid.

UNFORTUNATELY pweedas THE INFORMATION YOU HAVE ABOUT BATTERIES IS IRRELEVANT , ITS A FOREIGN TRADE DEAL "DIY" NOT DOMESTIC MARKET OR YOU NEVER COULD, IF YOU DO NOT BUY DIRECTLY FROM THE MANUFACTURER YOU WOULD BE INSANE!!! (However there is a small problem called M.O.Q. "Minimum Order Quantity" which makes them cheaper usually 60 at least but more commonly 100. If you tried to get 10 of them it would cost no different to getting them here).

First, because a deep cycle battery has a rated number of discharge/recharge cycles able to a particular depth of discharge called DOD.
The meat on a lead plate in an accumulator is analogous to fuel in a car fuel tank. ..."Meat is murder"....

1. DOD is a deep cycle and battery terminology for Depth Of Discharge .
2. A battery (properly called an accumulator , a multi-cell rechargeable battery)
3. A deep cycle battery is an "accumulator" designed to carry heavier than normal current loads during charge and discharge hence the two float charge voltages often written on them.
ex. floating=13.7v deep=14.5v
4. The rated float section discharge of 30% of a normal deep cycle battery is different dependent quality and manufacturer.
But is normally for low quality 1200 cycles , medium low quality 1400 cycles, start of high quality 1600 cycles
5. The float charge section of a battery is the top 30% (an international electrical standard), if the battery is used below that 30%then recharge involves "stage charging". Stage charging switches on and off for periods of time, whereas the "float section applies a constant charge current and voltage".

A normal house uses between 20 - 30 Kwh a day with air-conditioner and electric cooking and electric hot water.
1600 cycles to 30% / 365 = 4.38 years approximately.
(1600 x 2) cycles to 15% / 365 = guess 8.7 years
1 kwh = 80ah at 12v (note: @12v 83 amps is a Kw @240v 4.1 amps is a Kw)
30 batteries at 80ah to 100% DOD to deliver the daily Kwh TOTALLY UNPRACTICAL TO 100% DOD.
30 x 10 = using only the top 10% of the float section = 300 x 80ah batteries.
Half of this is acquired direct through from the charge equipment in use case process 300 / 2 = 150 80ah batterys.
Still at 10% DOD use system with 150 batteries, 150-50 = 100 batteries at around 15% DOD.
Most usage during daylight and or with high quality discharge batteries and good high temperature life-cycle chemistry at 30 degrees can shift down to 80 batteries at 80ah.

NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF BATTERY LIFE-CYCLE TIME, YOUR NOT USING A PRIMARY CELL WALKMAN OR IPOD BATTERY YOUR USING AN INDUSTRIAL BATTERY CALLED AN ACCUMULATOR AND ONE THAT IS A DEEP CYCLE.


SECOND
That's not how you buy batteries DIY, you order a large quantity e.g. 80 x 80ah batteries from the overseas supplier and use a hired truck with tail gate hydraulic lift at the docks after paying tariff.
80 batteries high quality - from a recent foreign trade deal offer was around $95 AUD a battery and around $500 sea freight CIF to Sydney port.
That comes to $7650 AUD as a base guide price to Sydney port (that's around $1000 more for GST + Tariff and ACBPS fees = $8650).
If you ever attempted to buy them any other way or the only available for this purpose of a solar wind hybrid power system you will only waste money.


ALL OF THIS INFORMATION IS IN THE ARTICLE - READ IT - IT SO MUCH MORE SENSIBLE - SAVE IT TO YOUR DRIVE WHEN YOU OPEN THE PAGE SO YOU CAN CHEW ON IT WHEN REQUIRED(or recovered from last time it such a long article but it is in sections).

Here is a lik of how to import DIY
IMPORT ACQUIRING PROCESS : sidewinder11sucommanderxer.podserver.info/Import-Process=web.pdf
Here is a link of a high quality battery data sheet - look at the graph information
MOTOMA 100ah deep cycle: sidewinder11sucommanderxer.podserver.info/DSE-SLA-MS12V100D-V11A.pdf

I skimmed over your article looking for whatever you are selling but I couldn't find it? especially since you only joined this forum recently?

What I did see was a link to an article and a claim that by 2030 many/most (I think it suggested as many as 86%) could move off-grid and become self-sufficient in power generation. But that article is based on non- intrusive solar panels and cost effective battery storage, primarily in urban areas. It freely admits there is much speculation and reliance on battery technology improving and costs reducing significantly for this to work.

Looking at your article you are saying that it is cost effective to do it now with a combination of wind and solar, then you go on to say your set up isn't recommended for urban areas due to noisy wind turbines. So you are using a biased and speculative article promoting one technology in an urban area to support your article using different technology in a rural environment???

You also say 1/3 of Aussies could go off-grid on your research and system proposals using the DIY approach? I would speculate that much less than 1% of the population live on plots of land suitable for a noisy wind turbine, even less than that are in a location where the wind is consistent enough for a wind turbine to make a reliable contribution, less again that are brave enough to do DIY electrical work, less again that will tolerate the risk of fire or voiding insurance, less again that are willing to stump up the cash for the capital outlay. And you are plugging your article on a forum that is not your target audience?

It looks like you didn't get much of a responce on the farmers forum, farmstyle forum, homeone forum, wild dog conservation forum (I'm sure there are many more forums you are plugging your article on) and with all the other online articles feedback/comment sections you have linked your article to still makes me think you are trying to sell something?

And I thought posting your article on the wild dog conservation forum was a bit random on your part, then I found that's it's your website, so not really I guess.

Do you know how much farmers need to pay to connect to the grid! Plenty of the information on that site is for both farmers and the worlds peoples children to understand nature and it's requirements of an eco system.

Look here at what it can cost them:
..."Must exceed a distance of 1 kilometre from the nearest main-grid line or provide evidence from the local network service provider that the total cost to connect to the main-grid is more than $30,000. Applicants just short of the $30,000 main-grid estimated connection cost threshold may still be eligible. To be considered, applicants must attach a one page letter of explanation with the Pre-purchase application and guarantee"....
page the quote came from: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1453631

How rude to the farmers to criticize something can help them have and survive and many other people alike them and you attempt to push that information to somewhere it leaves them ignorant and in debt for paying more for their lives.

Not one red cent do i make from any of it.

It's free information, difficult to comprehend information, specialist information that is required to make a sensible decision.

And finally to that as a statement of actual fact, a farmer can have a big house with an air-conditioner and all electric system and run many power tools and beat the grid price over ten years as though he were living in a suburban street. That's where it does beat the grid full stop for price!

I dare you to audit me! The other site is science level computer programming and its free-ware!
I dare you to decompile either of my intellectually licensed programs, neither are below 10,000 lines of pure process and one requires IEEE double precision calculations.

The CSIRO proved that most stand alone households could be taken "off the grid" about 35 to 40 years ago with the technology available then.

Why are most of us still "on the grid"???

So that the populace subsidises the power consumption of the multi nationals.

If you didn't know you were being ripped off till now, you are now informed of it.

Some of mentioning it by the article. The best i found of "off grid" advertised and installed by Australian companies was 6.5Kw hybrid 5-wind 1.5-solar and it cost them 35K, and its ultimate component source was where these ones in the article i wrote come from.

They don't live off grid i presume because no-one/no Australian companies import enough off grid components making a cheap price and as much importation companies don't know which components are best to source for bulk importation.
So nothing is advertised to them in the terms of being an alternative offer , only a special requirement offer.

Another feature is the risk of what you buy being suitable.
Like i said, the article i wrote deals with all three problems.
acquirement (suppliers , communication,T/T,trade deal types e.g. CIF , banking,foreign transactions, transport problems).
requirements (technical features, types of components, other materials, parts of the system and operation)
"How it is used and cared for" (the tactic involved at implementing and scaling the size of system and component ratings).

This last is for most about the large economic outlay on batteries that "must last 10 years".
There is reliable information about batteries to make a choice and understand and have effective service life and proper service efficiency.
One such feature is understnding "battery life-cycle in years to temperaure" not simply DOD service quantity of lead plate.
It is not above 25 degrees Celsius all year round , and it can be heavilly assisted by ventilated double walling of the battery bank housing to prevent infra-red , direct sunlight and convection and conduction of heat reasonably simply allowing use of the medium lower quality battery to something like 9-10 years costing as much as 1k-1.5k less in base price than the high quality acumulators.

More than anything now, it is no proper information and the intricateness on acquiring and using "off grid" and annoying electronic paperwork with customs cargo support site.

Here's the document as PDF downloadable (rough doc change edit) online from a more reliable site:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/192444876/austhouse15kw-Australian-off-grid-house-Solar-wind-Hybrid

I am involved a bit in green energy and off the grid power too.
Usually off the grid customer is "no brainer"
New house or farm in remote location and the quotation for laying down electric cable to nearest grid is approx 70k.
Then you still need to pay electric bills when done.
For half of that money they could go off the grid in first place and never worry about electricity bills.

But economic of selling energy to the grid using wind or solar is still illusion only.

The most cost effective could be hydro power which is surprisingly extremely cheap for generator ( approx few thousand dollars for 5 kw turbine / generator) itself and could supply to the grid 24/24 but access to flowing water is extremely rare in Australia.