perfect example of a true "hero"
(and one that my pretend power of voting would have no ability to stop)
I've got total respect for the diggers in Afghanistan, but being part of a democracy implies that we can express a view about the legitimacy of our mission there without denigrating the memory of the fallen.
If we lose that right then what are we really fighting for?
For me it comes down to one simple fact....there is no military solution to the crisis there. Ultimately we and other Western nations will pull out, the corrupt Karzai regime will collapse and the country will revert to the basket case it's always been, fought over by opium warlords and deluded Taliban extremists.
It aint right, it just is.
And the whole 'we need to be there to protect our national security' argument is just plain cuckoo. On the whole terrorism in the West is not perpetrated by the Taliban, but by marginalised islamic youth (London bombings, Bali, Madrid).
Instead of spending billions in Afghanistan put the resources into education and training prorgrams for disadvantaged minorities in our own backyard. Poverty and disadvantage is what marginalises and radicalises the youth, not some absurd propaganda broadcast on YouTube.
I've avoided this thread until now because to be honest there is far too much emotion and not enough reality on both sides of the argument i feel.
H o w e v e r... if only the troops, and by that i mean the govts/military giving the orders, would do something tangible about the fkd up amount of heroin eminating from Afghanistan. That fact that the trade has not slowed even a tiny bit in the years the west's military has been there speaks volumes about the priorities of the western governments.
In the 80's we sat back and ridiculed the Ruskies as they (finally) scampered out of there with their tails between the legs, after decades of conflict spurned from the over confidence that numbers and technology would triumph.. Do we need another decade for the reality to sink in?
I was dumb enough in my teens to believe that, having learnt from the lies and irrational fear that lead to Australians dieing in Vietnam, (as some of my Dad's friends did) that we wouldn't fall for that boolsh!t again in my lifetime. Sadly i was very wrong..
No-one even mentions Iraq anymore do they? Unlike Vietnam, where the public resistance grew - in this age we grow tired of the issue after a a few months of press and don't want to hear about it anymore. It would be too distracting from dancing with the idol masterchefs.
I believe there actually is justification for being in Afghanistan - whereas there was and is none for going into or staying in Iraq beyond US policy, electioneering and ignorant patriotic stupidity. Just what the hell we were doing following the yank fools into kick Saddam's butt and rid the world of WMD? WMD - anybody care to remeber that? Well, the reasons are frankly far too embarrassing to us as a nation to answer.
I really think time will show that the brave/righteous/selfish or ignorant beliefs (and I'm sure all of those basses are covered amongst the many differant individuals that are there) that lead the west into Afghanistan were false and ultimately futile - despite some justification for the attempt.
So ask yourself now.. why don't we charge into Myanmar? Zimbabwe? etc etc etc.
tonight,i met up with a 30 y.old girl,with 2 kids age 1 + 3.
last week i let her borrow my fav book, 'corporatism the secret government of the new world order'.
i told her to read from page 165 to 184,the section about vaccines.
when i asked her tonight did you read it,her reply ''yes i read the whole section, it's all balony'' .
i said it's on their own website that these vaccines contain mercury,the pharma reps have admitted on television that some of them contain mercury,not to mention numerous newspaper articles reporting this.
the response was much the same,''my brother works for a pharmaceutical company and he tells me they contain no mercury''.
she then said something like ''stop wasting your time with wild conspiracy theories and go get yourself laid!
so let me get this right,it's documented on their own pharma websites that many of their vaccines contain mercury,admitted on television and reported in many newspaper articles.
but,it's still a conspiracy theory!
i give up, it's just too hard.
credit where credit is due, the Masters of Deception[the corporate establishment] have thru their programming on radio,t.v, newspapers etc got the vast majority hoodwinked.
a dissenting voice,out of all the thousands of hours of t.v programming just ain't going to change her beLIEf.
Afghanistan ,Iraq,fluoride,chemtrails,vaccines etc, the corporate establishment have the vast majority believing that what is reported on the t.v is factual.
nothing could be futher from the truth.
problem is he is not the only one, there are heaps of them!! 
If we gave the Taliban the money it cost the world to bomb them on condition of social reform.
Eg:
$739,800,000,000 for new hospitals, schools and government buildings in exchange you allow women to work and go to school... I bet you could even ask them for a red light district and they would happily oblige.
There would be no reason to send in the "heroes".
If some of you read a little history, there would be no real reason to argue my point.
@maxm: hate the West? what gave you the idea that being objective was hating!? Was it the quote from your idol George Dubya: "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists"
@teatrea: wtf, who's blaming the Jews? It's a fact they and corporate interests control US foreign policy... it doesn't say so in the Sports section, so look else where.
OMG here let me help you use google:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2894821400057137878#
or the UK
any formal attack on ignorance is bound to fail because the masses are already to defend their most precious possession their ignorance...... Hendrik Van Loon.
well sort of 
Depite the blue pills this thread is heading..
How about less sh!t slinging and more discussion on the issue (was interesting all round for a while).
I don't think analyzing the Koran is that relevant either... unless it's likely the troops will return converted and aim to make it law here.
Yeh - Just leave the tin foil stuff to the tin foil threads I reckon.
Still instead of buying into it and arcing up (thereby extending the tin foil extravaganza) just gloss over and stay on the topic I reckon.
Easier said than done tho.
bin laden cia operative name is tim osmond
bin laden families construction company was/is contracted to build every u.s military base is the middle east. (for like the last thirty years)
this was known by those who cared to look and pay attention to the affairs of afgahnistan before 2001
there is no us versus them in terms of religion, ethnics, culture or economy.
there is only us versus them in terms of we who live in the schit and those who stir the schit.
WMD claims were lies says former envoy
By Nigel Morris, Deputy Political Editor
Britain was taken to war in Iraq on the basis of "lies", scaremongering and deliberate exaggeration, a former UK diplomat told the Iraq inquiry.
Carne Ross claimed that Britain and the United States privately did not believe that Iraq's weapons programmes posed a "substantial threat" before launching the 2003 invasion.
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Mr Ross, the former first secretary at the UK's mission to the United Nations, told the Chilcot inquiry there was no "significant intelligence" to support claims that Saddam Hussein had amassed an arsenal of deadly weapons.
He argued that Saddam could have been contained through sanctions - and condemned the failure by the US or UK to close the Iraqi dictator's bank accounts in Jordan.
Mr Ross, who resigned before the war, pointed to a document circulated to Labour MPs in 2002 as evidence of a "process of deliberate public exaggeration", including the claim that Saddam could develop nuclear weapons within five years.
He added: "This paper also contains such scare-mongering claims as 'less than a teaspoon of anthrax can kill over a million people' without explaining the extremely difficult process for anthrax to be weaponised and delivered in an effective method."
The former diplomat said the September 2002 dossier that made the case for war - including the notorious claim that Iraq could launch a missile strike within 45 minutes "misrepresented" the raw intelligence.
He said a "very uncertain and patchy picture" was converted into "positive claims of knowledge of threat".
Mr Ross concluded: "This process of exaggeration was gradual, and proceeded by accretion and editing from document to document, in a way that allowed those participating to convince themselves that they were not engaged in blatant dishonesty.
"But this process led to highly misleading statements about the UK assessment of the Iraqi threat that were, in their totality, lies."
Mr Ross challenged the inquiry to publish all Government documents concerning the war. He alleged that the evidence given by some officials was contradicted by papers he had seen and added he had seen "very little" in classified documents that could not be made public.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/wmd-claims-were-lies-says-former-envoy-2024868.html
talk about suspicious,
David Kelly post mortem to be kept secret for 70 years as doctors accuse Lord Hutton of concealing vital informationBy Miles Goslett
Last updated at 12:49 PM on 25th January 2010
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Vital evidence which could solve the mystery of the death of Government weapons inspector Dr David Kelly will be kept under wraps for up to 70 years.
In a draconian – and highly unusual – order, Lord Hutton, the peer who chaired the controversial inquiry into the Dr Kelly scandal, has secretly barred the release of all medical records, including the results of the post mortem, and unpublished evidence.
The move, which will stoke fresh speculation about the true circumstances of Dr Kelly’s death, comes just days before Tony Blair appears before the Chilcot Inquiry into the Iraq War.
It is also bound to revive claims of an establishment cover-up and fresh questions about the verdict that Dr Kelly killed himself.
Whistle-blower: Dr Kelly died after casting doubt on Government claims about Saddam's weapons
Tonight, Dr Michael Powers QC, a doctor campaigning to overturn the Hutton findings, said: ‘What is it about David Kelly’s death which is so secret as to justify these reports being kept out of the public domain for 70 years?’
Campaigning Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker, who has also questioned the verdict that Dr Kelly committed suicide, said: ‘It is astonishing this is the first we’ve known about this decision by Lord Hutton and even more astonishing he should have seen fit to hide this material away.’
The body of former United Nations weapons inspector Dr Kelly was found in July 2003 in woods close to his Oxfordshire home, shortly after he was exposed as the source of a BBC news report questioning the Government’s claims that
Saddam Hussein had an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, which could be deployed within 45 minutes.
Lord Hutton’s 2004 report, commissioned by Mr Blair, concluded that Dr Kelly killed himself by cutting his wrist with a blunt gardening knife.
Tragic: Forensic experts at work in the Oxfordshire woods where Dr Kelly's body was found in 2003
It was dismissed by many experts as a whitewash for clearing the Government of any culpability, despite evidence that it had leaked Dr Kelly’s name in an attempt to smear him.
Only now has it emerged that a year after his inquiry was completed, Lord Hutton took unprecedented action to ensure that the vital evidence remains a state secret for so long.
A letter, leaked to The Mail on Sunday, revealed that a 30-year ban was placed on ‘records provided [which were] not produced in evidence’. This is thought to refer to witness statements given to the inquiry which were not disclosed at the time.
In addition, it has now been established that Lord Hutton ordered all medical reports – including the post-mortem findings by pathologist Dr Nicholas Hunt and photographs of Dr Kelly’s body – to remain classified information for 70 years.
The move will stoke fresh speculation about the true circumstances of Dr Kelly's death
The normal rules on post-mortems allow close relatives and ‘properly interested persons’ to apply to see a copy of the report and to ‘inspect’ other documents.
Lord Hutton’s measure has overridden these rules, so the files will not be opened until all such people are likely to be dead.
Last night, the Ministry of Justice was unable to explain the legal basis for Lord Hutton’s order.
The restrictions came to light in a letter from the legal team of Oxfordshire County Council to a group of doctors who are challenging the Hutton verdict.
Last year, a group of doctors, including Dr Powers, compiled a medical dossier as part of their legal challenge to the Hutton verdict.
They argue that Hutton’s conclusion that Dr Kelly killed himself by severing the ulnar artery in his left wrist after taking an overdose of prescription painkillers is untenable because the artery is small and difficult to access, and severing it could not have caused death.
In their 12-page opinion, they concluded: ‘The bleeding from Dr Kelly’s ulnar artery is highly unlikely to have been so voluminous and rapid that it was the cause of death. We advise the instructing solicitors to obtain the autopsy reports so that the concerns of a group of properly interested medical specialists can be answered.’
Tonight, Dr Powers, a former assistant coroner, added: ‘Supposedly all evidence relevant to the cause of death has been heard in public at the time of Lord Hutton’s inquiry. If these secret reports support the suicide finding, what could they contain that could be so sensitive?’
The letter disclosing the 70-year restriction was written by Nick Graham, assistant head of legal and democratic services at Oxfordshire Council.
It states: ‘Lord Hutton made a request for the records provided to the inquiry, not produced in evidence, to be closed for 30 years, and that medical (including post-mortem) reports and photographs be closed for 70 years.’
Nicholas Gardiner, the Chief Coroner for Oxfordshire, confirmed that he had seen the letter.
Order: Lord Hutton has secretly barred the release of all medical records, including the results of the post mortem
Speaking to The Mail on Sunday today, he said: ‘I know that Lord Hutton made that recommendation. Someone told me at the time. Anybody concerned will be dead by then, and that is quite clearly Lord Hutton’s intention.’
Asked what was in the records that made it necessary for them to be embargoed, Mr Gardiner said: ‘They’re Lord Hutton’s records not mine. You’d have to ask him.’
He added that in his opinion Lord Hutton had embargoed the records to protect Dr Kelly’s children.
The inquest into Dr Kelly’s death was suspended before it could begin by the then Lord Chancellor Lord Falconer. He used the Coroners Act to designate the Hutton Inquiry as ‘fulfilling the function of an inquest’.
News that the records will be kept secret comes just days before Mr Blair gives evidence to the Chilcot Inquiry on Friday.
To date, Dr Kelly’s name has scarcely been mentioned at the inquiry. One source who held a private meeting with Sir John Chilcot before the proceedings began said that Sir John had admitted he ‘did not want to touch the Kelly issue’ .
A spokesman for the Ministry of Justice said: ‘Any decision made by Lord Hutton at the time of his inquiry was entirely a matter for him.’
A spokesman for Thames Valley Police said yesterday that it would not be possible to search their records during the weekend.
The Mail on Sunday was unable to contact Lord Hutton.
Keep up the good work Dr. et al. I most of us enjoy a variety off opinions.
On the other hand, Sheeple are people that follow blindly and never question their leaders.
Their simple Motto is:"Follow the A$$hole in front of you"
