Forums > Kitesurfing General

Best light wind TT or mutant

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Created by eppo > 9 months ago, 13 Apr 2011
eppo
WA, 9503 posts
13 Apr 2011 2:14PM
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This would have probably come up before, if someone could direct me or just fire away.

I normally ride a Cardboard Wave 148cm(mutant) - love it and it's not too bad on the lower end, but wouldn't mind getting a few more lower end knots out of my kites, as there is a big gap between the second biggest and the biggest kite.

Suggestions?

ps Not a SB, can't stand em. Something similar to the CB wave or a TT.

Gorgo
VIC, 4982 posts
13 Apr 2011 4:28PM
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The best thing for light wind is a wide flat TT. Mine is a 135x48cm custom TT I had Cardboards make to my specs.

It was based on a plywood board I made and rode for several years. The Cardboard is much lighter.

You could get quite a good result by just plonking some straps on a sheet of 10-12mm marine ply. (Strapless could be fun but a bit limiting.) The natural flex in the ply gives you all the rocker you need when it is loaded up.

A good light wind TT is liking adding an extre 2m onto your kite without the negatives that brings.

The wide board can get a bit skatey if your technique is off, particularly in chop and toeside carves. It does help focus your technique and when you get it right it is magic.

I had a magic session on Sunday. The only one riding for the first hour and having perfect, glassy small waves all to myself for most of the second hour. Bliss!!!

Finless is also good in light winds, although some small fins do make the board more forgiving.

As you probably know, avoid rocker in a light wind board.

Surfboards are bad because of too much rocker and too much fin drag.

Raceboards go faster upwind and at a higher angle but are too hard to ride in really light conditions.

A standard commercial lightwind TT can be almost as a good as a flat, wide TT. They are generally a bit long and flexy to be really good in light winds.

I have never tried a Door style TT. Lots of people say good things about them.

If I had to have only one board and kite it would be my light wind TT and a 10m bow kite.

suface2air
QLD, 701 posts
13 Apr 2011 4:47PM
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Hey gorgo
Do you have the final say too the cardboard plyboard you got made or will cards let us have one . Do i need your permission do get one made is what iam asking i would love to have a nice lite wind board aswell and i have read somewhere else here that you got a board made up to your own design . Sound exzacly what i need .
What did ya name it buy the way .
Thanks in advance Sam

Damo
WA, 641 posts
13 Apr 2011 2:58PM
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Gorgo said...



Raceboards go faster upwind and at a higher angle but are too hard to ride in really light conditions.






You must be doing something really wrong or you have only tried really bad race boards

You should give the Airush Sector a go if you find it hard to ride that in light wind then you must be really struggling to ride anything!



EPPO next time you are in Perth drop in and see us at Airborne and we might be able to hook you up with a demo

Gorgo
VIC, 4982 posts
13 Apr 2011 5:10PM
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suface2air said...

Hey gorgo
Do you have the final say too the cardboard plyboard you got made or will cards let us have one . Do i need your permission do get one made is what iam asking i would love to have a nice lite wind board aswell and i have read somewhere else here that you got a board made up to your own design . Sound exzacly what i need .
What did ya name it buy the way .
Thanks in advance Sam


Nope. I just asked for a board with minimal rocker, a 135x48x30cm tips. They used their standard flex and adjusted the tip width to keep the rails a bit straighter. Just ask them for a lightwind board and they will sort you out.

Gorgo
VIC, 4982 posts
13 Apr 2011 5:22PM
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Damo said...
...

You must be doing something really wrong or you have only tried really bad race boards

...


I have tried the 2009 and 2010 North race boards over a period of several weeks.

By "hard" I mean you have to tack (or gybe) them to turn around. In borderline light conditions you are struggling to just keep the kite flying. Add to the trying to turn with a board that doesn't really want to turn and riding toeside or swapping feet or whatever and you have a recipe for disaster.

On several occasions I have been riding with guys on raceboards. The wind drops out and they muff a gybe and drop the kite and they are swimming.

In extreme situations I have sat in the water flying a figure-8 pattern until the wind picked up and I could ride back to the beach.

On another occasion a raceboard guy rode 6km upwind then back again in the time it took me to get 2-3km in one direction. Raceboards are amazing upwind.

The North boards also had a habit of rounding up into wind if you mistimed your power stroke which is also a bugger in light winds.

While we're at it. Raceboard = big, expensive, fragile, slow downwind, not very turny. Mega-sharp fins of death!!!!

I am told all the good guys tack raceboards and that it is easy when you get good at it. I am still somewhat interested in some form of freeride race board. Maybe when they get cheaper and smaller and some sensible fins on them.

14nce
QLD, 39 posts
13 Apr 2011 5:56PM
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liquid force Lowrider 165.

It basically just a massive TT, rides with very similar feel to my 134 though.

Puetz
NT, 2177 posts
13 Apr 2011 7:17PM
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... I have a lot of fun on an underground 146 x 44 and its a great light wind board for the heavy guy and even better for a lighter guy, plus it is still good when the wind picks up too. For a bigger board, it is quite lively and smooth through the water handling chop no worries. I'm not a fan of the older straps but the new ones look good!

Good luck,

Robbie

Gorgo
VIC, 4982 posts
13 Apr 2011 10:50PM
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Gorgo said...

Damo said...
...

You must be doing something really wrong or you have only tried really bad race boards

...


I have tried the 2009 and 2010 North race boards over a period of several weeks.

....

I am told all the good guys tack raceboards and that it is easy when you get good at it. I am still somewhat interested in some form of freeride race board. Maybe when they get cheaper and smaller and some sensible fins on them.


I just watched the Sector V2 video on the airush web site. It looks very nice. I will look into getting a demo of one.

NJPornstar
WA, 790 posts
13 Apr 2011 11:19PM
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If I was going to go for a light wind TT board it would be 149.5cm long x 44.2cm wide and 29.3 on the tips.
40mm fins, 35mm constant rocker, 7mm double concave, medium flex, wide stance, orange graphic so I dont loose the bugger. And a handle just cause Im a kook rebel.

BrisKites
QLD, 1290 posts
14 Apr 2011 9:24AM
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Nobile Flying Carpet and Flysurfer Race are 2 that come to mind.

default
WA, 1255 posts
14 Apr 2011 8:19AM
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how about a skimboard?

super fun in the light.

Gstar
WA, 391 posts
14 Apr 2011 9:41AM
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Add a harness line and ride double hooked (kite trimmed to max power,) You'll get your extra low end 2 knots. Will improve your board skills too, learning to brake and accelerate using only the board primarily as the sheet system is "locked out."

Not really a skill for learners but great to try in low wind, and as I said it will extend the low end of the kite as a stiff unsheeted wing is more efficient (correctly trimmed.)

If you do go this route then you'll save the cost of a new board. Make sure you get a harness line for kiting and not windsurfing as the kite versions have a QR. My LF kite has the option to ride "double hooked" without the harness line by using the pull down stopper to lock the chicken loop in the full power position. I use it a lot when the wind is marginal, it makes getting up wind, moving with a decent current, quite effortless.

Gorgo
VIC, 4982 posts
14 Apr 2011 12:08PM
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^^^^ How do you stop the kite from stalling when the wind drops out?

Gstar
WA, 391 posts
14 Apr 2011 10:34AM
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Gorgo said...

^^^^ How do you stop the kite from stalling when the wind drops out?


Elaborate!^^^ BTW Why the red thumbs for legit' advice??? HATERS!

Gorgo
VIC, 4982 posts
14 Apr 2011 12:58PM
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I didn't thumb anybody.

In light wind the kite is more likely to stall and drop backwards out of the sky. It happens when the bar is pulled in too hard in the middle of the window, or when the kite comes too far forward in a gust, or simply when the wind drops off to almost nothing.

The solution is to push the bar out and possibly even reach over and pull the front lines to pump it back up into the air. If the kite has already stalled you can down loop it, or let it drop backwards into the middle of the window, then turn it and send it through the middle of the window at speed. All this requires the bar to be pushed out.

You also need air speed to generate power. It is common to push the bar out, generate speed on the down stroke, turn the kite and ease the bar in to convert the speed into power on the upstroke.

I think having a locked chicken loop would work to get more power out of a relatively small kite in moderate winds. I doubt if it would help to get more power out of a larger kite in light winds.

Gstar
WA, 391 posts
14 Apr 2011 11:10AM
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^^^ 14 knots, 20 meter lines and a 14 meter Flow, works fine. Works with my 8 in 15 knots too.:D

I think the point is somewhat confused. This is a technique to use once in the water and flying the kite. Your kite will fly in a steady 10 knots on the beach, but you cant ride your board with it in that wind.

Once hooked into your usual set up (chicken loop,) head out with a couple of full power strokes, once planing, double hook and then trim the kite for the best power, (do not oversheet the trim as the kite, as you described will reverse , overfly, or drop out. Most modern kites have less of these traits, making them more stable but with reduced performance. It's what the market demands.)

Having the kite remain solid with no change in the angle of attack will in fact make it more predictable and stable, that's not to say more af a hazard on the beach, but in the water the benefits are obvious. Every time you change the AOA (angle of attack) you take wind and speed out of the kite. Removing this feature lets you get all available performance from the kite all of the time. It's a low wind technique that will extend the lower range of your kite.


GalahOnTheBay
NSW, 4188 posts
14 Apr 2011 1:22PM
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Gstar said...




Lol old school! Can you even buy those loops these days?

The reason these work is because once you dial in the "right" amount of power and lock it in, the kite flys better because you are not mucking around with the sheeting all the time.

Generally for light winds the "right" amount of power is not pulled all the way in (stalls too much), but just short of that to let the kite fly

freedomtrail
QLD, 66 posts
14 Apr 2011 1:33PM
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Me and a couple of the guys at our local beach use the underground stella 144cm x 46cm, rides similar to a smaller TT and gets you going earlier when the winds are light.

puppetonastring
WA, 3619 posts
14 Apr 2011 11:36AM
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If you are serious about finding the RIGHT lightwind twin tip I would seriously recommend you try the new Shinn King George before spending your hard earned.
Its only just arrived in Oz so I havent had a chance to try nit myself yet but first reports are all very favourable with suggestions that it rides like a regular twinny - with very few of the 'big board' drawbacks of similar sized options in the past.
Woodys Kite Surf & SUP have the King George available for demo for anyone wanting to test it out.

see : www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/Review/No-I-shall-have-mistresses-King-George-II-Quote/

Gstar
WA, 391 posts
14 Apr 2011 11:39AM
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My new rig = 2006 6 meter Matrix. ($75 still crispy)

Plus new Airush pulley bar with new 15 meter lines. ($75)

Lots of "oldschool" fun on this in 15 knots

au_rick
WA, 752 posts
14 Apr 2011 12:06PM
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Gstar said...

Add a harness line and ride double hooked (kite trimmed to max power,) You'll get your extra low end 2 knots. Will improve your board skills too, learning to brake and accelerate using only the board primarily as the sheet system is "locked out."

Not really a skill for learners but great to try in low wind, and as I said it will extend the low end of the kite as a stiff unsheeted wing is more efficient (correctly trimmed.)

If you do go this route then you'll save the cost of a new board. Make sure you get a harness line for kiting and not windsurfing as the kite versions have a QR. My LF kite has the option to ride "double hooked" without the harness line by using the pull down stopper to lock the chicken loop in the full power position. I use it a lot when the wind is marginal, it makes getting up wind, moving with a decent current, quite effortless.




for the sake of my ignorance, what does "double hooked" entail exactly ?
also, what is the difference between this and just being fully sheeted out ?
thanks.

Gorgo
VIC, 4982 posts
14 Apr 2011 2:37PM
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It's being fully sheeted in and using a separate harness line so you can hook in to that and not risk letting the bar out with your arms.

It's how we used to ride 10 years ago before the chicken loop was invented.

Gstar
WA, 391 posts
14 Apr 2011 3:22PM
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au_rick said...

Gstar said...

Add a harness line and ride double hooked (kite trimmed to max power,) You'll get your extra low end 2 knots. Will improve your board skills too, learning to brake and accelerate using only the board primarily as the sheet system is "locked out."

Not really a skill for learners but great to try in low wind, and as I said it will extend the low end of the kite as a stiff unsheeted wing is more efficient (correctly trimmed.)

If you do go this route then you'll save the cost of a new board. Make sure you get a harness line for kiting and not windsurfing as the kite versions have a QR. My LF kite has the option to ride "double hooked" without the harness line by using the pull down stopper to lock the chicken loop in the full power position. I use it a lot when the wind is marginal, it makes getting up wind, moving with a decent current, quite effortless.




for the sake of my ignorance, what does "double hooked" entail exactly ?
also, what is the difference between this and just being fully sheeted out ?
thanks.


It's like riding with the kite unhooked but hooked in.

Gstar
WA, 391 posts
14 Apr 2011 3:27PM
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Gorgo said...

It's being fully sheeted in and using a separate harness line so you can hook in to that and not risk letting the bar out with your arms.

It's how we used to ride 10 years ago before the chicken loop was invented.


Just for you Gorgo.

GalahOnTheBay
NSW, 4188 posts
14 Apr 2011 6:47PM
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^^^ As much as I love that video of Lou that's not what we mean - Gorgo the old fuddy duddy remebers...

I meant something like this (ps: you have no idea how long it took me poking around on google to find a pic with a mainloop on it ):



au_rick said...

for the sake of my ignorance, what does "double hooked" entail exactly ?
also, what is the difference between this and just being fully sheeted out ?
thanks.


I have never heard it called "double hooked" before - in the dark ages we used to call them "main loops"

Imagine riding whatever bar setup you currently ride in the way you normally ride it hooked in (anything with a chicken loop that is), pulling the bar in to a point most of the way in (almost full power but not quite) and then locking the bar off there. So your chicken loop is still connected, and if you want to depower all you do is pull the bar in (power up) enough to flip out the main loop.

When you don't want the loop it hangs down limply (!) out of the way of everything.

It's not like riding unhooked as once you get the hang of it with the right setup you can cruise around all day and not actually do that much work with your arms, as you are only exerting force when you turn the kite rather than running the kite straight. Admittedly this is less of an issue these days as even the "heavy on the bar" kites are not as haevy as they used to be...

This isn't "the answer" to making your 9m a light wind machine, but it sure does help (in my experience).

adrood
42 posts
14 Apr 2011 8:14PM
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well i live at a light wind area that really makes my ozone zephyr the standar kite i pump most of the times. The TT i like to use is a f-one fifty pro , that isnt that much of a light wind kite , more like a big rookie board i would say. It is very easy riding but on my feet (intermediate to advanced level) you can pop jump backloop etc easy

I am 80 kgr and i can ride at 8 knots if steady you can do small things.

I am also waiting a underground kipuna 6,2 to add to my collection so i can send some feedback when i will try it

eppo
WA, 9503 posts
15 Apr 2011 7:04PM
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Ta will try the hooked in version like the old days (yes I remember), think I have one of those somewhere in the shed. Will look into the boards recommended as well.

Eppo

strez
QLD, 58 posts
17 Apr 2011 11:05AM
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north used that idea for years with the micro loop . acidently hooked in = carnage

Slack
WA, 685 posts
17 Apr 2011 7:03PM
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Had a great session this arvo down at Contacios on my 08 Spleene Zone.
They are a fantastic board, might be hard to find one though.
(link below of someone elses Zone)

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Got-my-Spleene-Zone-today/

eppo
WA, 9503 posts
17 Apr 2011 7:07PM
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yeh good boards, but I wouldn't call them light wind boards, whatsoever. yeh not many around anymore, they were a good design.

Slack said...


Had a great session this arvo down at Contacios on my 08 Spleene Zone.
They are a fantastic board, might be hard to find one though.
(link below of someone elses Zone)

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Got-my-Spleene-Zone-today/




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"Best light wind TT or mutant" started by eppo