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Forums > Kitesurfing General

C vs. Bow: RELAUNCH COMP

Reply
Created by Moritz > 9 months ago, 14 Feb 2007
Moritz
NSW, 180 posts
14 Feb 2007 4:09PM
Thumbs Up

Ladies and gentlemen,

according to Mr. Hirschausen - from WA - C kites relaunch faster than Bow kites. I and many others challenge that statement.

Given Mr. Hirschausen lives in Geralton, which is not really around the corner, I propose the following.

Lets make use of a video "referee" to see who's right.

Rules:
1. The kite needs to be lying in the water straight downwind on its leading edge
2. The film needs to contain a section displaying a windmeter at the exact location and time where the kite is going to be relaunched and the measurements need to be displayed in knots.
3. The tape counter information needs to be displayed at all times on the video feed (this is to avoid sneaky editing and higher speed playback to cheat on the time)
4. The total relaunch time is defined as the time where the rider grabs any of the lines to initiate the relaunch procedure until the kite has reached the zenith (defined as any point between 11am and 1pm up in the sky.)
5. The tape needs to record the kite size, brand, etc.
6. Only standard line lengths are allowed (by standard I mean the line length that is provided with the kite in a normal configuration). The line length must be quoted.
7. Only “safe” relaunches will be considered as valid (i.e. any style of potentially dangerous hot launches will not be considered as they don’t represent what a kiter would do in normal conditions)

The footage can be posted under youtube.com and shared through a link on this forum.

Please feel free to add any rules that may help making this exercise clear and comparable.

M

newcastle_justin
NSW, 149 posts
14 Feb 2007 4:30PM
Thumbs Up

quote:
Originally posted by Moritz

The kite needs to be lying in the water straight downwind on its leading edge


Moritz,

I ride a 9m crossbow and have done since they were originally released. I totally agree with you that when the kite is in this position, relaunch is WAY faster than a 5th line C kite. However, if I do any serious trick and bail, unless I am careful the kite will easily roll onto its back. Fair enough this can be avoided, but bailing on a trick you should be able to simply let go (like a 5th line C kite). Under this situation, it is possible to relaunch, but it is very ugly and way slower than a 5th line C kite.

I reckon they should have improved since my 06 9m bow though, so my question is this: with a 10m (or smaller) SB2 (or other new generation bow) - if after a bail the kite comes slamming down, can it roll onto its back and if so how easy is relaunch then?

I reckon that with "uncontrolled" crashes my 9m bow rolls onto its back probably around 60-70% of the time.

Comments?

Justin

Moritz
NSW, 180 posts
14 Feb 2007 4:54PM
Thumbs Up

Justin,

can you clarify what you mean by rolling on it's back. If you mean just lying on the water like a "U" (similar to the interim C-relaunch position) it's fairly easy to get it to relauch. I normally give one of the outside lines a good yank and in 95% of the cases one of the wingtips folds and the kite goes onto a wingtip and is up in the air.

If you mean invert with your rolling on it's back, you make a fair point. I have learnt to minimise that by keeping the tension on the lines at all times. This stops the kite from rolling over and inverting.

But even if the kite inverts it is quite easy to univert if you pull on the outside lines a bit more than usual. It may happen that your lines are crossed once the kite is back in the air, but even that is easy to fix (even when in the water).

The considerations you have to make are:
1. On a powered trick would you rather have less risk of inversion (and as I said, that can be minimised) or more confidence that the kite will depower instantly potentially avoiding some serious injury??
2. Would you rather have a kite that is very likely to crash and end up on it's LE or a kite the often even remains up in the air after missing a handle pass for example or when it crashes often ends up on the wing tip just waiting for you to relaunch??
3. In wave riding, would you rather have a kite that allows you to fly a smaller/faster one (given the higher projected area of Bows) or a bigger C-kite??
4. In waves, where hard core crashes are less likely, would you rather have a kite that relaunches easily or a kite that looses valuable time to be relaunched??
5. In waves, would you like to have a kite that allows you to almost completely turn the power off in bottom or top turns allowing you to ride the wave more like a surfer or a kite that doesn't offer that???
5. In any water, would you prefer having to pay for 3-4 kites to cover the same wind range as 2 bows

I think there are a lot of reasons for Bows, even though I miss quite a few things on them (e.g. the direct feel of a C, the constand power during loops, etc.).

I'm hopefull that the kitecompanies will make their Cs have more of the benefits of bows and bows have more of the good things about Cs.

Anyway, that's a different topic. This thread is about which kites can relaunch quicker under normal circumstances....

M

em
318 posts
14 Feb 2007 2:58PM
Thumbs Up

Moritz?... You really need some wind BADLY mate... (don't stress: it's coming back tomorrow!!!)
1- who cares which one relaunches better, as long as it does relaunch??? Kites are like boardies... the one that fits you is the right one for you... nah? Of course, if it's a pink boardie, it's A LOT better....
2- Is it really that important to find out if lemon tart taste better than blueberry one?
But if you want to put a footage on youtube of which tart gets eaten the fastest, do: might be a lot more fun to watch!
3- My north Rhino just doesn't want to crash on it's leading edge... whenever I crash it, it relaunches right away on its own... 1 second and bang, back up in the sky...that's really too bad: it means I can't be a part of your competition.... Bummer...
4- I'm trying to find out which one makes hotter riders, blond or dark guys? Can you help me???? I would really like to know before purchasing one....

newcastle_justin
NSW, 149 posts
14 Feb 2007 5:03PM
Thumbs Up

Moritz,

Thanks for the clarification. When I say "on its back" I do mean it looks like a "U". Problem is with my bow once it gets into that position it normally inverts a few seconds later. Fair enough with line tension this can be prevented, but with a C kite there is nothing to worry about.

I guess all I am saying is that for your comp you need to define what is "normal" for relaunching "from". For my bow, 70% of the time it is as you describe (i.e. I have maintained line tension) - but 30% of the time it is in the U (and likely inverted) position (i.e. I didn't grab it quick enough). I would say for the people I have taught on my bow it is more like 30% / 70%.

I do hear your argument about why bows are better (I ride one!), just wanted to clarify the starting point for your comp. And as I said, they have probably sorted it out for the newer models.

Cheers
Justin

ianyoung
WA, 649 posts
14 Feb 2007 3:19PM
Thumbs Up

Can I enter this comp with FlySurfer foils - guaranteed to beat either C or bow from ANY position!

hirschausen
WA, 422 posts
14 Feb 2007 3:33PM
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No Youngie! You Can't! You are not allowed to let the world know the secrets of the flysurfer re-launch.

I will openly admit that Ian will beat me, there yuo all have it.

But Ian, feel free to come up. I'll have a crack! Maybe you will have a bad session. (If we can get you back from the waves to actually do it)

Moritz:

I propose a change to your conditions, - attempt a handle pass trick and throw the bar while inverted. Let's do it from when the kiter hits the water to riding away again.

Hows that sound.

NJPornstar
WA, 790 posts
14 Feb 2007 3:59PM
Thumbs Up

Yeh I can do that pretty quick,Pretty easy when you have an idea of whats going on... but I got one broken leg
Hirch put me on the speedy launch team
Can I be # 007.

NJPornstar
WA, 790 posts
14 Feb 2007 4:40PM
Thumbs Up

I recon everyone brings 1 slab each
we throw them all in a big hole full of ice
and winner takes the left overs

No 6 liners, helium or handles allowed.

Moritz
NSW, 180 posts
14 Feb 2007 7:26PM
Thumbs Up

quote:
Originally posted by hirschausen


Moritz:

I propose a change to your conditions, - attempt a handle pass trick and throw the bar while inverted. Let's do it from when the kiter hits the water to riding away again.

Hows that sound.



I take you are confirming that the bow under standard conditions launches easier?

To your second suggestion I'd say you'll probably loose again. One of our local guys has let go of the bar in all sorts of positions during handle pass attempts. Only in 20% of the cases the kite really crashes. In most cases it's either still in the air while he's hanging onto the handle-pass leash or the kite is sitting on either side on it's wingtip.

Look, if you want to win, just change the rules to: The bow kite must invert and you'll likely to win it (even though I can relaunch an iverted bow very quickly and fly it inverted - I agree it's not great and the kite sucks then, but it can be done).

M

Moritz
NSW, 180 posts
14 Feb 2007 7:31PM
Thumbs Up

quote:
Originally posted by em

Moritz?... You really need some wind BADLY mate... (don't stress: it's coming back tomorrow!!!)



Em,

I'm sorry, but I think you missed the point. I started this new thread as a challenge that Hirschauser had proposed in the Pro rider thread.

It has nothing to do with not enough wind. He stated Cs launch better than bows and I happen to disagree (like many others).

M

511kev
NSW, 55 posts
14 Feb 2007 7:47PM
Thumbs Up

Having ridden both over a number of years I agree with Moritz. Ease of relaunch - nothing beats a bow in particular an SB. I have tried 2 other bow kites which offered some degree of difficulty and I've ridden quite a few C kites. The SB is by far the easiest kite to relaunch anywhere any time.

NJPornstar
WA, 790 posts
14 Feb 2007 5:55PM
Thumbs Up


Who ever crashes in all situations and has the most successful relaunches takes the beers. All wind strengths included.

NJPornstar
WA, 790 posts
14 Feb 2007 6:02PM
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First you need to relaunch faster than my girl before you can enter the comp.

hirschausen
WA, 422 posts
14 Feb 2007 7:36PM
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Yeah, yeah,
Bring it on. Let's just drink beers and have a re-launch comp, I still reckon I'll win no matter how much you try to convince me that the SB CB or LB can do (I have no idea which kite you are talkig about by the way as I don't get acronyms)

Just chuck it, video it, time it and post it. I'll expect the beers to come via registered post though.

Youngie, you coming up?. I'll have some beers soon to wager against you and your modified parachutes.

Macca Wollongong
NSW, 295 posts
15 Feb 2007 12:53AM
Thumbs Up

ill enter with the instinct, which is now modded :D i havnt seen one invert yet and when there is wind they go up quick.

the last 2 times i been out, the wind was less than 15 knots no upwind riding and relunch too atleast 5 minutes! and 500m of beach.

gruezi
WA, 3464 posts
14 Feb 2007 11:25PM
Thumbs Up

Yea, relaunch comp at Kitestock..you coming Gav?

Nick

PS I ride a bow too Loved it today,nice light wind kite...IMO everyone learns to relaunch their own special type...no biggie, just practice. I do like the way bows just hang there when you throw the bar...50% of the time for me.

andrewm
WA, 243 posts
14 Feb 2007 11:32PM
Thumbs Up

well ive already broken half the rules but heres my relaunch anyway. Im sure it can be done much faster.

7m 2006 waroo.
Capetown, 20kts.

gruezi
WA, 3464 posts
14 Feb 2007 11:38PM
Thumbs Up

Fantastic andrewm....now that's the benchmark.

Kitehard
WA, 2782 posts
Site Sponsor
15 Feb 2007 1:12AM
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Hey Gav,

I'll have a piece of that bet. Your Reactor against my DNA. Airush DNA, guaranteed fastest relaunch of any bow/hybrid.

Only problem is getting my DNA's to stay downwind on their leading edge, they just roll up onto their wingtip ready for launch in neutral without doing anything (seriously, no hands on the bar). I'll probably have to get someone to hold it downwind and in position for it to be even slightly fair.

See you at kitestock!

gooseondabay
NSW, 109 posts
15 Feb 2007 3:55AM
Thumbs Up

quote:
Originally posted by em

Moritz?... You really need some wind BADLY mate... (don't stress: it's coming back tomorrow!!!)
1- who cares which one relaunches better, as long as it does relaunch??? Kites are like boardies... the one that fits you is the right one for you... nah? Of course, if it's a pink boardie, it's A LOT better....
2- Is it really that important to find out if lemon tart taste better than blueberry one?
But if you want to put a footage on youtube of which tart gets eaten the fastest, do: might be a lot more fun to watch!
3- My north Rhino just doesn't want to crash on it's leading edge... whenever I crash it, it relaunches right away on its own... 1 second and bang, back up in the sky...that's really too bad: it means I can't be a part of your competition.... Bummer...
4- I'm trying to find out which one makes hotter riders, blond or dark guys? Can you help me???? I would really like to know before purchasing one....





What tha ! there must be some logic in this but buggered if I can see it. Lack of wind is bending minds

gooseondabay
NSW, 109 posts
15 Feb 2007 3:55AM
Thumbs Up

quote:
Originally posted by em

Moritz?... You really need some wind BADLY mate... (don't stress: it's coming back tomorrow!!!)
1- who cares which one relaunches better, as long as it does relaunch??? Kites are like boardies... the one that fits you is the right one for you... nah? Of course, if it's a pink boardie, it's A LOT better....
2- Is it really that important to find out if lemon tart taste better than blueberry one?
But if you want to put a footage on youtube of which tart gets eaten the fastest, do: might be a lot more fun to watch!
3- My north Rhino just doesn't want to crash on it's leading edge... whenever I crash it, it relaunches right away on its own... 1 second and bang, back up in the sky...that's really too bad: it means I can't be a part of your competition.... Bummer...
4- I'm trying to find out which one makes hotter riders, blond or dark guys? Can you help me???? I would really like to know before purchasing one....





What tha ! there must be some logic in this but buggered if I can see it. Lack of wind is bending minds

Maxxl
WA, 75 posts
15 Feb 2007 8:50AM
Thumbs Up

EM not enough cigarettes in your pocket??? I always thought that the Frensh were known for the dumbest competitions!

ianyoung
WA, 649 posts
15 Feb 2007 9:09AM
Thumbs Up

Unfortunately Gav I'll miss Kitestock this year as I'll be overseas

em
318 posts
15 Feb 2007 11:21AM
Thumbs Up

quote:
Originally posted by Moritz
Em,
I'm sorry, but I think you missed the point. I started this new thread as a challenge that Hirschauser had proposed in the Pro rider thread.
It has nothing to do with not enough wind. He stated Cs launch better than bows and I happen to disagree (like many others).
M



You said it mate: people DISAGREE... Do you really think that this thread is going to change anything to this fact???
Agree to disagree and let it go. Seriously, this whole C versus bow is really getting old by now. This isn't a challenge, it's a waste of wind and fun!
Ride and let ride, relaunch your kite faster than anybody and let people struggle if they're happy to...
Any way, we all know by now bow's are gay, so why give a damn????
Plus it seems like the wind is coming back, so it's more likely that you're going to forget about this brilliant competition very soon.... We will go eat tarts afterwards if you want and we can disagree on which one taste the nicest... I'm definitely blueberry, telling you right away... We can start arguing about it right now if you want...
or we can also accept the fact that different people like different things...
which is all goooooood....

hm, Maxxl? You lost me mate....

NJPornstar
WA, 790 posts
15 Feb 2007 11:41AM
Thumbs Up


FOR THE BEER!
We need All situations, hopefully your good enough and your kite lasts all day.

-Well powered unhooked kite loop release.

-Fack an airpass, point the kite directly at the water 30-35 knts and release.

-We need to tangle 2 kites in 35knts and see what happens.

-You need to self land successfully 100% of the time in 30-35knts.

- Also a slider. Keep hitting it all day. First to loose their kite or get dragged over the slider looses their stash of beers.

em
318 posts
15 Feb 2007 12:13PM
Thumbs Up

quote:
Originally posted by NJPornstar


FOR THE BEER!
We need All situations, hopefully your good enough and your kite lasts all day.

-Well powered unhooked kite loop release.

-Fack an airpass, point the kite directly at the water 30-35 knts and release.

-We need to tangle 2 kites in 35knts and see what happens.

-You need to self land successfully 100% of the time in 30-35knts.

- Also a slider. Keep hitting it all day. First to loose their kite or get dragged over the slider looses their stash of beers.





I like you!

NJPornstar
WA, 790 posts
15 Feb 2007 12:36PM
Thumbs Up

Hey Em I like you too.
What flavour of beer do you like?

em
318 posts
15 Feb 2007 3:51PM
Thumbs Up

quote:
Originally posted by NJPornstar

Hey Em I like you too.
What flavour of beer do you like?



LOL.
Beer???? Did you say Beer?
I only drink Vodka mate. Zubrowka if possible... Best vodka in the world. Me think. But you can disagree if you want... And if you want, we can even have both. You have your beer, I have my vodka in a perfect happy world: how sweet!
So, when do we start our wasted comp?????

user
WA, 1140 posts
15 Feb 2007 4:43PM
Thumbs Up

There seems to be a misunderstanding here Em.

This not an argument about which kite you LIKE best.Its about which kite will relaunch the fastest in real time.

No choices. No preferences.No "gay" or not.

Just cold hard facts !

All Bow type kite riders will already know that a Bow will launch much quicker than a "C" kite.Just pull a line and up it pops !

Ther is NO way that a C kite will re-launch quicker!

Everytime me and my Bow riding friends watch a beginner on a C kite being washed down wind untill they get dragged onto shore ,a sorry mess of bedragled kite and tangled lines,we wonder how we ever got going using C kites ! Hard to relaunch,slow turning,large sizes (remember 18m and 20 m ? )
Now we are riding 9 and 12 and going much better and re-launching in a second and a half !

Macca Wollongong
NSW, 295 posts
15 Feb 2007 7:46PM
Thumbs Up

hell, you can crash a bow in a set, and get it up before the next wave hits you, on a c-kite you would have already flagged it



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"C vs. Bow: RELAUNCH COMP" started by Moritz