We seem to have people who are passionate about foils and others who won't touch them. Can we have a discussion on the pros and cons of foils/inflatibles?
And here we go....
KIT33R - as someone who flew Peter Lynn foils for many years before switching to inflatables, I was always amazed by the credible comments made by many "anti" foil kiters. Of course, the absolutely overwhelming majority of those comments came from crew who frequently admitted to never having flown a foil, so you know, that credibility and advice was always "reliable".
If you want some opinion/advice from one who's previously flown foils, PM me. As you know, mature debate on Seabreeze ain't always held in the open...
What do you mean by "foil"? Cos like C, delta, SLE, bow, hybrid etc etc they ALL have different pros and cons. You got something specific in mind?
Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
What do you mean by "foil"? Cos like C, delta, SLE, bow, hybrid etc etc they ALL have different pros and cons. You got something specific in mind?
Just a general open question, nothing specific.
This debate was covered several years ago and of course inflatibles in all their forms have moved on since then. I don't see many foils about now but those who choose to fly them must have pretty specific reasons to go against the general consensus.
I don't fly a foil and have no plans to do so but they are popular on the snow and for landboarding but relatively abscent on the water except in very light winds.
Have foils advanced to the same degree that inflatibles have?
I used to be a test rider for a foil manufacturer in the early 90's. At that time foils were vastly superior to inflatable kites. Depowerable, huge range, easy relaunch. I could ride in 15-50 knots on my 7.5m foil.
Bow kites came along and the advantages of foils mostly disappeared. Bow kites had the range of foils with much more resilience to collapse and folding up.
The real downside of foils were:
- grovelling around in the sand spreading them out and checking the bridles etc.
- as above and having to roll up the kite while you're damp and on the beach at the end of a session. (I used to ground handle the kite by the bridles to a grassy location so I could pack up without grovelling in the sand.)
- the material went porous much more quickly. The bladders and struts of inflatable kites keeps the fabric up and away from the sand.
Foils were also much more fragile than inflatable kites. A hard crash on a foil will always result in a burst seam or cell wall. I have never ever broken an inflatable kite. On the other hand, it is much, much easier to repair a foil than an inflatable. A bit of tape and over-sew the edges and it's good to go.
The only negative of inflatable kites is having to carry a pump around.
They sure have KIT!
I am so glad you've asked because I have both types of kites in various sizes for various winds/conditions.
The best thing, personally about "foils" as some call them (I prefer self-inflatable kites - SIK) is their portability and small form factor. I have a backpack no bigger than one for a 7mt leading edge inflatable (LEI) kite and I can fit both an 8mtr and a 12mtr kite with bars all in the one bag.
The other thing I love about them is their portability and quick launch time. Where I kite, guys usually prepare on the grass area next to the car park and walk themselves and kites over sand dunes, thissles and bushes to the beach, to rig up. With a SIK I just take the lot as a package to the sand, unroll, connect and fly! It's easy and no back pain inflating them either. And of course you can easily self launch and land them. Landing one is not hard with the right control of the bar, or even easier still with a sand stake.
I have a Montana HQ for land kiting and a Flysurfer for water. The Flysurfer is fantastic, and the wind range for her being at 8mt is anything from 12knots to 25knots. One kite for most conditions. The Montana is 12mt and it's a great land kite as it allows for easy jumps and boost.
The only time I use a LEI kite is when I want to kite into deep water way past the shore line (300mt+ into the ocean). It's more a placibo mentality thinking that at least if I have issues, I have something that floats. But mind you, even with a SIK kite, you can create float to some degree by trapping the air already inside the kite. So horses for courses.
The only thing about SIKs that I don't like is the higher chance of tangles if not packed down properly. You have to use a special method of rolling to the centre, pushing all air out and then winding the lines whilst still connected to the kite. But after many times doing it, it becomes 2nd nature.
Oh and the SIKs fall less often out of the sky. They have great "auto zenith".
And this just changes the game entirely! Single skin. Awesome power in light winds, full depower abilities, and crash proof. Not sure on how they would work on water though (probably not!).
Just as an aside, the Flysurfer kites have always had overly complicated bridles and a poor depower system.
High end paragliders are going to 2 and 3 line (2 or 3 rows of bridle lines). The kites I used were 2-3 line kites 10 years ago. Flysurfer still use complicated, multi-row bridle systems.
In recent years several paraglider manufacturers have brought out single skin, light weight wings. They're light and simple and the performance is greatly reduced compared to a fully functional double-skin wing. I would be pleasantly surprised if the Flysurfer Peak offered more than basic performance compared to a double skin wing.
Select to expand quotearloj said..
flew one the other weekend, 15m. Cost $8
Was that your parking fee for the carpark
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
Just as an aside, the Flysurfer kites have always had overly complicated bridles and a poor depower system.
High end paragliders are going to 2 and 3 line (2 or 3 rows of bridle lines). The kites I used were 2-3 line kites 10 years ago. Flysurfer still use complicated, multi-row bridle systems.
In recent years several paraglider manufacturers have brought out single skin, light weight wings. They're light and simple and the performance is greatly reduced compared to a fully functional double-skin wing. I would be pleasantly surprised if the Flysurfer Peak offered more than basic performance compared to a double skin wing.
Ah, the bridle-line-phobics raise their ugly heads 
What kind of paraglider? In the videos where I've noticed, they've had A, B, C, D and brake (or Z) rows like in the pic below... that's 5 rows to the 4 on the Speed3s. On other PGs, I've seen 4 rows... those seemed more sporty. Speed3 uses ABCZ bridles, the smaller Speed4 ABZ.
Poor depower? Pull the other one!
You know that you just lay the kite out, then jiggle the lines a bit to flap out the tangles in the bridles...? Like untangling LEI lines and (gasp!) bridles, don't go whaling away on them to get knots or tangles out, gently jiggle them.
Set up a Flysurfer... unroll parallel to the wind, fold over a wing tip, dump sand on it. What's hard about that?
And... there's video around of a guy water relaunching a peak.
Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
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Long story short, either you like 'em and can live with the quirks, or you don't and you have to live with LEI quirks.
Kamikuza,
you have very correctly hit the nail on the head - if you like foils, fly them. I loved PL foils, & flew them for 5yrs - benefits; yes. Problems; yes. Inflatables? benefits; yes. Problems; yes.
this whole debate is akin to the automatic v manual (cars) debate. Credit to those making contributions on this thread today - I seriously suspected the conversation was going to become a debacle as it has in the past.
A mate had a couple flysurfers 7 years ago.Cost $3,000 each then.An inflatible had four strings,his foil had unlimited amount(too complicated) and needed regular tuning which a guy in Vic. and W.A.could do.Kiters 7years ago felt safer with inflatibles relaunching off water and self rescuing than foils.
Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
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Ah, the bridle-line-phobics raise their ugly heads
What kind of paraglider? In the videos where I've noticed, they've had A, B, C, D and brake (or Z) rows like in the pic below... ......
Thank you for your long and considered reply. Unfortunately you have dealt with issues you a) know nothing about, and b) things I did not say.
The vast majority of paragliders have been 3 line wings since 2010, with possibly a 4-way fork on the centre C's giving a small section of D lines. Most high performance wings have only As and Ds.
The grovelling I was talking about was the need to sand down your kite while you prepare to launch, and the need to get down and squeeze the air out and roll the kite up before you can leave the beach. Even side launching you need to put enough sand on the kite to stop it flapping about in the wind. The battens in an Arc make it easy enough to roll the kite up neatly at the end of a session.
Contrast this with carrying an inflated kite by the bridles down to the beach, and after popping it down on the grass near the car to dry while you get changed. No need for getting down in the sand ever. Even if you can't carry it inflated you can leave the struts closed and roll the kite up and carry it without getting into the sand. I used to roll my foils around the bar, go to the car, unroll them and get any sand off and do any drying, then roll them up again.
As for Flysurfer bridles, I see the Speed is a true 3-liner. However, the upper cascades are around 1.0-1.4m long. The lower level is 3.0-3.3m long. Even my paraglider only has 30-40cm upper cascades. The kites I had 10 years ago had much cleaner, much simpler bridles. At the time the depower was far more effective than that on offer from Flysurfers. I would expect the advances from paragliding to trickle down to Flysurfer kites. Ozone are already using paraglider technology in kites. Skywalk, the paraglider arm of Flysurfer, make seriously good gliders with all the current technology. They could do the same as Ozone.
I am somewhat interested in getting a Flysurfer now to ride with my light wind kit, unfortunately the price is getting up to paraglider costs and I can't test fly them anywhere. I can test fly most of the paragliders I want to buy.
Select to expand quotetowradgi said..
A mate had a couple flysurfers 7 years ago.Cost $3,000 each then.An inflatible had four strings,his foil had unlimited amount(too complicated) and needed regular tuning which a guy in Vic. and W.A.could do.Kiters 7years ago felt safer with inflatibles relaunching off water and self rescuing than foils.
Strings :D Unlimited LOL Too complicated ROFL please stahp
"Regular tuning" takes about 15 minutes - assuming you can count to 4 and can take 15 minutes out of your schedule once a year. Takes me longer to tune my Cab bars... that damn knot won't come undone!
Again, if you've only flown bows and have to relaunch a C-kite, you're going to be in trouble... same thing goes for foils. Or driving a manual when you've only had autos.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..Kamikuza said..
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Ah, the bridle-line-phobics raise their ugly heads
What kind of paraglider? In the videos where I've noticed, they've had A, B, C, D and brake (or Z) rows like in the pic below... ......
Thank you for your long and considered reply. Unfortunately you have dealt with issues you a) know nothing about, and b) things I did not say.
The vast majority of paragliders have been 3 line wings with possibly a 4-way fork on the centre C's giving a small section of D lines. Most high performance wings have only As and Ds.
The grovelling I was talking about was the need to sand down your kite while you prepare to launch, and the need to get down and squeeze the air out and roll the kite up before you can leave the beach. Even side launching you need to put enough sand on the kite to stop it flapping about in the wind. The battens in an Arc make it easy enough to roll the kite up neatly at the end of a session.
Contrast this with carrying an inflated kite by the bridles down to the beach, and after popping it down on the grass near the car to dry while you get changed. No need for getting down in the sand ever. Even if you can't carry it inflated you can leave the struts closed and roll the kite up and carry it without getting into the sand. I used to roll my foils around the bar, go to the car, unroll them and get any sand off and do any drying, then roll them up again.
As for Flysurfer bridles, I see the Speed is a true 3-liner. However, the upper cascades are around 1.0-1.4m long. The lower level is 3.0-3.3m long. Even my paraglider only has 30-40cm upper cascades. The kites I had 10 years ago had much cleaner, much simpler bridles. At the time the depower was far more effective than that on offer from Flysurfers. I would expect the advances from paragliding to trickle down to Flysurfer kites. Ozone are already using paraglider technology in kites. Skywalk, the paraglider arm of Flysurfer, make seriously good gliders with all the current technology. They could do the same as Ozone.
I am somewhat interested in getting a Flysurfer now to ride with my light wind kit, unfortunately the price is getting up to paraglider costs and I can't test fly them anywhere. I can test fly most of the paragliders I want to buy.
I count 4 risers and a brake line in that pic... is that not a paraglider?
PG and FSers - apples and oranges 
Do you roll up your LEI... without kneeling down?
Must be nice to have a lawn to set up on. Only sandy beaches here... sand all over the place, no matter what you fly 
What were you flying 10 years ago?
There's a very good reason why the FSers have the bridle systems they do now...
What's filtered from the Ozone PG to their kites?
Select to expand quotesurfingboye said..
do doonas have good down-the-line drift?
Do wave-kites go well in racing? Right tool for the job.
There ARE guys who use FSers for wave riding... always thought arcs had promise for surfing...
I think I am qualified to answer this question.
Foils.
advantages
faster and easy launch and land in low and moderate winds.
no pumping
more stable in clean winds. eg let go of the bar and the fly there and don't instantly start to call out of the sky.
More glide typically.
More robust. They last a lot longer than a lei and wont as easily be damaged as they fold around stuff.
Less chance of a powered death loop. They loose their power when they loose their shape.
Smoother to fly in the sweet spot
More power per M squared.
better low wind performance.
smaller pack down size.
You can take extra kites on adventures, no need to take a pump with you.
multiple fix point bridles means if a bridle line breaks the kite usually still flies
Disadvantaged
less depower at the bar.
worse in turbulent rotor conditions
slower turning size for size.
can't easily land at the edge of the window.
limited self rescue options.
Lei,
advantages
fast turning
huge depower
better in high wind and can handle turbulent rotor better
easy self rescue options
buoyancy aid.
better drifting and slack lining.
safer high wind solo landing options.
less bridles
less drag
disadvantages
setup,packup time.
damages very easily
devalues very fast
wears out very fast
light wind performance,
death loops,
I think you are too, Plummet... and hopefully you're a lot less sensitive to comments on your posts and won't go all full-sarcastic on us
You think your S3 15 has less depower than other kites that size/power? I think one of the best things about the Speed3s is their wind range...
That is of course assuming that the "foils" you're talking about is ONLY Flysurfers. Didn't you have some arcs too?
Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
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I count 4 risers and a brake line in that pic... is that not a paraglider?
It's an antique. A modern glider will have 10mm risers, 3 or 2 risers, but sometimes with split risers but still only 2-3 rows of lines.Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
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Do you roll up your LEI... without kneeling down?
Only when it's dry and almost always on grass somewhere.Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
What were you flying 10 years ago?
I had a quiver of Boom kites. They were the kite arm of Nova paragliders. They did almost everything bow kites did 5 years before bow kites came along. I also had a few Flysurfers and Arcs and some other random kites.Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
What's filtered from the Ozone PG to their kites?
Not sure. The Quantum has plastic rods. They talk about super-secret paraglider technology. That would be the shark nose and possibly rear set A-lines (huge improvement in stability at low angles of attack). Plastic rods are revolutionary. They are stronger and lighter than mylar and gives all sorts of options for shaping the nose. The only thing that was hard about repairing foils was sewing around the leading edge and getting all the mylar panels to line up.
Select to expand quotePlummet said..
...More robust. They last a lot longer than a lei and wont as easily be damaged as they fold around stuff.
...
I agree with most of what you say.
But, we did porosity tests on foils and they were reading less than 20 seconds after 100 hours of use. New fabric is well over 400 seconds. They would be very stall prone and the fabric would absorb water if the kite got wet.
My record is 160 hours with a 2007 model Switchblade. It looked very faded but worked ok when I sold it. My current kites have 145 hours each and look and perform like new ones. The only repair I have done is one tiny, cosmetic stick on patch.
You cannot underestimate the amount of wear and tear you get dragging the canopy around on the sand. The inflated struts keep the canopy well clear of the sand for most of the life of the kite.
I did have a GK Sonic in 2006 and that was a fantastic kite but structurally poorly designed. It died completely after 100 hours and too many repairs.
Ozone still put burst valves in their foils. They don't work in a high speed crash. I lost count of the number of times I sewed up shredded kites.
Talk about antiques :o I thought you might have been thinking Speed2's or Psycho3's... even those are different beasts to the Unity, Speed3/4 and Psycho4, and they're only a generation back!
The rigid-LE thing? The Speed4 8 and 10m has that, but interestingly the bigger sizes aren't going to have them. And also unlike the 8 and 10, the 12+ is sticking with ABC and Z bridle rows, IIRC. Advantage of that being the control you get over the profile of the kite... despite how intimidating they all look, the bridle system isn't that complicated - that's as bad an argument as looking at a regular kite and going "OMG there's only 4 strings keeping it in the air!"
I bet the lessons learned from both sides of the company (eg. Skywalk<-->Flysurfer) are valuable, but the products aren't closely enough related in function to be able to just hand over technology.
What are the wind ranges for paragliders?
I'd love to see someone fly a PG on a bar and lines I know people have flown Speeds on harness and handles, like a PG...
Porosity doesn't really matter with a RAM air though does it :) and the material floats, even when it's completely empty of air.
If it really bugs you, you can recoat it with... um, stuff :o can't remember what it's called, but you can wash it in.
Wear on the beach... yes, that's a problem. Sliding it around launching/landing must generate as much wear as... self-launching a tube
Seem to remember the hard-core guys on foil zone have several hundred hours on their kites... so it can't be that much of an issue!
Ive only been kiting for 4 years but have tried out quite a few kites to see what it is I like.
I started on a slingshot fuel 17m (!! - what was I thinking!!) and now flying F-one Bandits and a Griffin Argo (light wind) - but along the way also tried out a PL foil 15m for light wind stuff- the auto zenith thing just did my head in !! It worked well but I was paranoid of dropping it in the drink but Im so used to an LEI falling towards the water when you let go of the bar ( or kind of loose track of the kite!) but the foil did the other thing - kind of weird!!
I also launch sometimes in a sketchy spot and to get the PL to inflate enough (without forced air) for a non scary launch was not nice.
A question I have is why has PL kites gone now to a LEI ?? marketing or a recognition of the foil limitations??
Good discussion - will keep watching !! Im amazed by the flysurfer youtube clips of kiting in glassy water conditions - cant do that with a LEI!!!!!
I was one of the hard core guys on foilzone. :-)
I had a Speed 2.
Porosity matters hugely. A porous kite won't fly.
You can spray Nikwax on a kite. It doesn't work for long.
I have flown paragliders on kite lines. It's fun to go to the kite park with the buggy guys and their 5m kites and roll out 26m of wing. It handled like a truck. A more modern paraglider would handle much better but I'm not about to sacrifice my gliders by dragging them around the ground.
The wear on an inflatable is limited to the Dacron leading edge. Good technique can eliminate that.
I did a fair number of self rescues with foils. They work fine. Similar techniques to inflatables but not as comfortable to lie in.
I did have the speed system break once and rode back to the beach with just the A's and the brake lines. That was fun. I even stayed upwind.
Paragliders don't really have wind ranges. In general the less wind the better. I have a mini-wing and I can fly it in 15 knots to 25 knots but that's kind of insane. You can get paramotor wings with reflex foils that have a massive speed range 30-80kph. Some guys fly them in wind but they're not really meant for that.
Arcs aren't know for their bottom end... launching can be a hassle too. Once they're up though...!
I'm sure limitations have something to do with it - sales limitations, for one but they've released 2 new arcs and some FB and depower FBs this past year. Niche markets are still markets... I'd love to try a Charger2...
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
I was one of the hard core guys on foilzone. :-)
I had a Speed 2.
Porosity matters hugely. A porous kite won't fly.
You can spray Nikwax on a kite. It doesn't work for long.
I have flown paragliders on kite lines. It's fun to go to the kite park with the buggy guys and their 5m kites and roll out 26m of wing. It handled like a truck. A more modern paraglider would handle much better but I'm not about to sacrifice my gliders by dragging them around the ground.
The wear on an inflatable is limited to the Dacron leading edge. Good technique can eliminate that.
I did a fair number of self rescues with foils. They work fine. Similar techniques to inflatables but not as comfortable to lie in.
I did have the speed system break once and rode back to the beach with just the A's and the brake lines. That was fun. I even stayed upwind.
Paragliders don't really have wind ranges. In general the less wind the better. I have a mini-wing and I can fly it in 15 knots to 25 knots but that's kind of insane. You can get paramotor wings with reflex foils that have a massive speed range 30-80kph. Some guys fly them in wind but they're not really meant for that.
Shame on you for being bridle-phobic then
Nikwax, that's it. Doesn't last, eh? Due to wear on the ground or just the nature of the product?
I've had a Speed 1 17m and Speed 2 19m then got a Speed3 21. The 21 is a leap ahead; much more stable, much better wind range. Yeah, it's slow as a truck but it's stable and keeps me riding when the "normal" weight riders are walking. Riding AND having fun... I learned my rotation and started on the kite loop tricks with the 21
We lost some bottom end with the Triple Depower on the S3 over the S2, but gained so much more.
Once the LE weakens, you risk LE bladder explosions... I really wish there weren't so many tards at our beach so I could trust them to launch me. Kinda hard to say "Yes I want a launch but not from you" 
Thicker material on the TE is one thing I hope FSer learns from their Cronix
So PGs are more like fixed bridle kites?
Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
I think you are too, Plummet... and hopefully you're a lot less sensitive to comments on your posts and won't go all full-sarcastic on us
You think your S3 15 has less depower than other kites that size/power? I think one of the best things about the Speed3s is their wind range...
That is of course assuming that the "foils" you're talking about is ONLY Flysurfers. Didn't you have some arcs too?
My statements a generalisation about all foils and all leis. I lei, close cell depower foil, open cell depower foil, fixed bridle open cell foil. Very occasionally I fly an arc. But not that often the annoying solo launch and need to pre-inflate pisses me off.
Yes the speed 3 15m has less depower at the bar. not less depower overall. but less at the bar. once powered up they way carry more entrained power. its harder to shut the power off than an lei which usually is just let bar out.
Your right Gorgo. Foils do not like getting wet. That is an another advantage of leis. Fly them in the rain get them wet. they don't care.
But you are wrong regarding longevity of lie's over foils. Foils firmly kick leis buts for longevity. When I got my speed 3 it was second has and well used. At a guess at least 100 hours. The bar and lines completely shagged. I have put a good 200 hours on the kite. To my amaisement the canopy still looks reasonable. Not one pin whole or tear. It still has a lot of miles left in it too.
Select to expand quoteLambie said..
A question I have is why has PL kites gone now to a LEI ?? marketing or a recognition of the foil limitations??
The combo of faster turning, better depower, self rescue options and safer/easier solo launch land options make the inflatables the best option for most water situations.
they are certainly superior when its windy.
On land their advantage is reduced and to be honest they can be a more of a pain in the arse for land use. But you can use them on the land. Where using a open cell depower foil on the water is foolhardy.
So if you are a man like myself that kitesurfs, kitebuggies and landboards, I have the big foil for light wind then step into leis for high wind.
Ive never flown a foil but for the wear and tear issue, I'm thinking you don't leave foils flapping around sitting on the beach before, after and in between sessions like you do with LEI's?
