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Forums > Kitesurfing General

short lines

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Created by Sasha > 9 months ago, 29 Sep 2009
Sasha
VIC, 103 posts
29 Sep 2009 9:31AM
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Hi there.
Please, anyone has an experience with short lines ( 15-17m)?
What does it actually do to the kite?
Affecting power,speed,responsivenes??
Thanks.

SaveTheWhales
WA, 1877 posts
29 Sep 2009 8:06AM
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Hey Sasha

The shorter lines are good if you dont have long arms never too early for a laugh

They loose a little off the bottom end and it turns faster just the same as if you were changing from 25's to 20's - if used in the right wind range a faster turning kite will generate its own power, minimising bottom end effect...

Good on smaller kite sizes but not so flash in holding shape in the larger.

Cheers

Sasha
VIC, 103 posts
29 Sep 2009 10:27AM
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Thanks Clay.
Just trying to save few $ by not buying new set of lines
Do you think it will work with 6 m kite (waves)?
Thanks.

dave......
WA, 2119 posts
29 Sep 2009 8:44AM
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15-17 is probably too short, good to use when teaching to get basic kite control, but not much else. Remember the kite flies in an arc so cutting off 1m is actually 3m of diameter in a full kiteloop. Cutting off 2m on my slingshot lines made the kites (fuels) very different beasts. With regard to bottom end I've found C kites to be less affected than bows/hybrids as they are more park and ride. Tried 20m lines once on a rebel and it made the kite unflyable.

SaveTheWhales
WA, 1877 posts
29 Sep 2009 10:05AM
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Hey Sasha

Im guessing that your lines are worn above the bar at the twisty point

Option A.
keep lines as long as possible 17 will do nicely since you are used to a fast turning 6m anyway... As long as you use it in the right wind range it will be lots of fun & have things in common with a crazed mosquito snorting red bull

Option B.
I sent you a pm with a link to the best bargain new line 'sets' under $90 anywhere in the world I sure - keep it to yourself or we'll have to pay top dollar again

sir ROWDY
WA, 5353 posts
29 Sep 2009 10:22AM
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Anything under 23m for most people is going to be a struggle.
Your kite turns alot quicker, has alot less time before it hits the water, has alot less power, can luff alot easier, and flys foward and out of the wind again alot faster.
They make gusty wind seem even gustier.
About all they are good for is gnarly kiteloops.

I've used down to 7m before and it pretty much looks and feels like your just holding the wingtips. You need about 30 - 35 knots to get moving though ahaha.

Maybe if you need to cut down your lines you can still do that and then get some 5-7m extensions from somewhere cheap to add ontop, that is always a good option.

simonmm
QLD, 200 posts
29 Sep 2009 1:31PM
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Short lines will have no appreciable affect on the turning speed of the kite or on the speed at which the kite flies through the window. The window will however be much smaller depending on the length of the lines and the kite will have a propensity to fly further forwards in the window. It can be difficult to get going with much shorter lines (ie sub 15m), as sining the kite produces less power than with longer lines. However once you get some board speed going it is not a whole lot different than with longer lines except you tend to point a bit further upwind. Kite loops tend to be a lot more radical/brutal on short lines as well. Quite a few people will ride 20m lines in the surf these days and personally I reckon that 15 or 17s aren't bad either if you like the small window for being able to flick the kite around without getting dragged down the line too far. I can't see too many advantage for freestyle. Some say that shorter lines enable you to fly a larger kite than you would otherwise in higher wind and I would also find this debatable. Kites can be quite squirrely in high winds on shorter lines and a looping kite on short lines can produce real painful surprises in strong wind.

mattyjee
WA, 575 posts
29 Sep 2009 11:39AM
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dave...... said...

cutting off 1m is actually 3m of diameter.


Maths fail...

sir ROWDY
WA, 5353 posts
29 Sep 2009 11:52AM
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simonmm said...

Short lines will have no appreciable affect on the turning speed of the kite or on the speed at which the kite flies through the window. The window will however be much smaller depending on the length of the lines and the kite will have a propensity to fly further forwards in the window. It can be difficult to get going with much shorter lines (ie sub 15m), as sining the kite produces less power than with longer lines. However once you get some board speed going it is not a whole lot different than with longer lines except you tend to point a bit further upwind. Kite loops tend to be a lot more radical/brutal on short lines as well. Quite a few people will ride 20m lines in the surf these days and personally I reckon that 15 or 17s aren't bad either if you like the small window for being able to flick the kite around without getting dragged down the line too far. I can't see too many advantage for freestyle. Some say that shorter lines enable you to fly a larger kite than you would otherwise in higher wind and I would also find this debatable. Kites can be quite squirrely in high winds on shorter lines and a looping kite on short lines can produce real painful surprises in strong wind.



It will turn quicker because less line = less drag = less slack to pull in = faster response = quicker turning kite.

It will fly through the window quicker because 4 or 5 times 7m lengths of line is actually alot of extra drag and will be noticable.
Why do you think it fly's further forward in the window on shorter lines...
Also why do you think it goes up wind better...
Because it has less drag to fly faster through the window/ further forward into the wind.

You will be able to fly a kite size or 2 bigger because once again it can fly further forward in the window effectivley catching less of the wind than what it would if it was on longer lines sitting deeper in the window. It can be very on off kinda kiting if the wind is gusty though.

By the sounds of things I'm not sure whether you have actually tried short lines before or maybe you did it one time and forgot what it was like.


simonmm
QLD, 200 posts
29 Sep 2009 3:03PM
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sir ROWDY said...

simonmm said...

Short lines will have no appreciable affect on the turning speed of the kite or on the speed at which the kite flies through the window. The window will however be much smaller depending on the length of the lines and the kite will have a propensity to fly further forwards in the window. It can be difficult to get going with much shorter lines (ie sub 15m), as sining the kite produces less power than with longer lines. However once you get some board speed going it is not a whole lot different than with longer lines except you tend to point a bit further upwind. Kite loops tend to be a lot more radical/brutal on short lines as well. Quite a few people will ride 20m lines in the surf these days and personally I reckon that 15 or 17s aren't bad either if you like the small window for being able to flick the kite around without getting dragged down the line too far. I can't see too many advantage for freestyle. Some say that shorter lines enable you to fly a larger kite than you would otherwise in higher wind and I would also find this debatable. Kites can be quite squirrely in high winds on shorter lines and a looping kite on short lines can produce real painful surprises in strong wind.



It will turn quicker because less line = less drag = less slack to pull in = faster response = quicker turning kite.

It will fly through the window quicker because 4 or 5 times 7m lengths of line is actually alot of extra drag and will be noticable.
Why do you think it fly's further forward in the window on shorter lines...
Also why do you think it goes up wind better...
Because it has less drag to fly faster through the window/ further forward into the wind.

You will be able to fly a kite size or 2 bigger because once again it can fly further forward in the window effectivley catching less of the wind than what it would if it was on longer lines sitting deeper in the window. It can be very on off kinda kiting if the wind is gusty though.

By the sounds of things I'm not sure whether you have actually tried short lines before or maybe you did it one time and forgot what it was like.





Your theories are pretty funny. I am sure you believe you are right and are not much interested in hearing anything that might be different from your preconcieved ideas, but for the benefit of other out there asking the question:

1. The speed at which a kite turns is dictated by a differential in wing pressure between either side of the canopy. Line length will not have an appreciable effect. It is quite common for people to confuse the feel of flying with shorter lines to that of flying a faster turning kite.

2. You do the math, but a 0.28cm squared increase in surface area will not have a profound effect on the flying speed of the kite. The effect of having a much smaller window to work with would be much more noticable that a miniscule increase in the cross section of the kite.

3. The the effect of the kite flying marginally further forwards will have minimal distinction compared to pulling in more depower on a kite on longer lines. Sure you may get by on a size larger with short lines, but my point is that when things go wrong mistakes will be equally unforgiving with a kite on either long or short lines. The larger power stroke generated by a kite on longer lines I think is fairly offset by the twitchy nature of a kite with short lines in strong wind.

I have spent a lot of time flying with short lines and just think that in general it is easy to confuse the very significant impact of having a smaller window with the relatively small increases in flying or turning speed.

Ben De Jonge
WA, 819 posts
29 Sep 2009 1:09PM
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I don't like doing it, but I have to agree with Rowdy on the turning speed.

My Flexi's have 20m + 5m extensions, and there is NO DOUBT that my 12.5 ION2 turns much faster on the 20m lines than it does on the 25s.

NO DOUBT.

sir ROWDY
WA, 5353 posts
29 Sep 2009 1:31PM
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Ok so in theory your kite is not actually able "turn" any quicker, but it will react better/quicker to your inputs which will make it seem like it turns faster with less input than on long lines.
Less slack to pull in is going to make it quicker to react to your inputs = faster turning kite.

Lines have more drag than you are making out, some more than others.
They actually vibrate in flight giving a bigger surface area than the actual diameter of a line thus giving more drag.

I flew kites on short lines in the days where kites didn't have 1000% depower, im talking about riding a size or 2 smaller compared to the same model C kite on longer lines.

If you think it makes no difference i will be happy to let you ride an 8m in 35knots on 40m lines while i ride the same 8m on 15m lines, lets just see what happens.

simonmm
QLD, 200 posts
29 Sep 2009 3:45PM
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sir ROWDY said...


They actually vibrate in flight giving a bigger surface area than the actual diameter of a line thus giving more drag.



You should be Sir Idiot not sir Rowdy. Unless your flying lines have some type of multidimensional capabilities that enable them to avoid some of the basic laws of physics, they can only actually be in the one place at the one time. They can vibrate as fast as you like but they will still always have the same cross section. Not sure if you made it to year 10 or 12 maths, but it all becomes a lot clearer then.

sir ROWDY
WA, 5353 posts
29 Sep 2009 2:00PM
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So your telling me drag from side to side as well as forward drag is only going to drag the same amount as if you just had forward drag?... I actually don't know for sure but I find that hard to believe.
Surely there's a reason they stop things from vibrating/ flapping in the wind when they can on sail boats etc... Im sure a flapping spinnaker has alot more drag than a tight one. Same goes with lines.

I guess your right about what i said... The line cant get any bigger but it can increase in drag which is proportionately the same as having a line with a bigger surface area that is not vibrating. That is what I meant. Your calculations didn't take this into account, not to mention the lines will vibrate further side to side as they get longer.

p.s. Nice, already resorted to getting personal bwahaha. You guys just cant help yourself

whatthe
WA, 186 posts
29 Sep 2009 2:20PM
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I think both simon and rowdy are right on this one.
Only the aerodynamics of the kite will control how fast the kite actually rotates. But shorter lines will make the user input more effective, just like a bigger bar does. The turn will be initiated more quickly with shorter lines, but the rotational speed will be the same.

There will probably be two types of drag on the lines: 1) frictional which is directly related to surface area and 2) pressure drag which will be dominated by eddies coming off the lines. Rowdy might be right in that a vibrating string causes more eddies to be shed (creating more drag), but this is getting into a pretty complex aerodynamics.
This will get pretty nerdy fast

bennie
ACT, 1258 posts
29 Sep 2009 4:35PM
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this is getting interesting. wheres my popcorn at?
I changed my lines on my 12msb3 from 25 to 20m because I wanted a more responsive faster turning kite. I have been impressed with the results. It is still the same stable/forgiving kite, but is now more fun to whip around.It is definatly a faster reacting kite now. If there is a difference in bottom end I haven't noticed it. I don't know that I would do this on a smaller kite because <9m kites already turn fast enough for my liking.

dogbones
TAS, 23 posts
29 Sep 2009 8:49PM
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I also ride flexifoils ,ion 2s and find 20 metre lines
the way to go.

Brien
NSW, 172 posts
29 Sep 2009 11:29PM
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I think 20m is the perfect length for the surf. It makes the window a better size for when you have to turn the kite in more onshore directions. It is also more practical for setting up on smaller beaches etc and it creates more room in the air at crowded breaks.

I agree that theoretically a string/rope creates drag, but when you compare the amount of drag that the lines create to the amount of force delivered by the kite then the drag component of the lines becomes negligible. I use the thick SS kite lines on the front and rear of my bar and it makes no noticeable difference to the way the kite flys.

sir ROWDY
WA, 5353 posts
29 Sep 2009 10:35PM
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Fly a trainer on really thick line (like old Q line) then fly it on the super thin lines it comes with and tell me it makes no difference.
I can deffinetly feel the difference between thicker stretchier lines when compared to newer thin pre stretched stuff. I kinda prefer the thicker stretchier because it slows your kite down a bit.

Charl dv
WA, 2485 posts
30 Sep 2009 12:19AM
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mattyjee said...

dave...... said...

cutting off 1m is actually 3m of diameter.


Maths fail...



Greeen thumbs

Charl dv
WA, 2485 posts
30 Sep 2009 11:17AM
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umm im just going to come add my opinion that i have n stuff..

im going to say that lines dont make the the kite itself have faster turning BUT the amount of input required on shorter lines compared to the amount of imput required on longer lines to a) take up the slack in lines and b) pull in on wingtip to cause kite to turn is signifcantly less. THEREFORE when lets say you have 24m lines and 17m lines, both the same kites, both pilots having the kites sheeted exactly the same and both pulling an equal amount on one side of the bar to initiate a turn, the 17m lines will start turning earlier (as pressure starts being applied the 17 will start turning first due to less slack needing to be taken up) and turn in a sharper angle (more pressure on kite wing due to less slack).

then the drag coefficient of the lines also make a large difference, eg go grab a fuel or generator, fly it in 4 lines (especially generator) then fly it on 5 lines and notice how much slower the kite flies through the window. same applies to line lengths and pig tail attachment points, move the front lines further back on wing tip kite sits deeper and shoots forward less.

THEN on top of this there is a strong positive correlation between wind speed and amount of drag, as wind speed increases the amount of drag caused by lines increases.

ON TOP OF THAT im just taking a poke in the dark here im not sure if anything i said is credible im just using what ive learnt in physics and some general knowledge and taking a guess.

Simonmm im not to sure why u like getting so excited and what not and having to get so personal about a topic that is as simple as line lengths, one person disagrees with your tiny little forum opinion and you start throwing names like idiot around n trying to cut them down....

Self esteem issues no?

just incase you haven't reaslised this is an internet forum, its a open public discussion page, its not personal, dont get too excited and think someone hates you because they disagree with you...

simonmm
QLD, 200 posts
30 Sep 2009 6:07PM
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Charl dv said...

umm im just going to come add my opinion that i have n stuff..

im going to say that lines dont make the the kite itself have faster turning BUT the amount of input required on shorter lines compared to the amount of imput required on longer lines to a) take up the slack in lines and b) pull in on wingtip to cause kite to turn is signifcantly less. THEREFORE when lets say you have 24m lines and 17m lines, both the same kites, both pilots having the kites sheeted exactly the same and both pulling an equal amount on one side of the bar to initiate a turn, the 17m lines will start turning earlier (as pressure starts being applied the 17 will start turning first due to less slack needing to be taken up) and turn in a sharper angle (more pressure on kite wing due to less slack).

then the drag coefficient of the lines also make a large difference, eg go grab a fuel or generator, fly it in 4 lines (especially generator) then fly it on 5 lines and notice how much slower the kite flies through the window. same applies to line lengths and pig tail attachment points, move the front lines further back on wing tip kite sits deeper and shoots forward less.

THEN on top of this there is a strong positive correlation between wind speed and amount of drag, as wind speed increases the amount of drag caused by lines increases.

ON TOP OF THAT im just taking a poke in the dark here im not sure if anything i said is credible im just using what ive learnt in physics and some general knowledge and taking a guess.

Simonmm im not to sure why u like getting so excited and what not and having to get so personal about a topic that is as simple as line lengths, one person disagrees with your tiny little forum opinion and you start throwing names like idiot around n trying to cut them down....

Self esteem issues no?

just incase you haven't reaslised this is an internet forum, its a open public discussion page, its not personal, dont get too excited and think someone hates you because they disagree with you...


No need to get so touchy. I think if you had a look at the thread I offered a differing opinion from Rowdy and got a pile back that included a poke about never having tried short lines. If you look at the real world you will find that an internet forum is generally a vehicle for incoherent degenerating conversations that move to pointless accusations then eventually conclude with everyone hugging and making up. Who am I to go against the natural order of things. On a lighter note, things like "They actually vibrate in flight giving a bigger surface area than the actual diameter of a line thus giving more drag." is just plain funny and hard to not see the lighter side of.

Anyhow, at the end of the day all I am trying to point out is that 0.28cm square of kite line surface area is pretty insignificant compared to the total profile of the kite and is unlikely to make a big difference to the flying characteristics. I just think that it is easy to confuse the feel of a smaller window with the feel of the reduced drag from shorter lines. As a side note, if you think that a modest amount of kite line will add noticable drag, how is it that bridled kites like the Flysurfer Speed manage to still sit very far forwards in the window?

GalahOnTheBay
NSW, 4188 posts
30 Sep 2009 8:30PM
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As someone else said all this theory is great, but why not just cut 'em down (to keep them as long as possible) and see how you go?

Charl dv
WA, 2485 posts
30 Sep 2009 6:54PM
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^^ what? thats just too easy and not nearly as much fun

getfunky
WA, 4485 posts
1 Oct 2009 3:38PM
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How long is a piece of string?

Never tried shortening lines but have had standard set ups in 23 mtrs and 25 mtrs. My current rig has the optional 20+5 add-ons. I'd be keen to try the 20m set up in the surf this year but like someone said I find my 9m moves fast enough for me anyhow?

I'd rather just get out there than fiddle, compare, fiddle - think of all the sets you have missed in that time?



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"short lines" started by Sasha