Hi there.
Please, anyone has an experience with short lines ( 15-17m)?
What does it actually do to the kite?
Affecting power,speed,responsivenes??
Thanks.
Hey Sasha
The shorter lines are good if you dont have long arms never too early for a laugh
They loose a little off the bottom end and it turns faster just the same as if you were changing from 25's to 20's - if used in the right wind range a faster turning kite will generate its own power, minimising bottom end effect...
Good on smaller kite sizes but not so flash in holding shape in the larger.
Cheers
Thanks Clay.
Just trying to save few $ by not buying new set of lines
Do you think it will work with 6 m kite (waves)?
Thanks.
15-17 is probably too short, good to use when teaching to get basic kite control, but not much else. Remember the kite flies in an arc so cutting off 1m is actually 3m of diameter in a full kiteloop. Cutting off 2m on my slingshot lines made the kites (fuels) very different beasts. With regard to bottom end I've found C kites to be less affected than bows/hybrids as they are more park and ride. Tried 20m lines once on a rebel and it made the kite unflyable.
Hey Sasha
Im guessing that your lines are worn above the bar at the twisty point
Option A.
keep lines as long as possible 17 will do nicely since you are used to a fast turning 6m anyway... As long as you use it in the right wind range it will be lots of fun & have things in common with a crazed mosquito snorting red bull
Option B.
I sent you a pm with a link to the best bargain new line 'sets' under $90 anywhere in the world I sure - keep it to yourself or we'll have to pay top dollar again
Anything under 23m for most people is going to be a struggle.
Your kite turns alot quicker, has alot less time before it hits the water, has alot less power, can luff alot easier, and flys foward and out of the wind again alot faster.
They make gusty wind seem even gustier.
About all they are good for is gnarly kiteloops.
I've used down to 7m before and it pretty much looks and feels like your just holding the wingtips. You need about 30 - 35 knots to get moving though ahaha.
Maybe if you need to cut down your lines you can still do that and then get some 5-7m extensions from somewhere cheap to add ontop, that is always a good option.
Short lines will have no appreciable affect on the turning speed of the kite or on the speed at which the kite flies through the window. The window will however be much smaller depending on the length of the lines and the kite will have a propensity to fly further forwards in the window. It can be difficult to get going with much shorter lines (ie sub 15m), as sining the kite produces less power than with longer lines. However once you get some board speed going it is not a whole lot different than with longer lines except you tend to point a bit further upwind. Kite loops tend to be a lot more radical/brutal on short lines as well. Quite a few people will ride 20m lines in the surf these days and personally I reckon that 15 or 17s aren't bad either if you like the small window for being able to flick the kite around without getting dragged down the line too far. I can't see too many advantage for freestyle. Some say that shorter lines enable you to fly a larger kite than you would otherwise in higher wind and I would also find this debatable. Kites can be quite squirrely in high winds on shorter lines and a looping kite on short lines can produce real painful surprises in strong wind.
I don't like doing it, but I have to agree with Rowdy on the turning speed.
My Flexi's have 20m + 5m extensions, and there is NO DOUBT that my 12.5 ION2 turns much faster on the 20m lines than it does on the 25s.
NO DOUBT.
Ok so in theory your kite is not actually able "turn" any quicker, but it will react better/quicker to your inputs which will make it seem like it turns faster with less input than on long lines.
Less slack to pull in is going to make it quicker to react to your inputs = faster turning kite.
Lines have more drag than you are making out, some more than others.
They actually vibrate in flight giving a bigger surface area than the actual diameter of a line thus giving more drag.
I flew kites on short lines in the days where kites didn't have 1000% depower, im talking about riding a size or 2 smaller compared to the same model C kite on longer lines.
If you think it makes no difference i will be happy to let you ride an 8m in 35knots on 40m lines while i ride the same 8m on 15m lines, lets just see what happens.
So your telling me drag from side to side as well as forward drag is only going to drag the same amount as if you just had forward drag?... I actually don't know for sure but I find that hard to believe.
Surely there's a reason they stop things from vibrating/ flapping in the wind when they can on sail boats etc... Im sure a flapping spinnaker has alot more drag than a tight one. Same goes with lines.
I guess your right about what i said... The line cant get any bigger but it can increase in drag which is proportionately the same as having a line with a bigger surface area that is not vibrating. That is what I meant. Your calculations didn't take this into account, not to mention the lines will vibrate further side to side as they get longer.
p.s. Nice, already resorted to getting personal bwahaha. You guys just cant help yourself
I think both simon and rowdy are right on this one.
Only the aerodynamics of the kite will control how fast the kite actually rotates. But shorter lines will make the user input more effective, just like a bigger bar does. The turn will be initiated more quickly with shorter lines, but the rotational speed will be the same.
There will probably be two types of drag on the lines: 1) frictional which is directly related to surface area and 2) pressure drag which will be dominated by eddies coming off the lines. Rowdy might be right in that a vibrating string causes more eddies to be shed (creating more drag), but this is getting into a pretty complex aerodynamics.
This will get pretty nerdy fast
this is getting interesting. wheres my popcorn at?
I changed my lines on my 12msb3 from 25 to 20m because I wanted a more responsive faster turning kite. I have been impressed with the results. It is still the same stable/forgiving kite, but is now more fun to whip around.It is definatly a faster reacting kite now. If there is a difference in bottom end I haven't noticed it. I don't know that I would do this on a smaller kite because <9m kites already turn fast enough for my liking.
I think 20m is the perfect length for the surf. It makes the window a better size for when you have to turn the kite in more onshore directions. It is also more practical for setting up on smaller beaches etc and it creates more room in the air at crowded breaks.
I agree that theoretically a string/rope creates drag, but when you compare the amount of drag that the lines create to the amount of force delivered by the kite then the drag component of the lines becomes negligible. I use the thick SS kite lines on the front and rear of my bar and it makes no noticeable difference to the way the kite flys.
Fly a trainer on really thick line (like old Q line) then fly it on the super thin lines it comes with and tell me it makes no difference.
I can deffinetly feel the difference between thicker stretchier lines when compared to newer thin pre stretched stuff. I kinda prefer the thicker stretchier because it slows your kite down a bit.
umm im just going to come add my opinion that i have n stuff..
im going to say that lines dont make the the kite itself have faster turning BUT the amount of input required on shorter lines compared to the amount of imput required on longer lines to a) take up the slack in lines and b) pull in on wingtip to cause kite to turn is signifcantly less. THEREFORE when lets say you have 24m lines and 17m lines, both the same kites, both pilots having the kites sheeted exactly the same and both pulling an equal amount on one side of the bar to initiate a turn, the 17m lines will start turning earlier (as pressure starts being applied the 17 will start turning first due to less slack needing to be taken up) and turn in a sharper angle (more pressure on kite wing due to less slack).
then the drag coefficient of the lines also make a large difference, eg go grab a fuel or generator, fly it in 4 lines (especially generator) then fly it on 5 lines and notice how much slower the kite flies through the window. same applies to line lengths and pig tail attachment points, move the front lines further back on wing tip kite sits deeper and shoots forward less.
THEN on top of this there is a strong positive correlation between wind speed and amount of drag, as wind speed increases the amount of drag caused by lines increases.
ON TOP OF THAT im just taking a poke in the dark here im not sure if anything i said is credible im just using what ive learnt in physics and some general knowledge and taking a guess.
Simonmm im not to sure why u like getting so excited and what not and having to get so personal about a topic that is as simple as line lengths, one person disagrees with your tiny little forum opinion and you start throwing names like idiot around n trying to cut them down....
Self esteem issues no?
just incase you haven't reaslised this is an internet forum, its a open public discussion page, its not personal, dont get too excited and think someone hates you because they disagree with you...
As someone else said all this theory is great, but why not just cut 'em down (to keep them as long as possible) and see how you go?
How long is a piece of string?
Never tried shortening lines but have had standard set ups in 23 mtrs and 25 mtrs. My current rig has the optional 20+5 add-ons. I'd be keen to try the 20m set up in the surf this year but like someone said I find my 9m moves fast enough for me anyhow?
I'd rather just get out there than fiddle, compare, fiddle - think of all the sets you have missed in that time?