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Forums > Kitesurfing General

virtual 5th line.... what do you think ?

Reply
Created by sergi > 9 months ago, 10 Jun 2011
sergi
16 posts
10 Jun 2011 2:53AM
Thumbs Up

hi there..
as you see in the sketch, in stead of connect the standart safety line to one of the front lines, ( that makes the kite flag, but once in the water is impossible to refly it, plus more than two hours trying to take all the knots and tangles away from the bar...)
the point is to connect the safety line to the ring that holds both front lines... with almost 4 meters length, that is the distance that will run away when the quick release is launched....

theoricaly, the kite will flag and perform as the best kahoona do or the cabrinha IDS system...holding the kite, with no power, lying on his back, from both from lines...



when you let go the bar with the stopper ball on top, the kite falls in one side of the window, but stills pulling... that´s one meter away from the bar..


but I´m talking about the new point of attachment, the front lines joint ring, is 3, 75 meters away from the bar.... that will kill the power totally.. no?
look to the best red line bar .... the point is two meters away from the bar..


also the airush bar..


my kite has new rostan pulleys in the front lines, that will help too



please, let me know ....I´m all ears !
thanks, mates !!!!

radman4
678 posts
10 Jun 2011 5:52AM
Thumbs Up

Yes it will work fine ,same system as my griffin bar,just run the override line to both front lines to flag both at the same time ,Griffin bar comes with two attachment points so you can choose single or both line flagout,when i was using chargers in the kiteschool i used the griff bars with the kites, and fly my new naish kites on the same setup.Single line flagout is a thing of the past and can sometimes get you in more crap than your already in.

radman4
678 posts
10 Jun 2011 6:13AM
Thumbs Up

Also its a good idea to run a plastic sheath over the flag out line for the first meter or so to stop it from wearing with the bar travel,otherwise after a few months it can become freyed and i wouldnt count on it not breaking,you can achieve the same result by just hooking to your depower line on the Naish setup,if you punch out the depower pops out of the cleat and flags out the kite just the same.

sergi
16 posts
10 Jun 2011 6:59AM
Thumbs Up

Thanx randman 4...
So that means you are riding actually your new naish kites, with this configuration, connected to both front lines...
Did you ever push the Q.R..??? And kills the power?
100% flagging?
With a customized naish bar o another?
Thanx, mate

Rhys McClintock
NSW, 995 posts
10 Jun 2011 9:12AM
Thumbs Up

Just be careful - the Charger has a mini bridle setup which won't allow the kite to flip forwards on the bridle.

Check out the way the Cabrinha system works. They need to use 8 pulleys (yes, EIGHT) on the Switchblades in order for the kite to fully depower on the virtual 5th line (just over 3 meters up).. There's a lot of technical work that had to go into that bridle, and it's a shame because it's forced Cab to go down the pulley route - where as the other brands who use less pulleys are getting similar results, with a single front line safety that is actually quicker and safer to release.

It will work, but don't expect to see your kite sitting on its back in the water like a real 5th line would, or an IDS system would...

bennie
ACT, 1258 posts
10 Jun 2011 10:16AM
Thumbs Up

having a kite that will flag to both front lines is very safe. I had to self land my griffin argo in 30-35 knots a few weeks back. My normal self land method wasn't going to work in this wind, so I released the safety, the kite just sat there on its back waiting for me to walk up the lines and grab the leading edge.
The set ups on my older kites flagging to one line would never have worked that well in wind like this, sure that would have flagged out, but left a big birds nest to deal with.

Pala
WA, 43 posts
10 Jun 2011 9:52AM
Thumbs Up

Im pretty sure f-one uses this system as well

TurtleHunter
WA, 1675 posts
10 Jun 2011 10:01AM
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Like Rhys said you need a kite with a bridle designed for a mini 5th line for it to work properly. One thing that can go wrong is if a rear line is caught around a wing tip the kite will start looping with your only option being to ditch it or get someone to catch it. You could keep a loop on your flagging line where your front lines join as a worst case backup. Personally if you need more depower than you have on your chicken loop then you will more than likely end up doing a self rescue on any system.

radman4
678 posts
10 Jun 2011 10:25AM
Thumbs Up

sergi said...

Thanx randman 4...
So that means you are riding actually your new naish kites, with this configuration, connected to both front lines...
Did you ever push the Q.R..??? And kills the power?
100% flagging?
With a customized naish bar o another?
Thanx, mate


Basically hooking the system up to flag out both front lines works just like throwing the bar away and letting the kite drift out of the sky,90+ % of the time the kite will land on its tip sitting at the edge of the window or on its face ,with no tangles,then its simple to haul in the bar and reset and away you go,its works fine with the charger mini bridal,i've had students flag the kite out this way many times.
Yes i use the exact same system with my Parks,I run them on the Griffin bar cos i like the taper of the bar and also the Griffin bar had a 5m leader set that i think all kite manufacturers should adopt as it stops you wearing your lines out ,i tend to loop my kite for just about every direction change and was wearing through linesets every 3-4 months my latest bar is prob a year old now and the lines are still crispy.
Was out in 3m surf the other week and got absolutely barreled by a munting wave ,must of spun me over 3 times ,while i spun i got slack line and my chicken loop popped off ,the whole system worked like a dream,hauled in the loop hooked back in let the override line reel through and relaunched just before the next set came through,works a treat,in the same situ with a single line flagout i would of been stuffed prob dragged in with the birdsnest from hell.

AKSonline
WA, 925 posts
Site Sponsor
10 Jun 2011 11:55AM
Thumbs Up

Hi Guys,

BE VERY CAREFUL! Virtual 5th, dual front line flagging DOES NOT WORK on ALL kites.

DO NOT go retrofitting a virtual 5th line setup on ANY kite that didn't come with it in the first place unless you are 110% confident you know what you are doing. Some kites like Ozones will not depower fully when flagged to both front lines.

This is a critical message to people who are relatively new to the sport (<4 years). DO NOT go tampering with or modifying your safety systems without expert advice as this may have very real and dire consequences if set up wrong in extreme weather conditions.

Please be careful about information you post on this type of subject. There are lots of beginners and intermediates who read these forums and they may not have the experience or knowledge to modify equipment.

DM

PS. Sorry to be safety Sam, but this sh1t can lead to bad accidents.

Gorgo
VIC, 5039 posts
10 Jun 2011 2:57PM
Thumbs Up

If you want a 5th line safety system why don't you buy a kite with it already installed? That's going to be better than butchering an existing kite and ending up with a system that doesn't work properly.

It's very expensive doing the DIY bridle/safety thing. By the time you buy pieces of spectra and polyester thread and sew it up and mess it up several times you are half way to the cost of changing over to a new kite. A metre here, two metres there, 5-10m of kite line at $5 a metre.

I have spent hundreds of dollars at sail shops buying stuff and fiddling around in the past. It used to be fun and it was necessary because proper bars and quick releases had not been invented. Now it's just a box full of tangled bits of rope and webbing and a modified sewing machine sitting in a cupboard.

PS Unless you're riding unhooked and overpowered you might like to work on why you are throwing to the safety leash so much. It should really be a last resort thing, not something you do all the time.

Charl dv
WA, 2485 posts
10 Jun 2011 3:28PM
Thumbs Up

Rhys Porter said...

Just be careful - the Charger has a mini bridle setup which won't allow the kite to flip forwards on the bridle.

Check out the way the Cabrinha system works. They need to use 8 pulleys (yes, EIGHT) on the Switchblades in order for the kite to fully depower on the virtual 5th line (just over 3 meters up).. There's a lot of technical work that had to go into that bridle, and it's a shame because it's forced Cab to go down the pulley route - where as the other brands who use less pulleys are getting similar results, with a single front line safety that is actually quicker and safer to release.

It will work, but don't expect to see your kite sitting on its back in the water like a real 5th line would, or an IDS system would...

what he said ^^
if you look at the pic where the pulley is circled, look up further and you can see that 2nd v where the big v connects to it, in order for this system to be fully functional you need a pulley there so that the entire front system can vary in widths so when you release those points move closer together WRT the centre of the kite. without this the release system isn't very stable, look at the airush kites from around 09 onwards and the cab IDS as Rhys mentioned and you will see their bridle systems are different.

Charl dv
WA, 2485 posts
10 Jun 2011 3:33PM
Thumbs Up

radman4 said...

sergi said...

Thanx randman 4...
So that means you are riding actually your new naish kites, with this configuration, connected to both front lines...
Did you ever push the Q.R..??? And kills the power?
100% flagging?
With a customized naish bar o another?
Thanx, mate


Basically hooking the system up to flag out both front lines works just like throwing the bar away and letting the kite drift out of the sky,90+ % of the time the kite will land on its tip sitting at the edge of the window or on its face ,with no tangles,then its simple to haul in the bar and reset and away you go,its works fine with the charger mini bridal,i've had students flag the kite out this way many times.
Yes i use the exact same system with my Parks,I run them on the Griffin bar cos i like the taper of the bar and also the Griffin bar had a 5m leader set that i think all kite manufacturers should adopt as it stops you wearing your lines out ,i tend to loop my kite for just about every direction change and was wearing through linesets every 3-4 months my latest bar is prob a year old now and the lines are still crispy.
Was out in 3m surf the other week and got absolutely barreled by a munting wave ,must of spun me over 3 times ,while i spun i got slack line and my chicken loop popped off ,the whole system worked like a dream,hauled in the loop hooked back in let the override line reel through and relaunched just before the next set came through,works a treat,in the same situ with a single line flagout i would of been stuffed prob dragged in with the birdsnest from hell.



note that safety release system is nothing like a 5th line that you described, that sounds just like the 2:1 system best and slingy used where it only depowers 70 - 80% and will NOT work as a safety flag out if a line were ever to get tangled or snap etc.
a PROPER mini 5th completely kills the power and makes the kite crash either face down or belly up same as a one line flag system.

radman4
678 posts
10 Jun 2011 3:44PM
Thumbs Up

Sorry guys but on this kite it works ,the info given relates to this kite,use the system myself and its just a case of swapping where the existing line attaches,when the kite is fully flagged out the pulley movement is absolutely negligable,total movement is a couple of inches at the most,i think there's some confusion here between 5th line and just a simple override line flagout,anyone else reading shouldn't relate it to other kites that dont already have this style override system installed,the charger system is already in place, a very minor modification.

10 Jun 2011 10:33PM
Thumbs Up

Rhys Porter said...

Just be careful - the Charger has a mini bridle setup which won't allow the kite to flip forwards on the bridle.

Check out the way the Cabrinha system works. They need to use 8 pulleys (yes, EIGHT) on the Switchblades in order for the kite to fully depower on the virtual 5th line (just over 3 meters up).. There's a lot of technical work that had to go into that bridle, and it's a shame because it's forced Cab to go down the pulley route - where as the other brands who use less pulleys are getting similar results, with a single front line safety that is actually quicker and safer to release.

It will work, but don't expect to see your kite sitting on its back in the water like a real 5th line would, or an IDS system would...


Switchies and Crossbows use 4 pulleys, 2 per side and 2 stainless forged guides, 1 per side.
So called mini fifth does not work on all kites, be very careful, it may seem like it works in lighter winds, but may turn into a monster in strong winds, make sure you test in strong winds, and have big area downwind in case you need to let the kite go.

beefarmer
WA, 328 posts
10 Jun 2011 9:15PM
Thumbs Up

Whats the big advantages of the mini-5th system to a regular 5th line? seems very complicated to me, all this need for bridles and pulleys etc. when a simple regular 5th does the job fine.

Is it just that with the regular 5th line setup the 5th can wrap around the kite during a messy relaunch, but this wont happen with the min-5th? Or is there something else I'm missing?

holgs
WA, 298 posts
10 Jun 2011 10:16PM
Thumbs Up

My 2011 Ozone bar has a stopper ball that stops the bar from sliding all the way up when you flag to the single front line. This is unlike my 2010 Naish bar where the bar can slide all the way up to the bridle when flagged. But then the Ozone bar doesn't have the mono front line either. The front lines split straight after the trim strap.

I haven't flagged a kite on the Ozone bar but this setup might save some bird nests ?

Can a kite be relaunched after flagging on the Ozone bar ? Are there any down sides to having the Ozone system and the stopper ball ?
Is there an advantage to the Naish mono front line ?

djdojo
VIC, 1610 posts
11 Jun 2011 12:56AM
Thumbs Up

^^^^
Ozone system is simple and effective. The stopper ball keeps it neat and also reduces the extent to which the remaining three lines can drag on the bottom and snag or make birds nests.

This vid shows it very clearly on land, and same process applies in water.

AKSonline
WA, 925 posts
Site Sponsor
11 Jun 2011 12:27AM
Thumbs Up

Hi guys,

A simple question... Why is everyone so fixated on relaunching a kite after you have pinged the Quick release?

I have had to activate my QR on the chicken loop about half a dozen times in 11 years. I have never been concerned with relaunch after I have done so.

In emergency situations which lead to the need to activate the full flagging quick release, you are usually in a serious or even life threatening situation which on my part, has always ended in the obvious decision to self rescue back to the beach, not to get the kite back up in the air. That was usually the opposite of what I wanted.

The Ozone system can be relaunched after quick released, however, the chance of tangled lines is possible. It's purpose is to safely kill off the power under ANY condition. It's ability to be relaunched is not really considered at design stage although the ball on the front line does stop any additional unnecessary tangling.

The safest system is 5th line followed very closely, if not equal to a front line flagging 4 line.

Virtual 5ths work well provided the kite doesn't roll through it's bridle which can leave the rear lines bridle tangled around the wingtips, this prevents the virtual 5th from working. This doesn't happen all the time, but I have witnessed it happen several times in a season, so it's very possible.

There is no perfect system, just some safer than others, and lets face it, safety and dependability should be the primary if not only consideration when considering safety flagging systems.

Some manufacturers do not build in full flagging virtual 5th's, they just depower and dump most of the power. I don't think these are safe enough personally.

Again, if the kite has bridles and is not made to flag to a virtual 5th, don't rig one from a single front line flag system. Manufacturers don't just chuck kites out there with safety systems that "should be right", they build in the safest system to function as best as it can, by modifying a system to virtual 5th, you are ignoring the limitations of the bridle system. Do so at your own peril. Never modify someone elses system for them.

DM

radman4
678 posts
11 Jun 2011 6:13AM
Thumbs Up

Topic seems to be getting a bit off track,we arn't really talking about a fith line system,the pic above would be less confusing if the drawn kite part wasn't there at all ,its looking like theres a mod up at the top of the kite with an extra line,the override line just goes up to where the two front lines split,by moving it from the single line activating ring to the dual line ring your flagging both front lines at the same time so that the kite dosent spin out of control when flagged out,it works (on this kite) like you have just released with your safty hooked to the depower set with no bar stopper,the other alternative is just hook to the end of the depower line,on the naish theres a ring and this works just as well,and its better for unhooked as your bar stays closer,so no mod needed, probably why naish never gave the 3rd option any way as you already have the two safty options ,griffin have just gone a step further and given you the extra one
P.S. The single line flagout system works fine if your lucky enough to have your kite on the side of the window the kites gonna flag out to if its at the other side it usually ends in a tangle and a long swim.

holgs
WA, 298 posts
11 Jun 2011 9:32AM
Thumbs Up

AKSonline said...

Hi guys,

A simple question... Why is everyone so fixated on relaunching a kite after you have pinged the Quick release?

I have had to activate my QR on the chicken loop about half a dozen times in 11 years. I have never been concerned with relaunch after I have done so.

In emergency situations which lead to the need to activate the full flagging quick release, you are usually in a serious or even life threatening situation which on my part, has always ended in the obvious decision to self rescue back to the beach, not to get the kite back up in the air. That was usually the opposite of what I wanted.





Yes, true but a tangle free flag out system like a true 5th line can be useful in other situations like self landing in strong wind and people unhooking might have less need to ride suicide. It would still be nice to have a tangle free virtual 5th line.



rhinoman
QLD, 362 posts
11 Jun 2011 8:20PM
Thumbs Up

just buy a north
......d.u.m.b.o

sergi
16 posts
11 Jun 2011 11:39PM
Thumbs Up

Thanks for the advice, rhinoman but already had north and I did not like them..
And also, what d.u.m.b.o means?

sergi
16 posts
16 Jun 2011 2:58AM
Thumbs Up

maybe naish also considers this option... this pic comes from the user´s manual


radman4
678 posts
16 Jun 2011 5:29AM
Thumbs Up

Yep thats exactly what we discussed,would have been more obvious if they had of just included an extra attachment point like griffin do,dont know why they dont have it set that way as standard and have the single line flagout as the option,way safer.
Although this way of hookup takes the override line totally away so make sure you keep an eye on the trim line for any serious wear as if it snaps you and the kite will be in two different places.
This setup is the same as the previous griff bar before they added the override line.



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"virtual 5th line.... what do you think ?" started by sergi