Alrighty sooo when the new 2013 gear is released I'll be buying a couple kites.
So I'm currently riding a 2011 switchblade 11m, Im into wake style, crusing and race.
I've been kiting I think 8 months and my ability is upto learning mobes which I'll have down by next session.
My current switchblade is starting to slow me down as looping drops me hard no matter how hard or soft I go.
I learnt to kite on an old Vegas and its still my favourite kite.
So what I want to know is how the travel of the bar feels on the Vegas of 2011/2012.
I've demoed a 2012 Naish torch and 2011 fuel and 2011/2012 c4.
Torch bar feeling. I found the torch to feel exactly like my other 7 c kites I have in my cupboard from 2005-2007 years, the bar and lines seem like they could have been straight from 2003 and I was not impressed. The kite had a very small amount of range befor the lines became slack and did nothing to the kite, having pointless depower throw length. I also found the kite to have a tiny range where I felt it actually worked and unhooking I had to run full depower to stop it back stalling. And when the kite is flown above there is still a huge amount of lift and I found I lost alot of power as the kite was slower to accelerate. I hated the kite untill I looped a raley, but there is still no way I would buy that kite, old technology I reckon, what's changed since c kites in 2003?
Switchblade bar feeling. The switchy is very nice to ride because of the large depower throw that the kite follows. When the bar is out the kites angle of attack changes through the entire bar throw range and when the kite is above twitch bar out there is little to no pressure allowing the kite to accelerate and the bar to be slammed in to get big lift, for beach starts and transition jumps.
Fuel bar feeling. The fuel was tested straight after the torch and I found a bit better but still not what I'm after. Can also tick this off my list, I want to try the rpm though.
Ozone c4 bar feeling. The c4 really did tick all the boxes for me as thelarge depower throw worked all through the range. Fast loops although alot of work to fly I found it fun, although I was sweating the entire time. C4 is a maybe to buy
Soooo what I want to know is how does the Vegas feel in the depower aspect.
Does the range of bar throw match what the kite does? Or when you let the bar out a bit the lines slack and do nothing to the kite which continues to pull you at half throttle?
When the kite is flown above is there a large amount of lift when the bar is out?
And what setting the kite is on as the wakestyle setting would effect the depower.
And how are the loops?
So obviously it's to do with the front line position, bridle changes the point, but the Vegas has a high mounting point that would increase the depower range away from a traditional c.
Sorry about the huge post hopefully will help some people out when deciding.
Thanks in advance
Hey troyrotor,
i would also put the Airush Varial X and Razor on your list to demo if you can,
i ride both these kites, i use the Varial X as my light wind kite, as it has a better low end but still has good unhooked performance and slightly higher unhooking range, it only has four lines with a bridle so re-launch is easy. I use the Razor when the wind picks up, has better unhooked performance (could easily ride unhooked for a while) and a heavier bar pressure, though having 5 lines and no bridles it is definately has more of a 'C' kite feel. It does need the 5th line to relaunch unless its really windy, though the 5th line is normally slack without de-power.
So if you are just getting into unhooking i would reconmend the Varial X, but if you are already confident i would definitely go the Razor. Probably similar to the difference between the RPM and Fuel.
PM me if you want a full review
Switch is not a looping kite period.
You said: Ozone c4 bar feeling. The c4 really did tick all the boxes for me as thelarge depower throw worked all through the range. Fast loops although alot of work to fly I found it fun, although I was sweating the entire time. C4 is a maybe to buy
Soooo what I want to know is how does the Vegas feel in the depower aspect.
Does the range of bar throw match what the kite does? Or when you let the bar out a bit the lines slack and do nothing to the kite which continues to pull you at half throttle?
When the kite is flown above is there a large amount of lift when the bar is out?
And what setting the kite is on as the wakestyle setting would effect the depower.
And how are the loops?
The vegas is similar to the range of bar throw etc similar to C4. You also need to work the Vegas like the C4 but probably not as much. The vegas will drop you much quicker than the C4 is bar let out, the C4 is a better boosting kite. The vegas is more forgiving on the loops, it loops really well, better than the C4 but only just. Not sure about wakestyle setting as I always ride free-ride setting as that is enough for me. Both unhook well.
The difference: C4 has a bigger wind range at the upper end. The vegas has probably better low end. Vegas loops a little more forgiving (gives you a sudden uplift as you bring it around), but the C4 is still fantastic. The Vegas is a no brainer, the C4 has to be flown, you need to learn to fly the wing. The C4 boosts better. Both are surprisingly good in the waves (a fact that doesn't get a lot of mention). Better than the rebel in my opinion due to the rebels pivot/stall characteristics and less ability to bleed of power, as the rebel flies forward then sits back in the window. The vegas eats gusts, not sure of the C4, haven't ridden it long enough and in different conditions.
Also....the bar pressure on the Vegas is heavy compared to the C4, but the it has been rumored they have dropped the bar pressure in the 2013 batch to come.
Both are awesome kites, you want 5 or 4 lines? You want a very stable canopy of something that is stable enough. Probably the deciding factors as they both will do the job nicely.
Thanks guys that's awesome pretty much answers all I need to know.
As for the airrush kites I want to stick with a brand that my local store deals as I would rather give my money to people I know. Thanks anyway.
Sounds like the vegas will suit me perfectly, looking forward to demos.
Not worried about the actual bar pressure, just hoping that the new Vegas having lower bar pressure doesn't effect the other aspects of the kite hat I am after, as decreasing bar pressure can be done by moving front attachments back or rear back, to do this and continue to have a large depower range without bridles would be difficult.
4 or 5 line I'm not too fussed, I really like 5 line for light wind relaunch but hate it for tangles.
Post back here on the 2013 Vegas please!
Killing it for 8 months bro! Something to aim for ;)
Thanks mate, where abouts in qld do you hang around?
8 months but I've been slacking alot lately havnt been pushing it that hard. Ive been landing the same old tricks for months now. My kite is spending to much time in the air and not enough time smashing the water.
Will let everyone know how the Vegas goes.
im not sure but would the 5th line reduce impact damage when unhooked ?
and at your level would you suicide it or 5th line ?
i hope you choose a c4 . im very happy with mine 
the middle bridle settings are quite different .
but havent tried the steer lines yet
you should try my ion 4 ? am enjoying it now as im flying it in stronger winds . that has helped it relaunch . 8.5m in 20kn ish now .
more grunt than c4 but a bit slower speed . quick turns .imo
Fly the C4 and Vegas back to back if you can. They are very different and yet do serve a similar purpose.
The fact that you love your old Vegas may sway you, but all I can say is the decision was very very close for me and because I was keeping my 11m rebel, the Vegas one. The C4 is a sweet kite man, don't discount it.
Hey Ron I'd definitly run suicide. The amount of times I crash I would not want to be pulling in the fith and resetting all the time.
I have made a fully custom setup for my switchblade and clip my safety around the plastic tubing above the quick release so I don't get twists in my leash/chicken loop.
Not that I've have anything against other brands but I think I'll stick to the main ones, although I do like the look of the new bridled c made by core.
Probably no work tomorrow again because of rain so I'll either take my old Vegas 9m out or the 9m fuel. Or maybe the liquid force spectrum 8 or the switchblade 8.
Haha so many old kites I have to choose from.
8 months and somehow I have 9 kites
hey troy when you demo the vegas put it in the water and try the relaunch , im not bagging the kite as it flys great but the relaunch is an issue , ive seen a local floating around for ages trying to get it back up in good winds
reeling in the 5th would be painfull
does the cabrinah have a mini 5th set up ? ids ?
im not sure of its advantage over suicide yet.
but it should depower the kite more
hope to see you out there tommorow ?
all i read about the torch's is this back stalling business.. kinda concerning as i was hoping to get a 2013 quiver if they do away with that crappy tribal nonsense all over the LE and struts, but ill have to demo it and see for myself.
i fly 2012/2011 vegas's and cant really fault them as all rounder and introductory to unhooking (]like you i only started last year). If you already unhook you will never fly them on anything other than wakestyle but the tradeoff to having still a very good depower on the bar is a very punchy kite.
going from slack to load is more often than not a knee jerk reaction and hard to dial in smoothly and makes me wonder if a more heavily 'C' orientated kite (i.e heavier bar, less depower) are smoother and more predictable in this manner as the power is always on.
that being said it fly's awesome.. super stable, no back stall and floats seamlessly down the lines a testament to this is i never ever drop my kite.. like ever. the vegas is hard to really **** up on and when you do 95% of the time you can save it (suicide system rocks) and thats why i think it appeals to the masses. The supported LE also makes for a bigger wind range which is always good.. doesnt matter if you have the best kite in the world, if it doesnt have the range to handle gusts or soak up luls you will be frustrated 60% of the time.
anyway like i said im fairly green but i want to try some handle passes soon and im looking at something with a bit more consistent pull in fear the vegas will bite mid reach and break my arm off. like you i need to demo.
You guys have made up my mind hahah
As for relaunch, with a fifth line and knowing how to use it there is no reason you shouldn't be able to launch in less than most four line kites.
The cabrinha has a ids line that when the safety is pulled flags to both front lines. My custom setup has gotten rid of that, I use the 2010 pro kit swivel chicken loop and I've made custom adjustable dyneema lines that V directly above the depower strap, and shattered the swivel so that's gone too.
This is so I can pass the bar through the V easily when tangles occur. And the swivel never worked in the first place so it's awesome to be able to manually unspin the lines. I kind of go out and just try the same trick over and over to get into rhythm so the lines become twisted the same direction when learning new stuff.
Well I'm waiting for the call from the boss about the weather but there is a good chance I'll be down at shearwater today.
Same same! I'll pm u my number man let me know if you head down we were planning in staying up here, can never guess conditions well enough.
Hi Troy. Reading your post it sounds like one of the most important characteristic with a new kite to you is its ability to de power. A true C kite will have nowhere near the de power of your switchblade.
Are you sure you really want a C kite?
You have said you are into wakestyle and want to try powered handle passes. Have you considered that there may be characteristics with the new kite you get, that will be more important to this style of riding than just the kites ability to de power?
Just putting it out there for you, but if you get a Vagas, They do look a lot better next year. Look's more like a Torch or, Fuel.
I think he is suggesting more than that. Depower was in reference to unhooking.
Also, I've ridden the switch and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt you are wrong, completely wrong, the vegas depowers much easier than a switch. The switch is designed to fly forward then back into the window generating what we may call low end grunt, similar to the rebel.
The Vegas and C4 fly forward in the window more, much easier to depower, handles gusts much easier, and works in the surf much better as you can bleed the power off when you need. Of course this is moderated a little when on wake style mode, but you would start on the freeride anyhow.
I feel you may need to spend a little more time on C's or the Hybrid C's as your statements are as wrong as you can get frankly.
Also the colour of the kite should match your wetty as well, got nothing to do with performance.
Maybe I read Troy wrong but he seamed to be asking about using the bar to de power the kite. Yes C kites can be flown further towards the edge of the window to de power, them and in doing this the power of the kite can be easily controlled by edging and good board control. Troy was talking about using the bar to de power and the amount of bar throw. True C kites do not have the same bar throw and de power from the bar, and they do not need it.
As you said Eppo, this is different when you can fly the kite further forward in the window.
Just putting it to Troy that if he wants to get into doing powered handle passes he may do better looking for different characteristics in his next kite, rather than just the de power. After all, with anything unhooked the kite will be fully powered, so the de power ability of the kite bar is largely irrelevant. Maybe when you demo a kite Troy, you explore the kites Pop and Slack characteristics, as this is what you will need in a good kite to pass the bar.
Would be interested to hear what you think of the new Vagas, as I think they look much better.
Yeah what juice said, I wasn't really recommending it for your needs either troy.
I've done a bit of my own bridle design on old c kites to improve the depower travel.
It's the range of angle of attack that the kite can cover that determines the amount of depower avaliable.
When the kite is fully powered without oversheeting is one end of the scale, when letting the bar out the kites AOA changes to a point where the kite becomes balanced over the front lines, or where a bridle is used the balance point keeps moving as the pulleys travel and the kites AOA decreases until the bar becomes out of reach.
This also applies to an ozone c4 bridle as the bridle sits slightly towards the center of the kite rather than mounted directly at the front corner of the kite, at full power the bridle sits directly below the leading edge. As the bar is let out, the bridle moves forward and outward moving the balance allowing more depower.
From what I can see from the Vegas is that the front lines are attached further up the leading edge rather than on the front corner, the fact that it is attached higher allows the balance point to be more forward when the AOA is decreased. Hence allowing more depower than a standard c kite where the balance point is fixed at the front corner and can't move.
When at full power the kite should perform 100% as a normal c.
As the front line attachment point is up higher you can see the requirement for the curved leading edge between front and rear line attachments, this is also visible on the c4 and fuel.
From my experience passing with the switchblade I've found that the line slack is pretty crap, but I'm not really woried about that as its probably my technique. But I would imagine a c kite having worse slack. If others can do the tricks they do on these kites I'm sure it's possible for me to harden up.
I need diagrams to explain all this better
Tom court is old news, look out for me now haha.
All that's left now is to demo and see how it goes.
I would like to take the 13m chaos off my list.
Tried it out today and a night session last night, not a fan.
The bar pressure is really heavy, gives you the feeling you are powered but arnt actually. The bar throw is good, have a good feel all the way through the travel.
I found it slower than my 11m switchy and less powerfull in sub 15knots.
Looped nice though.
The 11m may change my mind but wasn't my kinda kite.
I'm having trouble beating the switchblade, its slightly biased as I'm so comfortable on it but hopefully I'll get a Vegas demo soooon.
slower then the switchy!! holy **** no.
Mate picked up an sparkly 2012 vegas 9m had it up in the air and i fell in love, have to give it a whirl first but looking at picking up an 8 or a 9 im thinking!! (ps cracked the egg on darkslides!)
you are comparing a 13m to an 11m, personaly i prefer my slower kites for the practice sessions to refine my tricks i think my 14m is possible my fav and then my 10m with the smaller bar setting. Obviously faster kites can be fun when you want to surf or if the winds a bit on the light side and may i ask what difference bar pressure has to unhooking which i thought you where predominantly interested in? it might slow loops but i was under the impression it made the transition into unhooking smoother.. how did it feel unhooked?
i always think its odd people complaining about the speed of c kites! but i guess having the options to speed it up is better though :)
The reason I'm concerned about speed is that my switchblade is perfect except the speed.
I know I'm comparing the 13m to an 11m but the power is less. So there is no point comparing an 11m chaos to a 11m switchy when the chaos can't be used untill 20+knots, I should compare a 9m switchy to a 11m chaos.
Speed is a big deal when it comes to light wind, I can get more power out of my 11 than I can on a 12. The chaos put out less power than my 11 and was too slow to sin to get power.
The chaos unhooked was very heavy steering wise, I normally steer with my hands close to the center of the bar, the chaos needed hands toward the outside and still had to put so much effort into steering. I know this is desired in learning unhooked tricks but the effort need to steer is too much.
The usual c shape of a kite gives a big jelly fish after the pop, allowing line slack, the chaos didn't. The kite looks c style but feels exactly like every other cabrinha kite.
Thanks gibilator the Vegas is still sounding like the right kite.
