Forums > Land Yacht Sailing Construction

Clemco Mini Build

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Created by Clemco > 9 months ago, 9 Jan 2010
Clemco
430 posts
26 Jan 2010 5:30PM
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Welder is going great. I have half the frame stuck together and have not burnt down the shed! Now working on the clamps for the main axils before I attach them to the main spine.
One last welding question: Can my gasless Mig welder weld stainless steel bits (i.e. nuts, bolts, attachments, etc) to my mild steel frame?

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
26 Jan 2010 11:44PM
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Yes... you can weld S/S with the set up you have, mind you the S/S part will rust a bit around the weld area due to the heat.

Clemco
430 posts
3 Feb 2010 12:57PM
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Finally got the main frame welded up!!! You wouldn't believe it , I miss-read my own plan. The angle on the jig should have been 20 degrees, not 15. Just as well I noticed before I welded on the "legs". 15 degrees would have been ok if I was using 400 diameter wheels on the rear.
Fixed problem with the welder when I was half way through the job. There was a loose connection in the handpiece, and it wasn't just me! A wire had unpluged itself and was just touching its connection. The wire feed would stop for no apparent reason while I was welding and melt the wire down to the nozzel. Very fustrating!
I have changed "the plan" just slighty. I ended up using 50 od x 1.6 exaust tube mainly because it is easy to access. Would have prefered 2mm wall if they had it, but I think 1.6 will do for lightweights. I have desided to use 45 x 3mm aluminium tube to fit into the 50 tube so I can just pin them with the 10mm bolts. Also will probably use a bike fork for the front end as the wheel I have can only take a standard bike axle. I think I will update the plan when I have finished the build. Heaps of work to do yet. Front steering, rear wheel attachments and seat/footrest.




j murray
SA, 947 posts
3 Feb 2010 8:33PM
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good show Clem....missus kick you off the good table/workbench

Clemco
430 posts
4 Feb 2010 7:13AM
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Next job is to make the stub axle attachments. I'm going to experiment here. I plan to mount the stub axles in Nolathane bushes to soften the ride a bit. Also I will be aligning the main axils with the centre of the wheel. It will lessen the touque in the rear axles, but I wont know if this is a good thing or not untill I have sailed it. I can always change it later if I dont like it. I need to get the rear wheels on so I can set up the steering.

cisco
QLD, 12321 posts
4 Feb 2010 9:27AM
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Coming together well Clemco. You may be aware of these wheels.

www.challengersulkies.co.nz

With hub modification they may be better than BMX wheels.

Clemco
430 posts
4 Feb 2010 8:57AM
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cisco said...

Coming together well Clemco. You may be aware of these wheels.

www.challengersulkies.co.nz

With hub modification they may be better than BMX wheels.

Yes I have seen the sulky wheels. They are a bit heavy for their size (18" rim), and have been known to melt in the hot Aus sun. I will stick to the 20" BMX and eventually make some fibreglass ones like Vic's. The cast aluminium ones I have will do for now to get the yacht rolling. The rims are quite narrow and may be prone to peeling off tyres with hard cornering.
Thank you guys for the help with the welding. I have been wanting to learn that skill for years. The frame so far weighs in at 3.5kg.

kiwi307
488 posts
5 Feb 2010 2:21AM
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Clem, as a suggestion, why not weld your "axle holders"directly to the axle tube without the dogleg running back? One less weld, and would reduce the twist on the axle?

Hiko
1229 posts
5 Feb 2010 5:25AM
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Would actually increase the twist on the axle wouldnt it if Clem did that?
The centre of the wheel is on the centre of the axle line now I think

Clemco
430 posts
5 Feb 2010 7:13AM
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kiwi307 said...

Clem, as a suggestion, why not weld your "axle holders"directly to the axle tube without the dogleg running back? One less weld, and would reduce the twist on the axle?


You are both correct to a point. The way I am setting up the axle alignment will eliminate any twisting from the vertical force on the wheel, but not the side forces. I want to see if the side force is balanced out by the camber of the rear wheels and the sweeped up axles. As I said earlier this is a bit of an experiment and I will only know if it works once I have got it on the beach.

kiwi307
488 posts
5 Feb 2010 1:47PM
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I understand what you are saying but I am not sure if you are right! It will be easy to check as if you are right you will be able to use it without the clamp bolts done up!
Any rotation of the axle with the delta axles is a wheel alignment issue!

Clemco
430 posts
5 Feb 2010 6:42PM
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Got the rear wheels on ! Yeah! So far all looking good.
Yes I can stand on it witout my nuts done up, yes it does fallover with a side force, but when it does the wheels still stay parallel. But with the nuts done up that wouldn't be a problem?? I'll find that out on the beach.



kiwi307
488 posts
7 Feb 2010 7:12AM
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landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
7 Feb 2010 7:38PM
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i concur with yourand add my own

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
7 Feb 2010 10:56PM
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Clemco said...





That is diabolically clever!

I dips my lid, great design

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
8 Feb 2010 3:55PM
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That is one great designe Clem. I see what you mean about the axel setup, mine goes out of alignment it the legs rotate which is a real pain in the a#$e.

I see you have hookworm tyres, I dont think you will have any trouble with them leaving the rim as they have a very stiff steel bead . (I use maxxis miracle
on my minni)
These little yachts are bags of fun and are so different to our class5 (the class5 feel like they are glued to the ground after sailing the minni)
Cheers
Vic

Clemco
430 posts
8 Feb 2010 5:16PM
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I don't recommend anyone copying this setup until I have sailed it. There is still a lot of side force acting on the wheel, especially when cornering hard. I have no idea what effect that will have.
Those orange hookworm tyres I have are really old and pretty perished on the sidewalls. I will probably put on some Maxxis Miracle 20 x 2.0 when I have it up and rolling.
Didn't get much more done on the yacht over the weekend. The lawns and garden got a tidy up though. I hope to have the front end on by the end of the week.

Hiko
1229 posts
9 Feb 2010 5:20AM
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Am I reading these threads correctly when I think people are saying that Clemcos wheels will stay in alignment when the axles are rotated ?
[I mean the long axles here not the short stub axles]
The long axles are in a different plane to the stub axles therefore any
rotation of the long axles must affect the wheel alignment surely?
This must be the case here as also in the class 5 YOTT designs
Sort of thinking out loud here
Regards Hiko

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
9 Feb 2010 11:16AM
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Thats like question Ive asked on many occasions about Y frame yachts "how do you know the wheels are aligned?" and "how do you maintain that alignment when sailing?"
Many years ago i made a Micro Mini yacht, the "Rickshaw" using 20" bike wheels, the alignment was ULTRA critical. I once had a long chat with a paraplegic basketballer about wheel alignment on the wheel chairs used, which confirmed the need for exact wheel set up.
From that time it's a straight axle for me...with slightly sloppy bearings

Hiko
1229 posts
9 Feb 2010 12:59PM
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You know a yott frame is aligned by aligning it
Once you are sailing you no longer know just as you dont know with a straight axle yacht when you are sailing it whether it is aligned or not as it bends forward and back as well as up and down
Sloppy bearings leads to more misalignment I would think would it not?
Cheers Hiko

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
9 Feb 2010 4:27PM
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Hiko said...

You know a yott frame is aligned by aligning it
Once you are sailing you no longer know just as you dont know with a straight axle yacht when you are sailing it whether it is aligned or not as it bends forward and back as well as up and down
Sloppy bearings leads to more misalignment I would think would it not?
Cheers Hiko


I know that a frame " is aligned by aligning it " ... but how?... is the alignment done with or without a person in the yacht, the rig fully sheeted or not as these would change the settings.
And yes while a straight axle does flex, the flex is normally up and down due to the pilot weight rather than forward and back.
With bearings I have changed several machines that I maintain to "self aligning" bearings or "self aligning" bearing housings and have reduced the failure rate of these slow turning / high load to virtually nil, rather than the previous 6 monthly bearing problems. (doing myself out of work I suppose but the client is a lot less stressed )

kiwi307
488 posts
9 Feb 2010 3:37PM
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And of course the question is.."what is the correct alignment?"!
In the good old days "Team Glen" spent many hours testing one on one with toe in, toe out, parallel etc. It seemed that each time there was a design change this had to be re-visited.A framed yachts were toed in until the load of the mast support came on, straight axles = parallel, delta seemd better toed out a touch, YOTT toed out more, all done with pilot in, "typical" sheet load.
The alignment tool of choice was a pair of rifle telescopic sights on stands which rested against the rims, and sighting on a marker about 1km away!

Hiko
1229 posts
9 Feb 2010 4:00PM
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I guess I just align my wheels on the Class 5 as best as I can
The club has an alignment frame which I have used as a check but I use parallel lines on the garage floor, load the yacht up with weight to represent its sailing weight and use a long bevel from the rims of the wheel to the lines .
Rotating the axles gives the adjustment needed
I do this check fairly regularly and have never had to readjust them
I carry the yacht on a trailer so that helps as I dont have to dismantle the axles
The axle clamps I have are strong so that helps also
What the wheels do when sailing I have no idea really
cheers Hiko

Hiko
1229 posts
9 Feb 2010 4:05PM
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Just read Kiwis reply I am much more low tech than those methods !!
Maybe thats where I am going wrong
Hiko

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
9 Feb 2010 6:15PM
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I have a simple parallel frame to quick check the wheels. it fits the minis and the 5. the only time I check the minis is if they have had a big knock.the 5 has alignment marks stamped into the chassis and axles.
Vic seems to be constantly checking his, or is that my imagination

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
9 Feb 2010 7:31PM
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My class5 has not had alignement problems(current yacht) I have drilled small aligment holes it legs to check it has never needed adjustment.
The mini has been a diferent propersition as I used a diferrent clamping system due to the thickness of the aly tube. But I think I have now solved that problem by drilling the inspection aligment hole and installing a locking bolt.
I now set the wheels up parrell this seems to achive the best results.
Cheers
Vic

Hiko
1229 posts
10 Feb 2010 3:50AM
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I had alignment holes in the axles of my class 5 when it had the sulky wheels
When I fitted the 26 inch wheels the axles had to be moved inboard to Keep
within the width and I havent bothered to drill them again and it doesnt seem to need them [So far anyway]

Clemco
430 posts
10 Feb 2010 12:42PM
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Hiko said...

Am I reading these threads correctly when I think people are saying that Clemcos wheels will stay in alignment when the axles are rotated ?
[I mean the long axles here not the short stub axles]
The long axles are in a different plane to the stub axles therefore any
rotation of the long axles must affect the wheel alignment surely?
This must be the case here as also in the class 5 YOTT designs
Sort of thinking out loud here
Regards Hiko


I think you miss-interpreted what I said. I said the wheels " stay parallel" when they fell over. Yes they will change alignment when the main axle leg is rotated, but not until you rotate them more than 5 degrees each way. Now that is not going to happen unless the locking nuts come loose. What happens is the wheel changes camber without changing alignment over that 5 degrees. The advantage is I can camber my wheels more for strong wind and less for light. If it is a total failure you will be the first to know. I can always cut and re-weld the offset until I get it right!

Clemco
430 posts
10 Feb 2010 3:38PM
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Gizmo said...

Hiko said...

You know a yott frame is aligned by aligning it
Once you are sailing you no longer know just as you dont know with a straight axle yacht when you are sailing it whether it is aligned or not as it bends forward and back as well as up and down
Sloppy bearings leads to more misalignment I would think would it not?
Cheers Hiko


I know that a frame " is aligned by aligning it " ... but how?... is the alignment done with or without a person in the yacht, the rig fully sheeted or not as these would change the settings.
And yes while a straight axle does flex, the flex is normally up and down due to the pilot weight rather than forward and back.
With bearings I have changed several machines that I maintain to "self aligning" bearings or "self aligning" bearing housings and have reduced the failure rate of these slow turning / high load to virtually nil, rather than the previous 6 monthly bearing problems. (doing myself out of work I suppose but the client is a lot less stressed )




Exactly the reasoning for me mounting the stub axles in those Nolathane bushes. It sort of adds a bit of self aligning (fuzzines) to the equation.

Clemco
430 posts
10 Feb 2010 3:53PM
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aus230 said...

That is one great designe Clem. I see what you mean about the axel setup, mine goes out of alignment it the legs rotate which is a real pain in the a#$e.

I see you have hookworm tyres, I dont think you will have any trouble with them leaving the rim as they have a very stiff steel bead . (I use maxxis miracle
on my minni)
These little yachts are bags of fun and are so different to our class5 (the class5 feel like they are glued to the ground after sailing the minni)
Cheers
Vic


I have a feeling this frame is going to be way too stiff for an LLMini with the tube sizes I have used. It will probably be more suitable for a Aus class 2 Mini with 24" wheels. Anyway too late to turn back now. I could always use it for both.



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"Clemco Mini Build" started by Clemco