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Forums > Land Yacht Sailing Construction

How do you interpret the new rule?

Reply
Created by kiwi307 > 9 months ago, 22 Mar 2011
cisco
QLD, 12349 posts
30 Mar 2011 10:33PM
Thumbs Up

niaychi said...
Iam not stirring the pot as usual,i asked a question regarding wheels you now tell me that a blokart is elligable to compete with other mini yachts in breach of the mini rules,so by your answer i can use blokart wheels on my mini




Yes you can use blokart wheels and be within the rule.

I think some are being a tad pedantic here.

Seems to me that the general intent of the rule is that it is inclusive of all mini yachts provided:-


Any fully assembled sand yacht wheel footprint fits inside a loop of rope 5.6m long, and the maximum wheel size is 4.00 x 8,(wheelbarrow style), and it has a tubular / circular mast without wing sections.

Now that is pretty easy to understand. It says "wheelbarrow style" not "off a wheelbarrow" so it would suggest an "off the shelf" wheel is what is desired.

If you got a set of rims turned up from Titanium I think that would fall outside the intent of the rule.

cisco
QLD, 12349 posts
30 Mar 2011 10:36PM
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Gizmo said...

If I saw a yacht using a round mast [of any size], using blokart wheels [or similar size] and running 10sqm or [more if you want] of sail and the yacht [built out of anything you want] fitted in a 5.6m rope loop.
I'd call it a mini !!!


Yes Brian. I do believe that is the intent of the rule. Simple and inclusive.

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
30 Mar 2011 10:52PM
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Now that we have the wheels sorted what part of the yachtdoes "without wing sections" refer to

desertyank
1263 posts
31 Mar 2011 12:44AM
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methinks it refers to the mast itself, as shown by this one....


Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
31 Mar 2011 8:05AM
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I'm just waiting for someone to ask the questions....
"Is a mini yacht sailing on salt, mud, grass, gravel, asphalt or concrete still a mini yacht?"
or "Must mini yacht races always be held on sand?"
or "Is a sand yacht different from a land yacht?"

Sometimes I just wonder....

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
31 Mar 2011 10:10AM
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Is it Legal to Race a Sand Yacht on a Salt or Clay Pan
Ron


PS: As I have not read the exact wording of the rule I would think that it is in competition context that these things are written and usualy refer to a Maximum size rig allowed to Take Part in THAT Race. So if you chose to enter a Blokart you most probably would be out classed in said race and Can Not Cry Foul if beaten. Yet If I wanted to enter Occum's Razor then the intent could be classed as cheating and I would be disqualified?????

When you think about it that would be like trying to enter a Formula One in a Formula Ford Race???

Personally going on the Physics of wheel size for instance if a class states 4.00/480 x 8 Barrow Wheel then anything of a lessor Diameter should be OK. This is because the physics of a smaller wheel would tend to slow the vehicle as the rolling resistance would be higher. This is a known effect in Drawn Vehicles/Trailers a Smaller Wheel causes the trailer to have to be Dragged all the time as opposed to one with a Larger Wheel which has a tendency to push, at times. These facts would suggest that a Mini with aus203's 20 wheels would be outside the rules.

Now have I muddied the waters sufficiently to confuse everyone??

Ron

IPKSA
177 posts
31 Mar 2011 8:29AM
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Hmmm, Interesting !

@ Gizmo , yes I would also call it a mini no matter how big the sail was or how small the wheels were once it fitted the 5.6m loop of rope and it could even be sailing on water or ice for all we care LoL, , its still a mini on any surface and if it works on your chosen surface you can race them on any surface you like !

@ desertyank - Test Pilot 1, yes wing section refers to the mast AND Sail ( eg class Standart type sails with wing shaped formers inserted not allowed).

@ Nikrum, Cisco , landyacht, niaychi and everyone else

The wheels !
Firstly , some clarity , there was a slight "lost in translation" and " lost in local terminology " in the written version of the rule and this will be clarified officialy next opportunity but everyone is complying with the original intent of the rule . ie, The max wheel size is actually intended as the the max TYRE size of 400x8. as commonly sold into Europe . This size is that of what is traditionally called a wheel barrow tyre in most countries.

The Wheel can be made of anything you like but a preference is for the plastic barrow type wheel to be used, so make em in titanium if you like but dont exceed the tyre size ! If the max of 400 x 8.00 tyre size is too big for you well then feel free to use smaller Blokart type size wheels and tyres or go smaller again if you like, just not bigger !.

When not racing or competing with other miniyachts (which includes Blokart and X-Sails which are now miniyachts by virtue of this rule etc etc ) use whatever wheel and tyre you want - eg Bigfoots for all terrain etc

@ Cisco, Nikrum - Clarity on the 5.6m rope rule - 5.6m is 5.6m and not 5.62 - the rope loop can only be 5.6m so no stretching allowed obviously.

The rule is also having some clarity included on the measurement by rope loop but it is being respected as intended by all at present.
The rule will have the following added,

'The rope must lie on the ground. The touching part of the tyres on the ground must fit inside the rope '

Other proposal formulated at the FISLY meeting of 22.01.2011:
' wheel size is maximum 400x8' is to be changed to 'the tyre size' .

You can put whatever pressure you want into your tyres of up to this size and yes it will change the profile and foot print of the miniyacht but if it! fits inside that loop of rope 5.6m long on the ground its ok .


Remember that common sense should always prevail and the KISS approach is paramount to having fun.

All inclusive is the intent , get people out sailing and progressing is the intent and I take responsibility for the rule being so simple. I was the proposer of this rule to the FISLY council and one of the people who pushed for this recognition for miniyachts for years and years recognising that it is the way to introduce new people to the sport.
There are always minor language and local interpretation dificulties in any multi lingual and multi national organisations - hence the wee tweaks to the rule as outlined above.

Hope this helps and this debate is brilliant as it tells me the rule is a success and doing as I intended and hoped it would, as I said above.

Keep asking but do more telling others !

So go forth and KISS

Cheers

Alan ( now a FISLY Vice President !)

aus230
WA, 1660 posts
31 Mar 2011 8:41AM
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aus230 would be outside of the rules if I used my 20" wheels that is why I have fitted wheel barrow wheels to the back. I have a 16" BMX wheel on the front(outside diameter same as wheel barrow wheel.) as fitted to about half of the home built yachts. They are cheap (mine is from the tip) a lot cheaper than a narrow wheel barrow wheel. I think the 5.6metre rule is what we wanted and gives plenty of scope for experiment, I don't know why we are discussing different surfaces. Lets keep it simple

Cheers
aus230

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
31 Mar 2011 12:02PM
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Alan,
Thanks for the clarifications.
Yup! Forums is Great Mate, they is the stuff what keeps the Grey Matter functioning..

I agree with you on the Fun thing BUT! There are those that get very serious about their fun and that is when a Rule Should Have a set of Solid Parameters to prevent Arguments and the Winning At All Costs mentality. I was taught in School (Cripes! that was a long time ago) that it was always good to Win but the Playing of the Game was more important.. "It is not whether you win or loose but how you play the Game". This is a Credo that was thrown out the window long hence gone. 'tis a great pity and now businesses are built on sport..
The GOD DAMNED! Almighty Dollar.. (No I ain't a believer) (No let us not go there)

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Burger in one hand, Beer in the other, totally worn out and screaming 'YAHOOOOOOOOOO! what a ride!'
Ron

niaychi
97 posts
31 Mar 2011 10:51AM
Thumbs Up

Gizmo said...

I'm just waiting for someone to ask the questions....
"Is a mini yacht sailing on salt, mud, grass, gravel, asphalt or concrete still a mini yacht?"
or "Must mini yacht races always be held on sand?"
or "Is a sand yacht different from a land yacht?"

Sometimes I just wonder....

We are not stirring are we gismo?

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
31 Mar 2011 6:24PM
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desertyank - Test Pilot 1, yes wing section refers to the mast AND Sail ( eg class Standart type sails with wing shaped formers inserted not allowed).
Then the rule should state "no wing section for mast and/or sail" to clarify

sn
WA, 2775 posts
31 Mar 2011 7:38PM
Thumbs Up

Gizmo said...

I'm just waiting for someone to ask the questions....
"Is a mini yacht sailing on salt, mud, grass, gravel, asphalt or concrete still a mini yacht?"
or "Must mini yacht races always be held on sand?"
or "Is a sand yacht different from a land yacht?"

Sometimes I just wonder....



I could be taken as stirring a bit here - is there a standard thickness for the rope?

1/4" x 5.6m rope compared to 2" x 5.6m rope will give very different results...

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
31 Mar 2011 11:33PM
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Preferably a 10" Ships Hawser!
Ron

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
31 Mar 2011 8:35PM
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IPKSA said...

Hmmm, Interesting !

The max wheel size is actually intended as the the max TYRE size of 400x8. as commonly sold into Europe . This size is that of what is traditionally called a wheel barrow tyre in most countries.

The Wheel can be made of anything you like but a preference is for the plastic barrow type wheel to be used, so make em in titanium if you like but dont exceed the tyre size ! Other proposal formulated at the FISLY meeting of 22.01.2011:
' wheel size is maximum 400x8' is to be changed to 'the tyre size' .

You can put whatever pressure you want into your tyres of up to this size and yes it will change the profile and foot print of the miniyacht but if it! fits inside that loop of rope 5.6m long on the ground its ok .


Alan ( now a FISLY Vice President !)


now we do have a wheel size problem
4.00x8 refers to the RIM width and diameter.

the numbers on our tyres will read things like 3.50/4.50-8
that tells you the range of RIM sizes the tyres will fit.
in our case the tyre is a 4.00/4.80-8, which by your interpretation is too big..
by a rule stating tyre maximum size , i would have to use a 2.50/3.50-8 tyre which is too small when stretched onto my 4.00x8 RIMS
I do realize that by intent, the wheels are exactly the wheels the rules are encouraging, but the changing wording is digging a new hole to fill in the old one


sorry

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
1 Apr 2011 12:15AM
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Paul and IPSKA,
This could get Bloody[}:)] It must be coincidence but the wheel and tires we are talking about just Happen to be around 400mm OD so to those of us that aren't familiar with smaller dia none Road Tires can get a little off the beaten path. I just naturally ASS/U/ME-D that the 400/480 X 8" referred to the OD of the tire and the Rim size with out giving it a lot of thought. One lives and learns.. The day I stop should be the Day they cover my Face. Paul that was not a nice thought..
Ron

PS; I understand that some measurements can refer to the Bead to Bead OD??

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
31 Mar 2011 10:45PM
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Bead to bead would be ID

desertyank
1263 posts
1 Apr 2011 2:54AM
Thumbs Up

Test pilot 1 said...

Bead to bead would be ID



agreed; we need an O>D> measurement (I think it's about 16" and (84549832865mm's) if my conversion is correct [}:)]

The guys here are racing 'mini's ' with scooter tires that are DOT approved, and measure approx 16" too. would they be legal under FISLY?

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
1 Apr 2011 10:03AM
Thumbs Up

Let get back to basics, what was the mini class set up to do? .... A compact yacht to get newcomer's into the sport, and to group small yachts together... NOT to create a race class. (Class5 and CL5 promo are there for that)

If you were new into the sport and looked at the class5 specs it would scare you off..... PLEASE DON'T make the mini class that specific.

If people need to be THAT pedantic and nitpick each and every part of the rule... the mini class is not for you!!!!

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
1 Apr 2011 11:00AM
Thumbs Up

Dang! What a pedantic lot you are!! Bead to bead can be any of several (Relative to application) measurements. As a tire is not a trapped surface and has several ways of gaining the said measurements
i.e;
1 Bead to bead (My thought) from the bead on one side around the outside to the Bead on the opposed side.
2 From the bead one one side around the inner surface to the bead on the opposed side.

3 Bead to Bead via the shortest distance with the tire laying neutral. This measurement can vary according to the weather conditions at the time as well as other factors

4. Bead to bead across the Radius of the tire, which can vary on a given OD depending on the style of Rim to be used. In my case 6 X 6 Aircraft tires.

There NOW!! Have I covered all bases Now let us not be Overly Foolish about this.

Ron

PS: Would you like me to go into the Physics of Trapped and Non Trapped Surfaces???[}:)]

Clemco
430 posts
1 Apr 2011 8:34AM
Thumbs Up

Gizmo said...

Let get back to basics, what was the mini class set up to do? .... A compact yacht to get newcomer's into the sport, and to group small yachts together... NOT to create a race class. (Class5 and CL5 promo are there for that)

If you were new into the sport and looked at the class5 specs it would scare you off..... PLEASE DON'T make the mini class that specific.

If people need to be THAT pedantic and nitpick each and every part of the rule... the mini class is not for you!!!!


I agree totally! Get over it guys.

aus230
WA, 1660 posts
1 Apr 2011 10:15AM
Thumbs Up

I agree Clem, The idea behind the home built mini(thanks Paul) was to build a small cheap yacht with little restrictions. Maybe some of us went a bit quick into trying new ideas (large back wheels), but when the 5.6m was accepted, I was happy to change the wheels. Lets build and sail the things and encourage people into the class without getting to hung up on every detail. Maybe 400mm maximum outside diameter tyre would stop the confusion.
Cheers
Vic

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
1 Apr 2011 2:43PM
Thumbs Up

Really, What is all the fuss about wheel size. If there are enough of them why not create a sub Class. I doubt that all of the classifications/Categories of land yachts conformed to the Original Rules or that they were deliberately built to a New classification. I should think that some Bloke like Paul came along and built a Pac' Mag' or a Mini and said Stuff it I'm here to have fun and then was followed into it with great Gusto by other like minded players.

After having looked at many photo's in these and other land yachting pages I would suggest to one and all that there are many yachts out there that fall one side of the line or the other due to there various differences. So what is a Mini that is .5cm over the required size. If we still call it a Mini then I could be justified in complaining that Occum's Razor should also be allowed to compete in that Race?? Simply put If it is a Mini then it falls with in the loop if it is over the Line then it becomes something else.

How about we all ensure that our builds are with in spec's and accept the consequences or shorten the Spine or Axles to conform.

After all a Rule is a Rule and is there to ensure Fail Play for one and all. Mind you the discussion is a good thing as it vents ones concerns and I guess gives us Stirrers a place to have fun which would be best vented on the Salt Flats.
Ron

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
1 Apr 2011 7:07PM
Thumbs Up

so its vics fault?
looks like your 6.00x6 rims are out , which is a pity as they are well within the spirit of the class, cheaper than 4.00x8 rims and the tyres almost free and long lasting, better quality rubber

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
1 Apr 2011 7:18PM
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IPKSA said...

If the miniyacht wheels footprint fit inside the loop of rope its a Miniyacht !

You can have an adjustable front end, rear axles - but beware the spot checks !

Over the past week there were miniyacht events in France, Ireland, England, Belgium, South America and Spain that I know of. All sorts of miniyachts are sailing together, Potty, Ludic, Skoot, Silence, X- Sail, Blokart, Windbob, Windreamer,Plume kart, Libre,Viper etc etc.

The miniyacht arms race has truly begun and guesse what, lots of people all over the world are being introduced to and participating in the sport we all love, landsailing. Which is exactly what I hoped the miniyacht class would do, bring more people to the sport.

Now I call that a result !

Alan


Miniyachts everywhere rejoice !

Keep in touch with the Landsailing World, miniyacht and daily videos etc on the new FISLY facebook page,

www.facebook.com/login.php?next=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fhome.php%3Fsk%3Dlf

So, lets see what a miniyacht looks like ......

www.char-a-voile.com/www-uk/ludic.html
www.minilandyachts.co.uk/specs.html
www.char-a-voile.com/silence.html
www.x-sail.com/
www.windcar-mexico.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=15&lang=en
www.spike.com/video-clips/2iqxkv/kwikat-landsailer-flying-on-2-wheels-beside-ocean
www.the-zooter.com/
www.plumefactory.fr/yachts/1-plume-kart

www.landsegler.de/sail-kit.htm
www.windreamer.es/

www.blokart.com/#MapFrame

Ikpsa, would you mind adding this link
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Construction/Build-a-Landyacht-Lake-Lefroy-Mini-Yacht/
to your list? all the other links seem to be site for buying a mini landyacht, which may explain why we've had so many US and European builders coming to seabreeze for advice and help in building their own yachts , rather than buying.
we of course are very happy to oblige them, and they in turn have passed their knowledge along
if people do get to us we promise to give them back, with yacht , afterwards

aus230
WA, 1660 posts
1 Apr 2011 7:44PM
Thumbs Up

Sorry guys I meant 400mm outside tyre diameter



agree Clem, The idea behind the home built mini(thanks Paul) was to build a small cheap yacht with little restrictions. Maybe some of us went a bit quick into trying new ideas (large back wheels), but when the 5.6m was accepted, I was happy to change the wheels. Lets build and sail the things and encourage people into the class without getting to hung up on every detail. Maybe 400mm maximum outside diameter Tyre would stop the confusion.
Cheers
Vic

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
1 Apr 2011 11:38PM
Thumbs Up

aus 203,
Where does that leave the Larger Dia Wheels?? No! Not a SStir but we should not discourage experimentation or Attempted Improvement to Land Yachting in General.

Dare I suggest a Sub Category or some way to accommodate your Large Dia Wheels. It would appear that Large Dia is taking a hold over seas? How do they deal with the problem.

Q: In order to compete for outright top speeds (Do Clubs do that) Does a LY have to be of a specific Category or can experimental/Any Design go for it?? (Just out of curiosity)


Any Way is aus203 a Mini? as it would appear to be larger than that in the pictures???

Ron

PS The trouble with being at a remote location is that one does not see machines in the flesh.

aus230
WA, 1660 posts
1 Apr 2011 8:51PM
Thumbs Up

Ron it fits inside the 5.6m rope ,actually with room to spare. Using the larger wheels would require sailing in a different class which does not exist.
Cheers
Vic

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Construction/mini-yacht/?page=1







IPKSA
177 posts
2 Apr 2011 3:58AM
Thumbs Up

Now I'm starting to feel the love folks !

Seems like we may just have twigged the reasons for the simple miniyacht rule.

So, as a special treat for those who may have a wheel fettish this is for ye ...
www.hortiinnovations.nl

And to try help a little more with the confusion over the intended max tyre size for miniyachts - what we are suggesting is that the "Standard Line" ie cheap and cheerful tyre is the max size .
Click on Buggy wheels site
Select the English version
Click on Buggy wheels
and then click on the "standard line" wheel photo for the tyre specs - www.hortiinnovations.nl

So now thats sorted lets get back to having fun - gret miniyacht spirit you guys and gals have, keep it up.

Alan

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
2 Apr 2011 9:39AM
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aus230 said...
Maybe 400mm maximum outside diameter Tyre would stop the confusion.


But giving just a maximum diameter doesn't comply with the intent of the rule for the Mini Class, The main intent from how I see it is they wanted people to use the more rugged wheel barrow wheels [style] rather than bike wheels etc. (perhaps for safety)

Yes Vic you are a whizz at wheel building but I would have thought that a beginners yacht should use easy to obtain, off the shelf components. We want to get people into the sport not scare them off.

Gizmo said...

Let get back to basics, what was the mini class set up to do? .... A compact yacht to get newcomer's into the sport, and to group small yachts together... NOT to create a race class. (Class5 and CL5 promo are there for that)



Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
2 Apr 2011 11:18AM
Thumbs Up

OK! So keeping it to all things Mini

Ooooh! I just loves WHEELS oooh aaah. I can see where you are coming from Giz-man and without getting too technical for those that aren't experienced in the whys and where fores and decide that a couple of old Bike Wheels will do the trick, any Plans this sight recommends should probably Stress that Bike wheels have a tendency to collapse under the Side Stress exerted by strong winds. Tassiefubar shows this in a photo. Although this looked relatively harmless under those conditions what would have happened at Great Speed, 80kph plus???? None the less no matter what we do, decide, stress etc there are those that will, regardless, go their own way. Hay! When they first started Hang Gliding there were those that went with Black Plastic, Bamboo and Duct Tape and a few busted limbs, cuts and Bruises.
Go back even further and they even tried frames with Chicken Feathers. Evidently those failed as Chickens can't Fly properly.
We all have to learn somehow.

400mm Max Dia, Wheels of sufficient strength to resist collapse and or approved by Club officials should be sufficient.
It then becomes up to the individual club as to weather a chosen wheel is Safe enough to operate under their Banner. As a Loner it is not up to a club to stop me from operating a dangerous machine on open venues. Clubs can guide and advise but can't lay down the law to none members.
Ron
PS; Thanks Vic, It just appears larger in the pic's. The Razor would fly on those 20" wheels.



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Forums > Land Yacht Sailing Construction


"How do you interpret the new rule?" started by kiwi307