Gizzmo
The intent was to show Ron some information on my mini(which was built before the mini rules came out, When I built it it was under the Lake Lefroy Mini concept where anything went,as long as it fitted inside Paul's measurements. That allowed using any wheels, wings ect.to it was an experimental concept )
I agree with the new rule and have altered the yacht to comply with the new rules, another thing that I think we have missed is that 90% + of the mini,s sailing are commercially built yachts and not home built,I hope that there are a lot more home built yachts being constructed now that there is a class underway
Cheers
Vic
Ta Vic,
Now I understand. Great now I believe we can all rest easy but I would like to see those wheels catered for. We all know you get a softer smoother ride from a Large Dia Wheel. Like you I want to see this Sport grOW just to have the company if nothing else.
Ron
Sometime ago there was actually a small Land yacht class that would have catered for even 20" wheels, but that class got hijacked by just a few people wanting to make a quick buck out of the sport. They changed the rules to suit their needs.... BUT that's another story that I'm not going to pursue.
The FISLY Mini class 5.6m is a great rule and will do great things for the future of the sport world wide. 
Looks Good Vic
I'll bet the Old Sphincter is watching real careful like for objects coming through the seating. You wouldn't want to hit a dried Pea
that close to the ground.. Least ways I have the Razors Spine beneath me
Ron
As the originator of this thread, which has gone way off topic..
Where there is room for "interpretation" there will be room for argument.
As one of the committee who gave the world the current (and previous versions) of the Class 5 rule we worked VERY hard to take that opportunity away. eg "the yacht must pass between,,," to give the width, no argument, it fits or it doesn't. not 2005mm, just 2000mm.
Now the current Mini rule gives too many opportunities. I actually love the idea, just needs some refinement.
The current over tyres is an example. The intention may be for "cheap and cheerful" but I think it would be much easier to take some complying wheels with tyres and measure them. The OD of the largest INFLATED, is then taken as the maximum. Allow a bit of tolerance if you wish. By saying 4.00 by 8 wheels (remember that some countries take a different meaning of wheels, some places the rim is the "wheel", others it is the combined tyre/rim which is the "wheel") allows for problems. Here in NZ I can not find any 4.00 by 8! The vast majority of tyres are 4.00/4.50 by 8.
The string rule is another area for conflict. Yes building the yacht to be adjustable allows for complying, but not the "best" designers solution!
I also know it's meant to be "cheap and cheerful" so was the 5! Look what has evolved there.
Looking at the contention over all I suppose that the Committees etc should just Take measurements and make them a Global Std i.e. Wheels- Defined as Rim and Tire Combined Maximum OA Height 400mm/16". Width and Rim size aren't not accountable.
The 5600 Rule does allow flexibility in length verses width but design common sense has to come in somewhere. I mean what advantage would there be in designing something with a rear wheels set 450mm Apart and a front wheel 3mtrs from the rear axle such a beast I would imagine would spend it's time on it's side or on it's Nose if the reverse were true. I would imagine also that the Designer of the LLF would have also taken into account the fact that a Pilot had to be able to fit onto the Damned thing anyway. The 5600 Rule appears to state Fit Within. One would imagine this to mean at Ground Contact points. If this is the case a LLF Mini would be measured including any part of the LLF that touches the ground and be inclusive of the entire patch. I think therefore one should state a particular type of rope (There are those out there that are near enough to zero Stretch) of not more than 5mm in dia. Said Rope should be Splices into a Loop who's Circumference is not greater than 5600mm. Said Rope should also be laid on a flat surface and the Machine sat within it, the rope loop to lay as it pleases. Any further disputes will be settled on the day by a Quorum of Club Officials.
Any argument will result in immediate disqualification from that event.
Are we going to take this thing down to the wire like some stupid parents taking sporting events into the realms of ridiculis
???
Ron
Take the rules as read and enjoy the sport. Discussion is a great thing but do we need to go around in ever decreasing circles?? We all know where that would finish up!
The 2 ply ribbed tyres I have on my two minis are marked 4.80/4.00-8
whatever that means It does seem that a max diameter of wheel and minimum diameter of rope would solve a lot of controversy and angst
for those inclined and still keep the rule simple
Maybe we are approaching the whole class rule from the wrong angle, maybe we should be trying to introduce a "Good Spirit Sportsmanship" Rule?
If people are struggling with this VERY basic rule..... you must really have difficulty in driving a car down the road.
Maybe we should think like they do for major sporting codes and drug testing, lets assume that the individual is guilty until they can prove otherwise.
Do people actually struggle with .... Rim + Tyre = Wheel ?
This is BASIC schoolboy stuff that a 10y.o. could grasp, get real guys if you REALLY don't understand the rules please put you hands up!!!
Kiwi307 did mention different terminology from other countries.
This is why I mentioned Definition. One can either find Global names for a said part or try to find a single term that can be understood by all. I think if an OA Wheel Height in both Metric and Imperial + or - ?? would cover a multitude of sins after all we shouldn't get bogged down in Nit Picking.
Does it mater if I can afford Titanium Rims and custom made Kevlar tires. One would have to be a win at all costs merchant, Would they Not???
Ron
Looking back through the threads on seabreeze in 2008 and then the small yacht class was "Class6" here is a copy posted on a thread and the reason for each rule... makes for interesting reading. Even then people were trying to push the limits and struggled the rules.
Referring to the original specs the design principle was simple…
1. Max width 1.8m
This was to enable small yachts to be easily transported and stored even the “Free flight” built yachts to fall into the class.
2. Max length of 2.25m
This was to level out some of the yachts, as many different wheels were tried from small sack truck size to 20” BMX bike wheels.(from the front of the front wheel to the back of the back wheel).
3. Max sail Area 4.25sqm
4.25 sqm was found to be safe and sufficient for learners, women & children
4. No moving seat
This was to simplify design and for safety
5. No covering OVER the pilot.
This to provide little chance of being trapped inside a yacht (as some fragile enclosed designs were starting to emerge on paper) like mini “sanderlings” again for safety
6. Round section mast only
Some fancy designs of wing masts were also being thought about which again would make the yacht design complex and going away from the original concept of class 6
7. NO sail fairings in or on the sail
The idea of a sail covered foam shape was also thought about thus going towards rigid sails.
May I suggest you contact FISLY with your concerns and report back to the forum when you receive a reply. It's their rule and their wording.
One could go to extremes. Do the rules say how many wheels you are allowed.
For example:- If you built a land yacht with four wheels in a diamond pattern such that at any one time only three wheels were ever grounded(e.g. front, rear and left, or front, rear and right depending on wind direction) then you could build a rather larger yacht than one would at first think![}:)]
I was reading that 4.00x8 is a rim size as the fisly rule allow the use of fat tyres on that size rim..
keep in mind that bike wheels are measured by tyre diameter/rim width, automotive wheels are measured by rim width/rim diameter, even french ones
. personally I would be happy with an overall wheel diameter provided it wasnt increased to allow20" bike wheel sizes.
If this size were allowed then I think the carbon wars would get started, wheras by keeping to the smallerOD the yachts would would stay simpler. if the diameter was kept at 400-420mm it would allow 6" aircraft tyres, 16" bike wheels, 8" wheelbarrow wheels, 6"blokartwheels, 12"blokart front wheels, and the little 4"frontwheel that the newPLUME mini seems to be running.
Anybody who want to try out 16"bike tyres on the back of a mini , be my guest as they just dont give sufficient contact patch to hold the yacht in line
I think the rope rule has pretty much been explained and is sorted.
mind you its fisly that need convincing re the wheels.
strangely, I checked in the hardware store as to what size wheels "wheelbarrows use and the 5.50x8 accounted for more than half the barrows
It would appear that something of a S--- Storm (No not Sand) is brewing over this wheel thing. If one would care to look at Wheel Barrow development you will probably remember barrows with 18" wheels built on Wagon Wheel Construction some in Wood and Some modified to Steel yet others with a solid rubber tire. I have seen them on the Fallshaw site of varying widths. My point in this whole shamozels was and is that the term "Wheel Barrow Wheel" is a very loose term and gives excessive scope in interpretation. No more no Less.
Paul himself said it all, FISLY allows for Fat tires as they fit an 8" x 4" Rim (or is that 4" x 8") and so do Big Foot Tires and they are monstrous in OD. Hence my thoughts on a Max' OD for Wheels + or - .5" as Tires can vary under various conditions i.e The difference between manufacturers. Do not read more than as read into my questions.
Ron
PS; Do not be Naive in this matter if a term is too loose it will be used against the 'INTENT' in the bid to win at any cost
Guys have a look at the manufactures mini's, Not a lot of them are using wheel barrow wheels, Maybe they are 400mm outside diameter but are made out of all sorts of materials, So why restrict our home builds to wheel barrow wheels?
Cheers
aus230
Question for Alan!
You quote the 400 by 8" tyre size. My question then is; is this a diameter, in which case don't include the 8", or is it a tyre size in which case there are places where the tyre size is "multi sized" ie 4.00/4.50 or 4.00/4.80 thus making a question mark over whether these tyres would be "legal".
I am glad that the "wheelbarrow" issue has been cleared totally as it has bugged me for interpretation all along that it has crept into the crypt and ...
