Forums > Land Yacht Sailing Construction

Laser Mast

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Created by philbr > 9 months ago, 17 Jan 2011
Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
27 Jan 2011 7:49PM
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Ron do yourself a favor get hold of a copy of ...
"C.A. Marchaj Aero-Hydrodynamics of sailing" ISBN 0-396-07739-0 most public libraries can get a copy.
Almost ALL of the questions that are going through your mind have tried and tested.
Also several chapters on high speed and land / ice sailing.


Clemco
430 posts
27 Jan 2011 5:20PM
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Ron, Yes, welcome to our world. How fast do you want to sail? And how long is that runway?

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
27 Jan 2011 6:03PM
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you can adapt windsurfer and land yacht for ice and that has even less resistance to movement [}:)]
Didnt see last3 posts at time of post

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
27 Jan 2011 6:08PM
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Nikrum said...

( Damn I Kill me!)



Do you wish some one would
I am sure it could be arranged

Hiko
1229 posts
27 Jan 2011 7:46PM
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kiwi307 said...

Hiko, you are right that Marchaj (corrected spelling) makes your head hurt. I like your comparison of power, however a though (and from Marchaj), is that the power of a sail is NOT proportional to the area, there is a scaling effect. You can't get double the horsepower from a sail twice the size. I can't remember what the ratio is, but I do remember some the stuff that was done in Bristol at British Aerospace in the late 70s, and a 5 metre sail was sub 1hp. There are all sorts of corrections for altitude, density etc ad nauseum, which is why all the pure science stuff does not use windpeed, but a corrected unit named "slugs".
FWIW when Gossamer Albatross was being designed for the X channel flight I think they rated a human at 1/7hp for extended time frames.


Yes I agree my calculations are crude and simplistic and now that I think about it probably cant be scaled to the sizes under discussion I was using something I was familiar with and jumping to conclusions oh well nothing lost I hope

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
28 Jan 2011 12:02AM
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Oops! I think I may have upset Clemco. Offering death like that
I thought Giz and Hik would have had more reason.

Seriously though. That "C.A. Marchaj Aero-Hydrodynamics of sailing" Must be good it has a lovely picture of a Yacht on it and it costs a lot of money and I am not a member of a library. I guess I will have to take your word for it but I will say Damn! It certainly feel way more than 1HP.

As for how fast do I want to go.. Let us not get too far ahead of ourselves Clemco, we will just go ahead in increments another 20kmph is the next increment 10 at a pinch.
The Tarmac section is about 100mtrs long by about 40mtrs wide with a row of Blue Metal on it now. I was probably milking it to get 80.2kmph out of the Razor and Chain Mesh looks Awful big when you are charging towards it at that speed

I am not one to Exaggerate greatly about stuff, yes i may brag at times but I do try to keep to the facts. I can not get past the surging acceleration of Land Yachts. It would also be lovely to have a digital Video Cam to mount on the Razor to show some of what is happening as you guys are starting me in to doubting my own senses. I have an Anemometer and a Bicycle Computer which can be set to actual wheel diameter and to day I purchased a meter and a half of lovely Bright Red Cloth to make a local Windsock. Why I have these things I do not quite understand as I was only doing this for a bit of fun and not competitively
Oh By The Way! Gizmo. The Bloke in the Picture------Ah!--------Was he into Land Yachting as well
Ron

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
27 Jan 2011 9:20PM
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Nikrum said...


Even Tractors and Cars is like Comparing Apples to Oranges and Land Yachts to Windsurfers (This will cause an outcry) as the Land yacht is the Pure Bread of the line, The Windsurfer by the nature of the medium it works in has to be designed more like a Tractor to get itself moving fast enough to break the surface tension where as the Land Yacht has a very low Rolling Resistance/Surface Tension to deal with so is designed to use the wind more efficiently for it's purposes.


Right that's it, GPS's at dawn!!!

He who has the greatest acceleration wins [}:)][}:)]

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
27 Jan 2011 11:35PM
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If you had a recording wind speed/direction meter on your landyacht as well as GPS set to record direction and speed over distance and time you should then be able to calculate acceleration and also hp/kilowatts given you already know the weight of your yacht and you combined

kiwi307
488 posts
28 Jan 2011 5:16AM
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Wow, 80 km/hr on a 100 metre strip, and 12 degrees to the wind. Time I stopped posting because you have achieved more than I have ever done. Well done.
Ron, you asked me to "quote me please", it was actually your previous post at 5pm on the same day you asked to be quoted, and the one previous to my comment about how close to the wind you can sail.

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
28 Jan 2011 11:07AM
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Today I will run the ute down the Tarmac and across it and post the results so that you may have a more accurate guess.
It may well sound incredible to gain 80k on a short stretch but this is what I was refering to as surging power/Speed and like I said the Chain Mesh and 8' high security Fence was looking like a 20' High Pig Mesh Fence Maybe a little exaggerated there but it did look horrible close when a Bottled it and turned away and at that speed it was with squealing tires and wondering if I would hit it or not I doubt that I would try to crack the ton on it as the Razor might well carry us side ways into the fence. Regarding my claims as to how close to the wind I was getting. I can only go on what I am seeing and if I were
Running directly down the strip and a Windsock 500mtrs away is not far off that axis then I can only go by the info few in. However I must also say that there are a couple of buildings close by and there may be some effect from wind deflection and perhaps compression prior to the deflection again I will post some pic's of the area. Damn! I really need someone more experienced to sail the Razor to the Max' while I take the necessary readings. One of these days I am going to go over to Strahan and go for it on the Ocean Beach.

Ron

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
28 Jan 2011 12:57PM
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OK! So I lied 200Mtrs Long x45Mtrs Wide. I suppose it does make a little difference[}:)].




Hopefully you know haw to zoom in---------If you want. Ctrl + or -. This Is The Strip/Sunset Strip
Sorry about the Bad Guess. How the Hell did I ever Hit the Clout Target at 180yards
Ron

blake52
123 posts
28 Jan 2011 10:13AM
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aus715 said...

OK, so the load going through the mast step of a Blokart would be what do you think?


Aus 517,
Not much! that type set up with solid struts going back from fairly low on the mast to the ends of the axles and no forestay transfers loads totally differently from a wire stayed rig. It works fine on yachts with really light frames like US Mantas.

When I tried wire stays on a Manta-like set up with 1.5 x .056 wall aluminum tubes in the main frame, I got a serious shock when I tried to tip the boat over to work on the bottom. I pulled on one of the side stays to capsize the yacht and it didn't even lift the opposite wheel it just slammed the frame under the mast right down to the ground

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
28 Jan 2011 4:34PM
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I stopped by the local library today and the nice librarian said they will chase books for people within the state or even Australia wide.

Did a search for the author C.A. Marchaj they actually had one of his books on the shelf, "Sailing Theory & Practice" it had a chapter on flexible masts / unstayed rigs and the sails that suit. Spent about an hour ...a good read indeed

Its good to see our rates and taxes have gone to buying decent books !!!!

kiwi307
488 posts
28 Jan 2011 2:56PM
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Nikrum said...

Regarding my claims as to how close to the wind I was getting. I can only go on what I am seeing and if I were
Running directly down the strip and a Windsock 500mtrs away is not far off that axis then I can only go by the info few in. Ron


Perhaps we have a mis-interpretation here, are you talking about 10 degrees going into the wind, or away from?

cisco
QLD, 12337 posts
29 Jan 2011 8:34AM
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kiwi307 said...

Wow, 80 km/hr on a 100 metre strip,


It is actually quite credible.

I used to sail my blokart on an area of the Gladstone Port Precinct which is only half an acre in size. It is half fine loose gravel and half smooth hot mix tarmac.

Coming off the gravel onto the hot mix I would get amazing accelleration.

Landyacht related a story to me which was something along the lines of having his daughter in a yacht, sheeted on but held stationary, then released and accellerting to 100 kmh in 100 m and out accellerating a commodore car.

He might like to confirm or correct that.

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
29 Jan 2011 9:56AM
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Now we are getting somewhere. Cisco you have just opened my eyes. Hot Mix/Tarmac is the key to what is happening. Low Rolling resistance, High Tire pressure etc is allowing the Razor to Roll faster, quicker and is easier to draw up wind than on Sand which will give a significantly higher rolling resistance. That is what Happened on Somerset Beach a couple of days ago. The Razor refused to move forward up wind and the tires, as wide as they are, settled into the Beach surface.

As I have already stated I try not to Exaggerate/Bull S**t in matters of National Import' . I was having serious doubts about the things that were apparently occurring. Thanks. It is a pity that my Estimate was so far out but it is corrected now (Re Strip Length) Even so 200mtrs is not long enough to go for the Ton and still make the turn.
I hope that some of you Lads have access to a goodly strip of Concrete or Tarmac to prove possibilities. Now a Disused Airstrip would be perfectly.. I hope they shut Wynyard Airport[}:)][}:)][}:)]

Kiwi307; Upwind!
(Down Wind or Across Wind (To Left/Port or To Right/Starboard) Terms, terms terms.[}:)]
Ron

cisco
QLD, 12337 posts
29 Jan 2011 8:58AM
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blake52 said...

aus715 said...

OK, so the load going through the mast step of a Blokart would be what do you think?


Aus 517,
Not much! that type set up with solid struts going back from fairly low on the mast to the ends of the axles and no forestay transfers loads totally differently from a wire stayed rig.


It is still quite a bit that goes to the bottom of the mast step but there is a lot of load transmitted along the side struts to the rear cross member. They are attached a fair way in from the ends of the axles.

A session of hard sailing in a blokart will almost invariably loosen the bolts attaching the side stays to the rear but will ALSO loosen the bolt fixing the bottom of the mast step.

No matter how the yacht mast is supported there will always be a directly down thrust which is part of the thrusts that are transferred into forward motion.

Isn't it??

cisco
QLD, 12337 posts
29 Jan 2011 9:02AM
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Nikrum said...

Now we are getting somewhere. Cisco you have just opened my eyes. Hot Mix/Tarmac is the key to what is happening.


Hot Mix Tarmac. I dream of owning a square mile of it, dead level with high wind exposure.

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
29 Jan 2011 10:13AM
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SALT is the answer..... smooth, hard, flat, SALT km after km of it !!!!!!!

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
29 Jan 2011 8:57AM
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Gizmo said...

SALT is the answer..... smooth, hard, flat, SALT km after km of it !!!!!!!

You mean like our Lake Lefroy [}:)]

lachlan3556
VIC, 1066 posts
29 Jan 2011 1:29PM
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You can keep the salt, too corosive for my tastes. I like the concrete/asphalt/ hard clay dream landyacht sailing site better

Test pilot 1
WA, 1430 posts
29 Jan 2011 8:08PM
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We have hard clay pans too that are closer than the salt!

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
29 Jan 2011 11:49PM
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cisco said...

Nikrum said...

Now we are getting somewhere. Cisco you have just opened my eyes. Hot Mix/Tarmac is the key to what is happening.


Hot Mix Tarmac. I dream of owning a square mile of it, dead level with high wind exposure.





Sorry to disappoint you me Ol' Son but Utopia is only a dream and as far as I know Clay Pans and Salt Flats are the Playgrounds of you Mainlanders. Us Islanders have only Grassy Paddocks, Parks and Long Beach's and Bits of Abandoned Tarmac to play on and as I've recently found all beach's are not born equal.

I turned the Razor loose with another "Gotta Try This" this afternoon. It was very gentle with him and took him for a 20Kph Circuit of the Strip so I sent them around again and the Razor gave Graham a thrill and shot up to just clear of 30Kph[}:)][}:)]. Mind you he went home after that, all excited like. I suppose Land Yachts is all the "Go" down there at the Beach Resort.
Ron

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
30 Jan 2011 9:21PM
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give me a sqmile of tarmac yes please.1x2kmof kalgoorlie clay would be awesome. just looked at some gps had one 84kph to 0 in 50sec immeiately followed by 0-85.1kph in 52sec.
that was miranda spinning out and sailing off again

sn
WA, 2775 posts
31 Jan 2011 8:34AM
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Paul- would that kalgoorlie clay be the Lake Perkolilli race track?

(not too sure if I spelt it right )

Nikrum
TAS, 1972 posts
31 Jan 2011 1:28PM
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Hey!!! What about Phillip Island (Never been there but it sounds flat) Race Track when it isn't being used?????? Gotsta be some LOOOONG Straights to hit on surely????
Ron

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
2 Feb 2011 9:16PM
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sn said...

Paul- would that kalgoorlie clay be the Lake Perkolilli race track?

(not too sure if I spelt it right )




nah, Perkollili got wet and revegetated itself



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"Laser Mast" started by philbr