Hi Guys,
Love the Forum and the threads make great reading.
I am looking to build up a landyacht but don't want to do the BloKart thing, as such. Impressive as they are my brief to myself is that I want to design and fabricate, not 'Buy'. As an A Class Catamaran sailor I hanker for high wind land stuff when the Club wont go out due to high winds. Some expensive 'spares' from wrecked Nationals litter my yard and beckon to be used creatively. I have lots of experience building up recumbant racing trikes and can bring some knowledge across too. I am not looking to make a first-run jalopy here either. Finshed, it needs to look the part and evoke a 'wow' moment from the uninitiated, and a 'Cool' from those who sail wet-boats.
Big question to start with, are wing mast sections allowed? I realise they are stiff and might put me on my ear in a big way, but the sail can be made to lay off when set up correctly.
Budget is important of course, along with the challenge of 'doing it yourself'.
Any suggestions most welcome.
Hello and welcome to the forum, Class5 and Class5 promo yachts are VERY specific in the measurements, constuction and rules. BUT there are other various classes sailed world wide.http://www.fisly.org/index.php?id=2
Class5, Mini yachts and the Blokarts are the ones sailed mainly in Australia.
If you were intending to build a larger yacht "Speed Machine" go for it....
Hi AUS715,
Welcome to the Brains Trust Gang. By Kriky!There is some knowledge here. I am only new to the forum and have built both a Pacific Magic and a Mini
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Construction/Just-working-out-a-build/?page=11
Anything can be built from something out of pure theory to the a Sail and Inline Skates. Have you tried that yet Paul?[}:)][}:)].
It may not be a recognized design but then hoe did these other designs become recognized. Thing is what do you want to do?? Compete, Have a S**t load of fun or just build machines for the hell of it??
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/General/Land-Yacht-Class-5-Mini-Yacht-Specs/
I built basicly to the Plans and threw in a bunch of my own ideas "For the Hell of it"
I don't compete I just want Speed and Power Slides and by the timw I get tired of that I most probably will be to Old to do this stuff
.
My point is Go through the Forum. Chat with the Likes of Landyacht, Cisco,AUS230 and anyone else that will talk to you, make up your mind, "Pull out all stops" and Go for it.
Ron
Americans really aren't doing much in the class 5 world (other than buying boats made somewhere else, which could start me into an economics of decline tirade) but no one has the big, fast, desert boat thing down like we do. Alan Wirtanen's boat is among the best, clean, beautiful and startlingly fast. Also surprisingly uncomplicated.
By the way, the couple of attempts I have seen at wings and wing masts on boats that started as class 5s have ended in extreme disasters (the mast step has to move way back or the center of power is so far forward that the boat capsizes almost instantly)
If you have a need for speed (who doesn't?) and a suitable venue, build a one-off. My fastest speed on a LLM was 110 kph, and that was over 2 years ago when I had only just started and didn't know better.
I want to build a winged mini or bigger if I can afford it, because quite unusually I want to go FAST!!!
You eventually get to a point where you scare the bejezuz out of yourself and then realise, hey I know how to maybe control that a bit better next time, so next time you push that envelope a bit harder, stretch it, maybe even tear it and put an even stupider grin on your dial. [}:)] 
Hi Blake,
The machine in the foreground has an hibrid mix of rigid wing Mast/Sail and Cloth Sail but the one in the background would appear to have a Rigid Mast/Sail plus a Rigid preformed Sail. Which type is the faster???
Ron
now that the lads have got all excited, heres some suggestion.
Build a LLM straight from the planson the thread . this will give you an idea of what you are wanting to do with the wing mast. a wing mast which works is a whole new ball game, so learn to build and sail first . with a recycled windsurfer rig and NEW wheels, you will have plenty of change from $500. and that yacht will go rather fast. going up to a bigger rig will require a bigger venue, which is something people dont think about till the yacht is built
this baby has an A class section offcut for its mast, total sail area, with wing only 4m and will pull 100kph if you give it the right place.. it also hasnt been sailed in 3 years as Im too busy sailing the miniwhich is now capable of also doing 100kph
so build a mini first
Hey! I'm just curious. From the way Blakes post read I was of the idea that the tag Wing was the faster. As for venue, how does 30kms of beach with West to SW winds sound close to the Roaring Forties?? Hmmm? Well the 30kms may be broken by a River but I'm sure if you got up the speed you could Sky across that without loosing too much impetus. One of these days in the not too distant future I will take the Razor over to Strahan. Check it on Google Earth Ocean Beach, Strahan 18 odd Kilometers long.. One a deese days Alice, One a deese days. Anyway what am I on about It started getting hairy on 100mtrs of Tarmac in up to 15k winds ;-)
Ron
PS. Just a point Paul, I have run both Razor and the Cat at a reasonable and found the Cat wanting for stability. Same rear wheel spread shorter Chassis and the wind wants to get a wheel up real easy compared to the longer Razor and the Razor isn't as twitchy in the steering. Strewth! I couldn't adjust the Tackle whilst settling in without the Cat taking exception to my actions
.
Blake,
Where do I get more info on those Wing Designs. They look to me like a Giant Model Airplane wing of my youth. Wood Ribbed Frame covered in Cloth??
Experimenting with such a beast could be a bunch of fun. No??
Ron
join wing boat groupe, below blakes photo, quite a good groupe, i have been on there for a couple of years, they have plenty of plans ect.
cheers
vic
Great suggestions guys and thanks for the enthusiasm! Landyacht, great suggestion doing the LLM to cut my teeth and see what 'bombs'. Having room to sail safely and a suitable venue is almost the largest issue.
Q:How important is it to have a sail that 'falls away' in the head, in the scheme of things? Gust response with a flexy mast seem to be critical.
what your asking ,is like asking what type of carby to fit on your drag car , before you own one,
certain sail/mast combinations work better than others.
the main variables to consider are surfacetype/condition, pilot size /shape /weight/ skill level, sail shape/mast combination/weight, tyre size/tread/pressure, windconditions/direction .
ie just build basic, and work up from there.
sometimes first time builders get a bit carried away and then step back to start again
Hi Aus715. From one Victorian to another, I hope you have fun with whatever you do. Do you have a venue in mind?
Landyacht, noted. Little steps, little steps. Sometimes the thrill of diving into something new lets the mind go a bit far. Lachlan, Somers/Balnarring.
Sail is sourced, a trashed fully battened Kelvar-Mylar A Class Cat medium headed. Mast is carbon HallSpar from USA, another wreckage bonus, 9ft long section, weighs 2Kg. Needs to pivot though so stays are needed. Can't see anyway around it. Chassis will be Lake LeFroy Mini design as per Paul's specs (nice work there!) and sitting on Bunnings wheels to start off with. Foot steered. Seat probably in Ply.
Build starts next week.
Here we go...Updates and photos every-now and then.
Those hardware store wheels are going to cast you about$50 each and you will be extremely dissapointed. they are awful for a landyacht.
given that a fallshaw is around $60, you could consider that if you just bought the fallshaws first ,you would be SAVING yourself $150
seriously tho they are really crap
Aus 715,
Since you are a cat person you probably already know this, but if you go for a stayed rig, the mast puts fairly amazing downward loads into the chassis. I have run a stayed rig only once, but by the time I reinforced the aluminum chassis tubes twice and finally replaced them with steel the weight increase had wiped out anything I gained from getting rid of the solid supports (blokart style) that formerly held up the mast, and puffs still flexed the chassis dangerously close to the ground.
Blake,
I know what you mean. The mast load is going to be high. So I am trying to figure out something that allows the mast to rotate a bit and stay up without the stays. Tricky. Any suggestions welcome on that one. One idea is to loosely stay the rig only 1.5m up from the base. Then the top will fall off a bit with some natural flex. This mast is not that tall though so maybe the loading won't be that high. A triangular brace under the mast step is the go too and wouldn't be heavy.
Landyacht. Tell me where to get the Fallshaws? Is it the bearings that are rubbish or the general hub structure?
Why not use a preformed wing with an aluminium pole up the centre about approx 1/3 from the front, sticking out say 500mm at the base. That way no stays needed and will drop straight into a class5 or LLMini chassis and easily rotate.
Here is a little more on the subject of wings..
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Sail-making/Sail-Design/
The "Fallshaw" head office is in Sunshine Vic [Melbourne]
www.fallshaw.com.au/wheels/pneumatic/plastic
Closer inspection of the W.A. ($59 each ) sourced wheels at Bunnings sees the same deep grooved bearings the Fallshaws run, but a weaker looking hub design. The Fallshaws certainly look much stronger. The Bearings were quite 'gritty' and I wondered if you can get some decent Teflon cycling grease into them? Worth the effort to get them, methinks.
Gizmo, nice one! Simple, elegant, lateral and effective. Love it. Thanks.
I actually like the cheap bearings [It seems the only one on the forum that does] but previously I have removed the grease from the bearings with Kero and an ultra sonic cleaning bath and run a light machine oil in them.... yes they are noisey, sloppy and don't last that long but have had at times had good results with them.
Most people opt for better bearings and often remove the inner seal to reduce the drag.
Funny you should say that about the dust shield and drag. I had the exact same issue on our recumbant race trikes and it turned out that the inner shield was rubbing quite badly on the contact surface that the bearing pressed up to. Solution was to use a conically pressed washer and weld that on, only allowing the inner race to be touched. Heaps of speed from then on. We use wheelchair racing hubs to great effect. Not cheap though but heck they go hard. Lets you mount disc brakes and so on. Might be useful here?
Yep, worried about that a bit but I 'just gotta do it' to paraphrase the famous sneaker Co mantra. It is in my head daily and nightly, and so deep that unless I find out otherwise then then that 'envelope' is not going anywhere.
Mind you the rig itself will only be 9 foot up at most as that is the length of the small section of mast I have. The other bit is 20 foot, so let's not go there (yet). The sail that matches the mast is the top of the A Class rig and total area (about to measure it up now) would not be more than 3 Sqm. Maybe I will get turned over in 20 knots, may be not.
Using stiff battens and a mast that can be adjusted for rotation can let the top fall off and exhaust properly, as I do on the water.
On an "A" (see avatar pic), we start reigning in the rotation to near zero degrees of attack over 20 knots so the 'bubble' starts to work really well to depower the rig. This also sees the head of the sail in the upper leech area fall off, just like a windsurfer sail tends to and can actually bounce and flex when gusts hit.
How amazing is that footage!!! I thought the yellow boat was going to flip at the end with that gust that hit him. The sails were all spilling out at the top so they weren't running much sheet tension, reaching I expect. Incredible.
The white masted boat is more like the section of mast I am using, about 150mm section, soft sail attached.
I am going ahead, so it could get interesting for sure....
SO...what wall thickness pipe should I use for the main chassis tube then?
from your description of the proposed rig I would be moving the mast step back about 200mm compared to an unstayed LLM. have a think about a step that is really adjustable ( over 300mm ) as getting the balance right will be pure " try it and see. moving the step back will give more room for the forestay to work .. I would put the mast hound no higher than 2m.
remember, we are here for you
cheers paul.
PS also have a think about a radial boom set up where the sheeting controls the mast rotation . rather than an independant set up , that you will not have time to operate
Radial track and trolley I have. End sheeting seems the best option. Do I even need the stays now? Adjustable step is a great idea. Made a big difference to a friend on his Sabre recently, now winning races as he can actually point. Outhaul adjustment is important too (?) and would be right in front of my face.
With the LLM chassis and its pull out wheel 'legs' I figure that longer arms could give more leverage in a 'hull raiser'?
