I suppose people would probably prefer that the Fisly Mini Yacht specification doesn't turn into an arms race pushing costs through the roof........................but I can't help wondering what might be possible within this loose definition.
For example, you could go super-aerodynamic with none of the restrictions on fairing present in other classes. Or, given the relatively narrow width, do you need a conventional chassis at all? Could the hull be a full-width monocoque with the wheels mounted directly on the sides? Could you gain more stability and speed by making two seats side by side and shuffling your bum from one to the other on different tacks? etc. etc. etc.
As explained in my other thread I have basically zero practical landyachting experience (which will probably be obvious from the above!) but seem to be addicted after one quick spin in a Manta and have been browsing this forum for technical gems ever since. Thanks everyone for building such a great resource.
plus the wheelm size restrictions, which is a pity as we are just starting to experiment with 20" front ends.
I have to agree that the lack of rules is a bonus. imagine the possiblities of tiny solid wings built from styrofoam.
. here in australia we tend to recycle alot and have managed some really great yachts.aerodynamics are creeping in , but the costs are not going up.
The art of re-using windsurfer sails can really keep the cost down .
In the last year Ive been involved in 4 completely different designs,all with free standing rigs- A low covered light Tframe, a rear plank axle yacht, an OTTwith a high sided body, and a flat Y frame with high body.
all of them have a different feel when sailing and all are incredibly close when racing. so your idea is definitely worth looking at.
One thing to consider though is that a low ,flat bottomed mini has a habit of riding up on a cushion of air at about 84kph. so a wider body might need some serious thought on its aerodynamics
The trouble with hard fixed rules is they tend to Stymie experimentation but if people insist they can alter a machine so much that they could be a far better unit than the Class allows for and could well create a new Mini Class. Rules sure but always self satisfaction and Fun are the prime ingredients. May-hap you can't race in a certain class but Throwing Down of the Gauntlet is a possibility, No no no! No Slapping with Chain Mail Gauntlets
.
Ron
Heres an example of a lightweight chassis that relies on the bodywork for strength. I think the overall weight is 26Kg and it flexes nicely - which gives me a nice edge over blowkarts as I can turn faster when tacking.
The chassis is mostly there for the mast step looking at the design.
Cheers Col
Interesting that the 'semi monocoque' yacht there flexes nicely, one of my big worries when I was musing about this was that the ride would unnacceptably harsh.
Landyacht, I think you are right in saying that innovation need not necessarily lead to high cost, at least in the early stages. If it goes anything like development sailing dinghy classes the real expense comes in finessing things to the 'nth' degree once one or two stable designs have emerged as optimum. The problem of keeping a wide bodied yacht on the ground at speed is interesting too - I wonder if any ground-effect aero aids like a diffuser or skirts would work with the apparent wind coming in at 20 to 30 degrees off the bow?
The styrofoam wing idea sounds great! You could make up small 'elements' and just slip them over the mast tube as required. They could have light ply ribs at each end, hotwired to shape, veneered and then covered in iron- on fabric just like model aeroplane wings............might well be cheaper than cutting a sail?
Any other whacky ideas out there?
(I know the pics show the wrong size wheels and a solid wing sail... for a mini)
So Why not a "Super Mini" Class. There wouldn't be much of a Design Changer to one of those for the Addition of Sysmic 8 x 2.5" and 8 x 4" Rims to give it a fine finish. Pure CF Hull "Dude" .
Ron
Rather than adding more classes how about we work with what is there and see where that takes us first.....
The Mini rules will cope with a huge variation of ideas 
I agree Gizmo!!!!
Let the rules stand for mini class competition, as its simplicity at its best.
But, this in no way stops people developing a fun machine, just to enjoy our recreation.
I'm lovin this .. success at last !
So happy that people recognise opportunity in the simplicity of the miniyacht rule spec , its exactly what I had hoped for and more people getting involved too is great.
Yes the arms race has begun but look at how much fun people are having along the way.
I love this Forum...........
Alan
Alan you posted an updated version of the Mini rules recently, I've been searching for them but couldn't find it, could you please post it again.... thanks
Ahh yes, maybe the wing ideas are a step too far! Still, plenty of scope in the rules as they are.
There is just so much scope and maximum performance is only one direction you could go. How about a cruising mini with space for picnic/camping gear? Maybe a two seater? Mini replica of an old wooden stern steerer? Mini DN? (guess who just got his copy of 'Sandyachting' by Andy Parr from Amazon!)
Thanks Chris for dropping the Sandyachting book into the conversation. Now ordered. One down now alledgedly 3 more books to go for everyone that's been written! What they are or whether there is three I have yet to discover!
Cheers Col
I was heading towards building a mini class 3 until the wheel thing turned me off. I am happy with the new rules but would have enjoyed playing around with wooden axles 20" wheels, cabled wing mast ect.
Cheers
aus230
I think people are missing the point of why the Mini class was introduced....
The reason for Mini Class is the perfect introduction to land sailing, where as Class 5 is regarded as the "International Race Class”
Mini Yachts are a class to encourage newcomers to the sport and ideal for women and children.
The yacht that is simple to build with no restrictions on construction materials or methods,
looks good and can be sailed in shopping centre car parks with lots of public exposure which in turn feeds the Class 5 with competitive sailors.
How would you feel if you were a newcomer and built or purchased a class spec Mini only to find some other person blatantly ignored the rules and beats you in a race you would be rightfully P### off.
Or even perhaps someone who has invested considerable time, effort and $$$ to manufacture yachts commercially.
The Mini rules are NOT hard to understand for goodness sake......
If you want to build a mini yacht in different configurations than the class allows, that's fine do it but DO NOT call it a Mini class.
If you use 20"wheels, wing masts etc ..... it is NOT a Mini class yacht !!!! Simple...
Just like a Class5 built with carbon fibre tubes or a 6m sail..... is NOT a class5....
If someone wanted to push FISLY for changes to a class wouldn't it be better to change Promo5 to Carbon / Glass fibre mast.
Cisco,
You are right Rools is rools, sure and I don't think anyone is trying to undermine SAID Rools. Anyway Rools is meant to control Competition and ensure Fair Play.
That is where Race martial's and inspectors enter the Game. It seems to me that we are talking about trying to take the LLM to the Extreme/as far as they can be taken. I would suggest that this discussion and any experimentation is a "Bl*&@y Good thing and would encourage those interested to go further with their sport. Are there any Rules that say I can't own a couple or 100 LY's? Keep the whole thing in perspective Are there any reasons we can't have a LLSM Class (Super Mini)?. Surely most venues, especially over in the Western Half, that are able to Run more than 1 race at a time. There are Short Course Races, Long Distances Races, Out and Out Races, Purely to achieve absolute Maximum Speed, Competition for Most efficient Land Yacht Design. Shoot! I could keep this up all day. CONTROL That which races in a specific class; YES! But never try to control that which people try to achieve. More and more I am inclined to dodge Club life and think towards just sailing on my ownsome away from control freaks. FUN FUN FUN Learn that the UTMOST important rule is for all Sailors to ENJOY Their Sport. Anyway Just as a Point, a Novice has no business in being put up against a Landyacht, a TP1, And others of that experience. It is their right to Challenge the more experienced Pilot to a race but a NO CONTEST the other way about.
Ron
Many many years ago in the early days of ALSA they promoted 3 classes in Australia....
"Class5"
"Class6" (which is virtually the same as Mini class)
and "Open Class" the Open class allowed "anything goes" ..... and despite the small over all numbers it allowed rapid development of yachts any size any shape.....
As I said, I am happy to build within the rules, I was expressing my intrest in the fun of expermintation of playing around with designe, it can't be done in class5 but when Paul first started the LLM concept (before FISLY rules came about) the concept was anything built within the wheel base. I know that the newcomer to the sport would be unable to do this and probly be at a disavantage,
as I was when I first started.
Ron , I think FISLY is very importent and there rules should be followed if we want to race our yachts in certain classes.
It appears that overseas most of the yachts are brought of the shelf so in the comming years that will dominate designe changes, pity tho as aussies and kiwies have always been at the front for trying new ideas.
Winged keel
The ute
cloths hoist
lawn mower
stump jump plow ect.
Cheers
aus230
Actually Australia had a small yacht class before any where else in the world...Class6. This class actually allowed ANY size wheels even 26" bike wheels, the yacht was measured from the front of the front tyre to the back of the rear tyres, rather than the wheel base.
This rule was dropped by a few rouges in charge of the sport at the time, they changed the class specs for their own commercial interests, FISLY then came out with the Mini Class rules which is what we now have.
Gizmo- here ya go - the update as requested.
Some small ammendments / clarifications were made to the FISLY miniyacht specs at the General Assembly during the 2011 Europeans.
The Rule now reads
A miniyacht is ,
" Any assembled land or sand yacht that fits inside a continuous loop of rope 5.6m meter long. The rope must lie on the ground. The touching part of the tyres on the ground must fit inside the rope.
The mast must be of circular tube.
No Wing section.
The Tyre size is a mazimum 400x8 "
End
The changes are just to recognise how its footprint is measured and to clarify the wheel / tyre size - its the same same as Promo Class and Standart front wheels and is also common as a class 2 & 3 front wheel/tyre - we call them wheel barrow type tyres .
Alan
How would you feel ....doh!...FAT!!! ...... If that's a problem go on a diet!!!! Or get a bigger sail, there is NO restriction on sail size is there? Reality is there are strong wind days and light wind days... can't change that.
But at least you are all working under the same set of class rules.
i am a newcomer and light as a feather ,yet i expect to be thoroughly thrashed if i decide to compete at all. that won't detract from the aim in the first place -to enjoy the ride
It seems to me if there are a bunch of people out there racing and concerned about weight variance there could always be a Handicapping system?? or perhaps a weight class system in place.
Anyway for me this is purely conjecture as I am never really likely to race being the the only one here in the North West who sails.
Ron
....doh!...FAT!!! ...... If that's a problem go on a diet!!!! Or get a bigger sail, there is NO restriction on sail size is there? Reality is there are strong wind days and light wind days... can't change that. 
