Someone recently contacted me re; Class5 and was wondering if there was any modern designs for this class?
The Pacific Magic design would be 15+ and the Club88 approx 22 years old. With all the design thoughts that have occured recently with mini yachts would it be a good time to kick around some ideas for a yacht that could be a stepping stone into FULL ON Class5, and maybe use some of the same stuff that the LLMini uses... ie. Fallshaw wheels, F/G mast, timber seats etc.
The chassis would need to fit ALL Class5 / Promo specs so with a change of rig they could move directly into Class5. The yacht would need to be simple to build for the DIY people.
The way the LLMini is built and sails has certainly inspired many people from around the world into landsailing, can we come up with a yacht for the next step?
Isnt that what AUS230 is doing right now? or do you mean something different
to what hes doing?
Cheers Hiko
It was called the Fed 5
you could build with wheelbarrow wheels or bigger, it was as simple as it got. But builders always want to go that bit further so it gets outdated in peoples minds
Building something that could go from promo spec to class 5 spec is going to give you a very uncompetative class 5.
I am not sure what is being said here several of the yachts mentioned are described as one offs when they are in fact built to the class5 international rule
My own yacht NZ717 Clemco NZ701 and I am sure Aus 230 while home built could be transported overseas to international competitions There is plenty of scope for innovation within the rule for home builders to experiment in class 5 and I dont believe having built one and a LLF mini that one is that much harder to build than the other Class5 has been deiberately kept relatively simple for that reason
The class 5 rule does say 2.5 metres wheelbase and no more than 2metres overall in width [not tyre patch centre]
One is just bigger uses more matierials and is quicker than the other
Having lots of classes I think just waters the numbers down as it has in centreboard yacht racing does anyone know how many classes there are of those ?
Starting yet another class for racing seems self defeating to me unless we want to be world champion in a fleet of two
Cheers Hiko
Cisco you've got it....
Im NOT thinking a new class at all, class5 is there and works VERY well.
KEEP CLASS 5 and keep it under FISLY control...
What the sport is now getting is lots of new sailors with the building of the LLMini, this might have been their first welding project at home or school. Many of those builders after time are wanting to spread their wings so to speak.
If a frame that meets class5 specs with similar concepts of the LLMini but grown up a bit (to Class5 size), using their original LLMini wheels and rig, to get them sailing in a bigger class. Get people used to this size of yacht and no it will never be as fast as a full high tech yacht.
Hopefully this would tempt the taste buds and inspire them into high tech Class5 yachts in time.
So what im thinking is an "Intermediate" yacht
Have been wondering about building a Cl5 with gal tube spine and 35mm axles slipping into 40mm centre section. Anyone tried this (ie: strong enough)? I think 40mm into 45mm would be better but dont think 45x2.4mm wall tube is available. Yes, I know....all steel and 'T' design 
Couldn't get much simpler though, LLM on steroids
Couldn't get much simpler though, LLM on steroids
strangely enough, i am currently working on a class 5ish rig. it uses a 2" main tube, has slip in rear axles like the LLMini, and a mast like the P.M.
havent finalized the front end yet, but am working on a fork type. the front end from the mast fwd will remove for transport. i am at work now, but will add a few pictures with additional info when i get home.
no seat for it yet either at this time.
, but they wont go any faster , for all the work
Apologies to Hiko, Clem and Vic if I was mistaken about your yachts' compliance to the class5 rule or you missread the thrust of my post.
What I am trying to say about the class 5 rule is that it is the design of a yacht without the pictures.
The part of the rule pertaining to masts is a "Specification" not a "Parameter".
The whole of the rule needs to be updated to accomodate newer technology and have the "fat" trimmed out of it.
Feet behind the mast, pilot totaly visible from above, minimum boom height from ground or pilots head, etc,etc,etc almost ad infinitum.
I take on board Paul's comment about the Mini, it's portability and performance being nearly up to par with a class5 as well as Vic's last post in this thread
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=65736 where there is a hint of disappointment with the performance of his recent Mini Build, ie Quote " Get with the class5 guys they are cheap to build/buy and are fast."
So, two questions.
One to Paul. Which is faster, the LLF Mini or the Promo5?? The margin as a %age.
One to Vic. Which is faster, your Mini or your Class5?? Also by what %age.
I believe Hiko and Clem are also in the position to be able to respond to the same question.
A Fed5 sounds like a good thing to have.
On our recent experience in light [10 knot] wind the class5,s proved to be over 40% faster on maximum speed by GPS over the mini,s
Totally different yachts really with different applications
After sailing Class 5's for over 20yrs mainly on beaches I find the mini yacht quite slow for the beach. Although I think it would be heaps fast enough on a sealed carpark with obstacles like power poles and concrete kerbs to negotiate. It all comes down to venue. Class 5 is perfect for the venues I have around here. I still cant understand why with those huge salt lakes in Aus you guys aren't sailing Class 3's.
Cisco
My mini is great fun to sail but my class5 is a dam lot faster. Sorry I was not trying to put down the minis or blocarts I think they are great yachts. (I have a mini to and love it) the point I was trying to make was that the class5's are no harder to build and should be consider them as an option.
Clem
I would love to build a class 3 but the only venue for it would be lake lefroy so it would come down to numbers, I think class5 is the ideal bigger yacht for western australia with rockingham(sandgropers) and lake lefroy being the main venues. (sandgropers would be the biggest numbers of class5 in australia)
cheers
Vic
It does boil down to horses for courses I built my mini to use locally on smaller venues and I can let the family loose in it and it is great fun for that
On Ohope beach it seems well... sedate
I wouldnt dare put my class 5 on the local park its just too small and it only takes one accident and those that like to rule our lives get twitchy and uncooperative
To the Auckland LYC the class 5 is their small yacht they mostly sail class 3 as they have a choice of suitable venues for the bigger ones... lucky them
Cisco , keep in mind I did say The minis were not much slower than WHEELBARROW wheeled 5's. The pacrim in 1996 showed that the Australian class 5's didnt even start to be competative with a NZ 5, so the speeds you got dont suprise me
these are last years speed trial results on Lefroy
GPS Results Friday 25th sept 2009. Av windspeed 16kph
Name class best speed(kph)
Vic Bermingham 5 74.52
Wayne Thomas LLMini unrestricted 61.7
Wayne Thomas 5 restricted 75.7
Paul Day LLMini restricted 74.52
Barry Pulford 5 restricted 67.7
The comparisons between salt and sand become interesting these results were gained from yachts sailing in a group . maybe vics 5 is a slowy
mini marathon
GPS speeds recorded for the Marathon. av windspeed 12kph
Name class speed(kph)
Vic Bermingham LLMini unrestricted 59.2
Travis Bartlett LLMini unrestricted 55.7
Paul Day LLMini restricted 62.74
Wayne Thomas LLmini unrestricted 59.1
Barry Pulford LLmini unrestricted 56.4
Bryan Cook Blokart performance 57.0
Class 5 marathon
GPS speeds recorded for the marathon . av wind speed 12kph
Name class speed(kph)
Vic Bermingham 5 65.26
Paul Day 5restricted 65.01
Travis Bartlett 5restricted 64.4
Barry Pulford 5restricted 62.5
Wayne Thomas 5 restricted 63.3
of the 9 yachts in my personal fleet, order of use would mini's on all venues, then 5's on lefroy . I did my class 5 testing on our little 750m x300m clay pan but the yacht would just be kicking into second gear when you ran out of lake. i only take it to lefroy when i know there will be other 5's to play with
Vindicator is down to 1 week a year, at most as it needs a volunteer to help rig and derig. ive been caught out with everybody leaving before and just sat there till a tourist came along
Those speeds are interesting they are right up there for the wind speed
There must be a big difference between sand and salt
Looks to me that the difference between yachts on salt could be less as well
On sand the minis smaller wheels maybe a bigger handicap than they are on salt
Do you think?
Cheers Hiko
Does anyone have have good pics of Fed5's that you can see the construction?
Or better still any plans?
The link on the Britsh site says "The FED-5 plan pack is currently being updated" but its been like this for quite a while.
iand was in touch with the Brits last year -
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51373
Maybe contact him and see if he got the plans
Thanks for your responses everybody. I think it is as Hiko says. Horses for courses.
Paul's post with those comparative speeds is very interesting and like he says, there is little to pick between a Mini and a class5 if both are on wheel barrow wheels.
I think Farnborough Beach, Yeppoon would be a great place for a Class5 but to make it worth while I think the bigger wheels would be a good idea.
You have been there Paul so what would be your take on that?
Some fact , Having sat and watched the Nationals , there were 2 yachts that lapped the mini fleet in nearly every race , so where does all this put them Puts some pressure on some figures 
now that the season has finished I will try and get the plans up on here for my class5 ,mini and wheel construction
cheers
aus230
Puts some pressure on some figures
Puts some pressure on some figures 
