Forums > Land Yacht Sailing General

Handicapping?

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Created by Gizmo > 9 months ago, 31 Oct 2013
Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
31 Oct 2013 9:16PM
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On a recent meeting of some fellow land sailors the conversation subject came up of Handicapping of yachts, I've been involved in water sailing for many years where handicapping is routinely used successfully between yachts and even different classes of sailing as a single fleet.

Could it be used for land sailing????

What are the advantages, well the handicap system favors improving sailors rather than just the front runners, so a beginner could actually win races within a week or so because they would be learning at a faster rate than someone thats been in the sport for many years.
It would also level out any differences between a sleek top of the range yacht and an old style tube design.

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
31 Oct 2013 7:17PM
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the sandgropers use handicapping for all there club88 events.

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
31 Oct 2013 9:49PM
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How does the Club 88 system work?

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
31 Oct 2013 11:22PM
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There are two methods that I have sailed there . In the class5 it has been on time with groups setting of at different times . Slowest first then mid field and then the fastest yachts(I like this system best) The club88 system has 3 markers about 50m apart some were on the course. Slowest yachts go around the first mark. Midfield around the second mark and fastest around the last mark for each lap of the race.(I personally don't like this system as you may pass a yacht and then find them in front again on the next lap which is quite demoralising. I would rather a yacht start half a lap in front and may never catch them but if I did I would only have to pass them once)

On the right side of the pic below shows the 3 marker system

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
1 Nov 2013 9:11AM
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Should have added that I am in favour of a handicap system for some races and it has the effect of encouraging new sailors as they get more chance of getting into the top places.

beachball57
SA, 538 posts
1 Nov 2013 1:43PM
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when I use to race speed boats at the north arm in Gilman we all started of on a time handicap we would watch the time clock and when it reached our handicap time we could start, of course it was a running start with the idea that you hit the start line right on your particular start time,, the slower boats starting first the quicker boats starting after, that system seemed to work for speed boat racing, it still odes they still use the time method, I can see why it wouldn't work for land yachts,,maybe not a running start but start then 30 seconds or what ever time is agreed on the next lot start and so on.........just a thought

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
1 Nov 2013 11:16AM
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All our class5 and club88 are standing starts and it works well.

wokelliott
WA, 179 posts
1 Nov 2013 1:50PM
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When club racing our radio controlled yachts we have a handicap timed start which works great. All start on scratch for the first race, the winner is then penalised a start time of 30 seconds, 2nd place receives 20 seconds 3rd gets 10 seconds, the remainder start on scratch for the next race. Same penalties apply and add to their respective penalty times for following races. At the end of a days sailing (about 8 races) we have the field all bunched up and fighting for a win as they go over the line. The ultimate day winner is the yacht with the highest penalty points. This allows the slowest yachts into a position where they can go home triumphant as the day champ. We prefer this system as otherwise the same guy wins every race every day and the rest of us loose interest...W

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
1 Nov 2013 7:47PM
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so/ what were you proposing gizmo?
the annoying thing Ive found with handicapping is just when its working fine then the wind picks up and the most handicapped sailors are sitting there watching a race that they dont have a hope in.
Ive also seen races where being held back at the start gives you a nice clear area to wind up the yacht and cut through the feild that is working to windward

BenBoulder
WA, 261 posts
1 Nov 2013 9:02PM
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I don't like handicap idea as it doesn't provide me the motivation grow and develop as a land yacht pilot designer, builder and racer. If you want to even the field buy a blokart that way you all have the same gear and the only variable is the pilot.
In your fleet you know who the top guys are and who is at your level (yacht design and pilot skill). I know my limitations and try to work within them.
I believe the three biggest variables of a yacht's performance are 1)pilot 2)mast & 3)sail
If you put a top pilot into an average yacht they will still perform to the maximum of the yachts potential.
I know my production blokart can't point upwind like a performance blokart or a mini therefore I try and get the best starts I can.
If you got a beginner thinking they will win every race they may need a reality check.
Instead of a handicap system have a grading system as in motocross e.g A, B and C grade.


aus230
WA, 1659 posts
2 Nov 2013 12:07AM
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Wish everyone thought like you Ben but unfortunately some sailors take a long time to get the drift of sailing and tend to drop out because they are always at the back of the field, A grading system would be difficult due the time factor(one afternoon each week) so we would not get much sailing in also there are only a small amount of yachts sailing and to break them up into groups would make the fields to small. I have no idea what is best all I know is I like to develop my yacht to see how much I can get out of it. I just enjoy sailing whatever the setup.

BenBoulder
WA, 261 posts
2 Nov 2013 8:21PM
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I agree Vic if you have small fleets grading would be difficult. I guess its up to the individual pilot or clubs to strengthen their fleets by sharing information and coaching their members.

I also think it depends on the class of yacht being raced. I bought my blokart before I had even seen a mini or class 5 yacht. The blokart is great for racing as everyone has the same gear. If you like the design and building go into a development class like the mini.

Looking at a developmental dinghy sailing class like the International moth You wouldn't buy an 1970's model scow type moth dinghy for $400 and expect it to beat the latest and greatest hydro-foiling moth $25000.

I was lucky when I first started land yachting I had some dinghy/catamaran racing experience and after one intensive tuition from the land sailing guru I was starting to make my blokart perform.

There is a lot more to winning a race than having the fastest/ best designed yacht. I look at racing with a holistic approach that can be broken down into three broad categories.
1) Yacht Speed- equipment(yacht design), rig set-up, trim, technique and personal fitness
2) Yacht Handling- standard manoeuvres, mark rounding manoeuvres, starting manoeuvres, close company manoeuvres
3) Tactics- weather, strategy, tactics and rules

In your local fleets you know the guys and their particular strengths/weaknesses so if individuals and clubs want to improve they will by sharing, coaching and mentoring.

The winners need people to beat too and I can only imagine it would get boring at the top with no competition.

Who shares wins.

BenBoulder







landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
3 Nov 2013 8:30PM
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some good points Ben, i often sail aroundthinking , that bloke never rounds the mark properly, or that bloke always tacks too early,that fella needs to check his bearings more often, that blokes sailing with flat tyres AGAIN.
why dont people check their batten tension , wash their sheet rope........................
and thats why they dont win

BenBoulder
WA, 261 posts
3 Nov 2013 9:21PM
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You are right Paul, its all the details that add up to the overall result.

kiwi307
488 posts
28 Nov 2013 3:45PM
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Noted yacht designer Herreshof stated that handicaps are to allow someone who could never otherwise win to achieve a result they had not earned, or words to that effect



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"Handicapping?" started by Gizmo