Forums > Land Yacht Sailing General

wind gradient

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Created by US772 > 9 months ago, 6 Apr 2013
US772
332 posts
6 Apr 2013 3:51PM
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I was wondering if anyone has studied the effect of wind gradient for landsailing here?

gibberjoe
SA, 956 posts
6 Apr 2013 10:39PM
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dont quite know what you mean "studied" we have a dare wind indicator

whatyamaycallit here in Australia, someone with a camera maybe could post

a coloured photo........."studied",,,,indeed!!!

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
7 Apr 2013 8:15AM
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US772 said...

I was wondering if anyone has studied the effect of wind gradient for landsailing here?


I think the simple answer will be NO....

Its one of those things land sailors can't do much about (unlike kiters).
To some degree the evolution of rig design has been limited by a few unchangeable things, In Class5 the mast height / length is regulated in the class rules, and in the Mini5.6 the mast configuration has tended to be composite sailboard masts (preloved / used)
Rigs for landyachts over the years have changed, in the early days the 'Manta' low aspect style was the normal, this tended to change to a slightly higher aspect ratio as yacht performance increased, but on the other side to that is at some very windy locations people tended to stay with the lower aspect ratio for yacht stability.
Some people have lowered yacht chassis to get the CG low to the ground for stability yet by doing this it sort of makes the yacht site specific.
I was recently contacted re; the advantage of making a yacht with 50mm ground clearance.... that might suit a very smooth salt lake but on a coastal beach the yacht would be useless with clumps of seaweed that wash in.

US772
332 posts
7 Apr 2013 7:50AM
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I guess I should clarify more of what I'm after. I read a blog about wind surfing sail design and comment about twist on an AC72. Apparently there have been many studies mostly by water sailers about wind gradient. (that's the info I want to see)The important part of it is matching the apparent wind angles at the top of the sail as well as the bottom ie twist. To figure out twist you must first know how well your boat performs upwind and down wind in different wind strengths, what speeds it is capable of and what angles you are sailing to the wind. If you have that and know how much faster its blowing at the top of the sail as opposed to the bottom of the sail you can figure it out. Just wondering if someone here has any info on wind gradient studies. If found a few on the net but they are not exactly the same. Then again maybe wind gradient isn't the same all the time.
Thanks John

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
7 Apr 2013 9:37AM
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This might be a starting point.
cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/209338/news/Ad_aerodynamics/index.htm

There are many articles there that might be of interest, there are several books written by Czeslaw Marchaj.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_Marchaj

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
7 Apr 2013 2:14PM
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The AC72 is quite a radical beast, with a mast height of 40m (compared to 4-5m for a land yacht) and sail size of the AC72 of approx 580sqm (compared to 5sqm for a landyacht).



From the info I get is that 'wind gradient' is a sort of logarithmic scale depending on many factors including air temp, air density, surface resistance etc.

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
8 Apr 2013 8:44PM
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so is what your asking what shape/size should my sail be in class X for some particular windstrength for a particular surface type given my body weight is Z with a centre of body mass at my belly button( whichever side it has flopped to) and I am running a.oo x b wheels with hookworm tyres...............
basically we could discuss it at length but youll need to supply a few parameters for those of us who have been studying at length . we are certainly well beyond chopped up windsurfer sails at this point

US772
332 posts
8 Apr 2013 11:49PM
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Just trying to figure out if some twist is desirable for land sailing like it is for water sailing. For what I've researched 2 to 4 degrees of twist seem to be a good thing depending on how tall a rig is. I did some testing yesterday by taping my wind gauge on the top of my 520 mast looking at it with binoculars and lowering it at about a meter to see the difference. Most of the charts I've seen indicate the wind changes around 1.15 to 1.3 from those levels depending on how hard the wind is blowing. So if its blowing 10 mph at a meter it could be blowing 11.5 to 13 mph at 6 meters up. Add your point of sail and boat speed and you have twist from bottom to top. You can find twist by drawing vectors with the numbers and points of sail.


landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
9 Apr 2013 8:11PM
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US772 said...
Just trying to figure out if some twist is desirable for land sailing like it is for water sailing


now i see what your asking. before we look at boffin pics what we need to consider is
class
bodyweight and centre of mass
surface type
surface condition
wind strength
wind direction for the particular location( why did we want more sail area in 25knts in rada Tilly?)
wheel and tyre combination.
why not give us a set of parameters for what you sail on and your personal configuration and we can go from there

kiwi307
488 posts
22 Apr 2013 6:39AM
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Simple answer, yes we did quite a bit of study in the early 80s relating to landyachts, along with the Auckland university windtunnel (who designed much of the rigs with Tom Schnakenberg).
I no longer have the figures, but it was quite clear that for landyachts, even with a 5 meter mast there is some consideration should be given.
Controlling the twist is something else again with a soft rig, and the big heads as used on windsurfers IMHO give too much for the speeds landyachts achieve. Likewise the simple triangles as many US yachts used to use don't give enough.
I do have some data and non tech discussions from Cogito the C Class cat which are interesting, but I do not think over relevant.

US772
332 posts
22 Apr 2013 11:27AM
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kiwi307 said...
Simple answer, yes we did quite a bit of study in the early 80s relating to landyachts, along with the Auckland university windtunnel (who designed much of the rigs with Tom Schnakenberg).
I no longer have the figures, but it was quite clear that for landyachts, even with a 5 meter mast there is some consideration should be given.
Controlling the twist is something else again with a soft rig, and the big heads as used on windsurfers IMHO give too much for the speeds landyachts achieve. Likewise the simple triangles as many US yachts used to use don't give enough.
I do have some data and non tech discussions from Cogito the C Class cat which are interesting, but I do not think over relevant.


The more I've dug into this the more I think your right about being very relevant at higher speeds.

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
22 Apr 2013 8:23PM
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US772 said...
kiwi307 said...
Simple answer, yes we did quite a bit of study in the early 80s relating to landyachts, along with the Auckland university windtunnel (who designed much of the rigs with Tom Schnakenberg).
I no longer have the figures, but it was quite clear that for landyachts, even with a 5 meter mast there is some consideration should be given.
Controlling the twist is something else again with a soft rig, and the big heads as used on windsurfers IMHO give too much for the speeds landyachts achieve. Likewise the simple triangles as many US yachts used to use don't give enough.
I do have some data and non tech discussions from Cogito the C Class cat which are interesting, but I do not think over relevant.


The more I've dug into this the more I think your right about being very relevant at higher speeds.


keep in mind that the big head with twist will often give you the sail area you need on a crowded small course or softer beach with dirty air coming over the dunes,buildings.



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"wind gradient" started by US772