1st Boat ? Help? Suggestions? Tophat v Sonata

Howd'y

Getting into sailing, have crewed prior on Syd Harbour for a couple seasons...a few years ago.
Now doing the text book thing, Com Crew Course, followed by Coastal Skipper. And will get my name down to crew some off shore stuff (anyone?)

Looking for a weekender for the wife and I (she is also doing Skipper, however no interest in racing), to eventually gain enough experience to go cruising (Nth Queensland, Caribbean, Med on Charters or eventually our larger boat)

Thinking about a 1/2 to full keel for stability, and safety while kooking it around in Pittwater, Sydney Harbour or maybe some little coastal runs north.

Since we do many sports that involve getting to a patch of sand (Kitesurfing/surfing/SUP etc) do we get some sort of retractable keel so we can get in closer to the shore or generally in shallower waters..or is the weight and stability of a piece of lead the key for learning and safety???

Boats on the list in order of preference are as follows:

Tophat Mark 3 25'
Sonata 25'
Duncanson 25 & Adams 26
or chip in a little more and get a Roberts Adventure 25-26'

Question with the Tophat though, the traveller is on top of the cockpit hatch, which is great for access around the cockpit, however what are the disadvantages? Why don't others do this? Some are right in the way of the tiller...and others are right in the entrance to the cabin...anyone care to explain?

Older inboard diesels vs newer outboards?

Inboard - Older..expensive..stinky...economical, has alternator, not in the way?
Outboard - Fuel, easy to service, out in the weather

Any advise, suggestions on any of above or any other info gladly welcome

And/or any other recommendations for 25 - 30 foot boats in the $10-20K Bracket

Cheers

Cabron

Hi Cabron,

You are comparing Apples with Oranges.

The Tophat, while being a slower boat than the Sonata will be the choice if "offshore" work is being considered.

Advanyages of theTophat = Fixed keel with higher ballast ratio, inboard engine (diesel) with prop deeper in the water, a heavier boat deesigned for the offshore enviroment.

The Sonata = trailable - this may seem to be a plus, but if you have no room to store it and use it frequently. You have the inconvenience of having to rig it each trip, fight the bun fight on busy weekends at the launching ramp, a vehicle big enough to tow it. The Sonata will be fast for its size and a lot more tender than the Tophat. Offshore the outboard engine will be as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike, with the prop coming out of the water on any reasonable size swell.

Not sure what your budget is but another proven performer to consider is the Compass 28.

Good luck with your quest and I hope that this as been of some help and I have not upset anyone.

Dusty

Thanks for some ideas,

Yes understand about apple v oranges with Keel v Centerboard boats.

The Compass v Tophat seems comparative though, only length (and space), and probably more suitable for where we want to end up.

Few stupid questions, basically in helping to decide which way to go

How much $$ approx to replace Standing Rigging (Stays/Fitting), Running Rigging( Ropes etc) for a Tophat, and rough price for basic Headsail / Mainsail to suit.

I am fairly handy at repairing / replacing stuff so labor would be covered, however is it better to buy a with the rigging replaced 4-5years old (Is that still old??), or unknown age, and good chance that it needs replacing.

Another, Is a 1975-1980's boat just too old?? And I'm going to be forever feeding money into it..? Yes, have been told that boats are the endless pit of money consumer's...however is there a point where it is just not worth buying a cheap old boat.

Does the glass start to deteriorate, or slowly leak? Unless the entire contents has been replaced, surely at a point, you just say "To Old".. Only comparing...I am the same age as these boats, and i'm slowing signs of being worn out and half broken. And I haven't been floating around in salt water for the last 35-40 years !!! Jokes

Again, thanks for any advice / suggestions

G'day Cabron,

This info may be biased, as I own a Top Hat. have a look at dicksimonyachts.com/ there you will find drawings, photos, and lots of information about the boats and their history, as well as some voyages undertaken, including world circumnavigations.

Your questions seem like the very same ones I had three years ago when I started looking. What can I get for my money, how much for rigging, sails, engine, anti-foul etc etc.

Standing rigging quotes will vary, I've just had one quoted for approx $2500. Of course, it will all depend on chain plates, sheaves etc.

Whilst I would have initially preferred an inboard Compass, budget restrained me to $10k, which meant a Top Hat, Tasman 26, Marauder, Cole 23, Roberts 25, and most likely an outboard. Reading through the myriad of forums, Boatpoint, Yoti, Trading Post and Ebay, I finally had a look at a few boats in my range. Marauder, poor interior room. Cole 23, great interior, not really all weather coastal. Tasman 26, lovely lines, but not a great interior. At that stage, all the good boats were somewhere around the $15 - $25k mark, and still outside the budget for a "want to go sailing now" boat. We fell across "Dulcamara" in the trading post. The owners had bought already and had no luck selling her, becaus she didn't have a seperate head, but a v-berth pottie and she was a little tired looking. Because we still weren't sure about how much sailing we would actually do, we decided that even if we had to sell her again soon, we wouldn't lose too much.
I then joined this site, and the Top Hat site and have done way more sailing than I may have if I had a trailer boat, and have met some pretty fine people along the way.

Having recently done a solo return from Sydney to Lake Macquarie, I can say for that kind of day/overnight or short term cruising the outboard is fine and cheap to run if you get a 4 stroke, using a bit over a litre per hour.



PM me if you want more details, but you could do a lot worse than a Top Hat.

Michael

Cabron,so much experience here.look take step one deside trailerable or fix keel .All aspects cost of marina and dry working are cost. T/S how heavy you can handle ,storage room, sheltered
ramp. Than work around type. Just remarks just tested SOnata 8m,fine boat fix keel fast around 10k price set up for racing, but Interior not much.

@ Cabron

You are getting some really top and qualified advice here. These guys above are "in the game" and playing it.

As Ramona keeps saying, "It is a buyers' market.". What with the GFC etc, there is blood in the water and many former silver tails are rationalising their finances and selling off their toys.

If you find a boat of interest, a good qualifier after initial inspection is to require the seller takes you out for a sail.

If the seller agrees to that you will learn a bit about that boat at the least.

If the seller does not agree to that and you still think it is the right boat for you, offer half the ask.

The seller might get upset by that but it is certainly "no skin off your nose".

Whenever I am selling a car, boat, house or whatever, I always "present it".

If a seller does not do that, he is disrespecting potential buyers and deserves treatment in kind by way of low price offers to purchase.

@ MichaelR:- So glad to hear you are enjoying "Dulcamara" so much. I remember your posts when you had not long bought her a couple of years ago. Cheers Mate.

Cisco, cheers to you too mate. Yes, Dulcamara is far from the perfect boat, but perfect for the money I have to spend. So far, she has cost me about $20k, and that includes two annual slip/antifoul, some running rig, timber and tinkering, as well as the $240 per month mooring I paid for 18 months.

I'm not afraid to take her to sea on my own, or with company, weather permitting and we have a heap of fun inside as well with the Top Hat locals around the Hawkesbury area.

Great advice Cisco - hope Bundy is treating you well!

Cabron, my final advice is what I give to people who want to buy a motorcycle, because I have a long colorful history with bikes.
Look at as many boats as possible on the net, then make as many appointments as you can to visit your short list. When you go aboard you will get an immediate feeling of like or dislike, and you should sit with that feeling for a while whilst exploring the boat. This will include how the owner makes you feel, if you get the owner out, instead of a broker. Once you've finished your initial look at a boat, write down how it made you feel, or commit it to memory. When you look at another boat, recall how the previous boats made you feel.
At some point whilst looking at all the boats, one of them will speak to you, and providing it is sound, that is the one to focus on. Then the fun starts.

Happy to take you for a sail on Dulcamara if you want to see how they go.

Cheers,
Michael

Had a look at a Tophat yesterday, Condition was Ok/Good. Minor fixes needed here and there, some worry about surface cracking/crazing in the fiberglass in areas were people have walked...is this normal, and or easy to fix. You can see the cracks and hear it squish under our feet...only a couple small spots, and around the areas where the handrail reach the deck.

However all Rigging and engine have zero replacement history, and the owner has had for 10 years. Could be substantial cost coming up in the future...

I liked the layout etc, however I felt it may be a tad small in living/sleeping space for us. I would never even fit in the head. Maybe the version without the in closed head maybe more open.
I realise small boats have minimal space, basically comparing it to our SWB VW camper van (with floaties !!) that we often spend a week or 2 away in. Be fine for a weekender, however eventually we would like to be able to spend a week or two on it. The 28 Compass appears to have a much wider beam, and a heap more space for storage/living/sleeping. Will check one out on Saturday.

As with anything, you keep talking yourself into something bigger and better.....sometimes, reality hits, and this is only what you really need and afford, however as suggested above, I need to climb on many yachts and see how they feel.
As for how they feel sailing, as my reference points are vague or non-existing, not sure i could tell what I like or dislike about the handling under sail etc.

Again, appreciating the advise/suggestions, please keep them coming.

Cabron

Checked out the Compass 28.....Nice Boat, what I like mostly is the usable space both inside and outside.

Relying on you guy's to tell me their a strong solid boat, and sail well. Cockpit is roomy for a 28 footer, the traveler on the roof helps as well.
Clean deck, none of what I have seen on the TopHats and others in the same price range where the cracking around the stanchions and other pressure areas, the inside is a seller. The Galley is great how it converts, the table is actually usable, and sleep-able when converted. I fit in the head, and could actually fit in the V berth......I don't want to rush, however think I may have found a reasonably clean boat...

Been searching thousands of boats online around the budget range and above, and keep coming back to the layout of the Compass, Would be amazing to get a 30+ footer, however I don't see it as practical as yet...as it also seems 30' is where the price takes a step change up...even for a vintage vessel...


Next Advice -
If I was to get a survey on the boat, does anyone know any local good surveyor around Nth beaches Sydney? Guessing approx Price $500 for Pre-purchase inspection?

What should I expect to pay for the slip?

Believe it will require an Anti-fool and Paint if it was to come out of the water and all is well....Guessing $1k-$1.2K for Anti, what about a repaint as well?? Or take it up to Pittwater and do it myself??

Any suggestions of decent anti foul / painting places?

Boat is currently in Syd Harbor at a marina, if survey goes well, I would be looking for a swing mooring in Pittwater, anyone know of anything going?

Cheers

Cabron

Not sure a timber boat is the best option for a first time yachtie. They have wonderful character and this one could be in good nick, but maintenance over time can be a killer. They are usually kept by enthusiasts, not the average sailor. Selling them is very difficult which is why they are cheap.

MichaeL is spot on re moorings. Salt Pan waiting list is about 3 months. I work part time and might be able to assist if you want another eye look over a boat. Send me a private message with a mobile. Cheers

I was the person who originally suggested the Compass 28.

The good points for this particular yacht are:-

Very strong association, this keeps the boats resale value up. Also plenty of advice available on maintenance, sailing, etc with the annual regatta/get together.

They are in the smaller range for fittings, etc and therefore cheap to maintain. My guess is most of them where purchased as a hull and deck, then fitted out by keen sailors.

They are "over built" but be aware, that they are renown for having osmosis. No big deal, by now, most of them would have been fixed and it's not a "huge" job to do yourself if that's your thing. Don't know of any yacht that has sunk because it has a few osmosis bubbles in it?

The 28 outsails the 29.

I personally would not waste 1K on a survey. Take a friend who is "boat wise" or employ a shipwright for an hour or two. Preferably the first option.

Look carefully ate the deck, they can have "soft" spots around the stanchions and look for any leaky windows.

There is a Compass Owners" web site. Lot's of info there.

Geoff Raebel runs the site, is a powerhouse of info and produces a "must have" book for anyone looking at buying a yacht in this size group.

His book is entitled "Australia Yachtsman" An updated guide for cruising yacht buyers and owners.

It basically is an owners manual for Compass Yachts, but ther brands are covered as well.

Good luck.

Dusty

kb53, that's a pretty cynical outlook on owning a boat. For some, like me, it's not about what I can afford. I could probably afford a decent 40 footer, and put it in a pen, but because I choose to put my money into property I choose to have a less expensive boat, both to purchase and maintain.

I too surf, ride motorcycles and spend an inordinate amount of money on both, so it's all about the balance.

Cabron, what's the news, what did you end up with?

Sorry about lack of reply, been too busy enjoying our "New To me" Compass 28....

Ended up getting a survey done...cash job...so a lot cheaper ...Good Report, No Osmosis or Osmosis repair's evident, only minor things you would expect on an older boat.

Got it Anti Fouled while out of water, I have done a couple things to make it mine, like new carpet, seal kit in head, sanded back and oiled hand rail's, new halyard and a couple other small items.....helps to get to know the boat as you end up sticking your head in every nook and cranny

Been out each weekend up / down the Harbor, a peek outside the Heads and a few anchor / long lunches, and generally playing around and enjoying learning the ropes on this solid boat.

Only negative thing I would say about the boat is REVERSE.....I basically plan that the boat does not have reverse, or should I say...ZERO STEERING IN REVERSE...it is really really bad, and almost caught me out when I over shot the mark coming into the mooring.

A note to KB53....sorry to hear you didn't enjoy your boat, while no there is not many spots in Sydney that you can sail up to and surf/kite (besides Palmy, and Box Head - maybe) There are many spots around the world, starting in the Caribbean, Galapagos Islands, French Polynesia, Somoa, Tonga, Fiji and a couple other places that I have in mind....however 1 has to learn to sail and get some experience prior to this little adventure...hence.......

As for spending my $$ on kite gear, as a team rider I get my kite gear for next to nothing so have the ability to put my $$ into other pursuits, and yes, myself and my wife do venture on many surf trips...apart from regular trips up/down coast and to Fiji, prior to that was some cool waves we found on the Kenya coast, Akitaki Lagoon in the Cooks for kiting was cool too...and off to the Sub continent in March for a bit of exploring

Along with our motorbikes, mtn bikes, camping van, yacht, surf boards, kites, and adding to the collection SUP's and kayak's.....I don't mind dodging excessive fee's from marinas and playing with my other toys !!

Good Wind's

Cabron

I'm jealous.

I guess my boating was always on a budget. It was based on Lake Macquarie with a rare trip to Pittwater and Port Stephens. I found the local area had limited cruising potential. Once you'd done it a couple of times it was really the same same.

If you have the money why not buy the bigger boat now - do a cruise to port Stephen's and back for a shake down cruise - and head off into the Pacific.

If you like each other's company you could do it in a Tophat but you may need to leave most of the toys at home. The kites will fit.