I?m just interested in finding out what self steering wind vanes people have.
Currently I?m doing some research to work out the best type for me and my
clansman.
I am on a budget as spending $5K on a product that is worth ? of my boat value would be hard to justify.
I have found the following websites/products via google so far?
- southatlantic.com.ar ~$2400
- selfsteering.com (norvane) ~$2000
- mrvane.com (Y&B standard) ~$1900
And I have emailed a couple of other companies for quotes.
Appreciate any guidance or any past experiences.
Mate, You have a Clansman which is one of the sweetest 30 footers a person could own which is also a full keel yacht that trimmed properly will sail itself.
They have a beautiful transom so why would you ugly it up with expensive and unnecessary so called "self steering contraptions". None of them have such a sensitive and accurate a control servo as your brain.
Nothing gives me more pleasure than helming my yacht in a lively breeze. Is there something else you would rather be doing like reading a book or watching a video or something??
If you are a single hander and need an "extra hand" while you are trimming, cooking or using the head, I suggest a tiller mate as available from Autohelm or Simrad which have "auto tacking" capabilities which is "very handy". Some of them have "sail to wind" capabilities if fed wind direction info or even steer to plot with GPS info feed.
When it is dead calm with no wind and you are motoring they really prove their worth which is about $1,000 brand new.
Well I'm a windvane fan and my yacht spends about 95% of its time under a windvane. There is no helmsman on this planet that can steer as well as a good vane. Even on short tacks I engage the vane. I have used it in the river too but there are too many variables there. When I go fishing and hove too I use the gear to hold the boat in a stalled position just off the wind.
The Clansman will be an easy boat to sail with a windvane.
There was a Monitor on eBay recently for $2500 but did not get a bid. Monitors are excellent a long with several other well known ones. Mate just bought an old Fleming off eBay for $500. I built my windvane, its a replica of a Monitor but with better more modern stuff that you can do when you make your own. Modern materials for bearings and gears are now readily available. This is the second one I have built and I call it the Mark 2 mod 5 as you can make improvements all the time. Probably cost me close to $200 as I did not worry about costs. The labour is the killer, there are many, many hours of work involved. Mines mostly Stainless with a mixture of Delrin and ss ball bearings, Delrin gears.
I'm part of a windvane forum that you can find here, I'm Ramona on that forum as well, photos of the new one too although there have been changes since that was posted.
cruisenews.net
Manufacturers of the major builders on that forum too.
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Hey Cisco,
I'm glad you approve of the boat. I believe it was actually you that persuaded me to make the purchase of the Clansman when I was hunting a couple of months ago.
In regards to my reasoning for wind vanes is a bit of an insurance reason, as I plan to be doing a significant amount of solo sailing and I liked the idea of a self steering source that didn?t rely on battery power. I already have an electric tiller autohelm (unknown brand) that I haven?t worked out yet. It came with the boat and didn?t include instructions or a control system hmmm?
Ramona,
Homemade windvanes look good, but I don?t think I?m creative enough to execute something like that. I will keep an eye on ebay.
On another unrelated topic does anyone know of where I could get some solar panel mounts? Are there electrolysis issues going from aluminium to stainless steel??
Use plastic guard rail mounts between the SS and aluminium. Check out the photo above.
I agree with Cisco on the Clansman. I looked at and sailed on a Clansman, racing at RANSA, before I bought my boat and they are fantastic sailing yachts, but very very wet to windward in a chop.
I disagree with Cisco on vane steering so much it hurts. For anything but coastal or inshore passages a vane is outstanding. I have a Fleming vane on my S&S34 and it is so brilliant experienced sailors reckon it is unbelievable.
With a relative wind speed over 8-10 kts my vane can steer the boat to within a degree or two. I can line it up on a feature and move the heading with the vane adjustment by as small an increment as you can detect.
The 34 isn't a brilliant boat downwind but the vane can hold it so accurately very close to dead downwind there is no hint of a gybe. It seems to anticipate the wind changes, and it does it for hours with no food or drink or sleeps or electricity. I did this in January running before 15-25kts about 5 degrees off dead downwind. A helmsman may do this for a while but not without stress and fatigue. We went for 8 hours.
Resetting it after a course change at night in rough conditions is a handful but becomes easier with experience,
I also have a tiller pilot when the wind is too light and for inshore.
While Ramona uses his vane in local conditions, and so do I occasionally for short trips, you can't leave the vane to steer on its own near hazards for any length of time. It isn't uncommon to experience 90 degree wind changes over a 15-30 minute period which can be a problem if the vane is in charge and North Head is a mile away.
If you intend a long passage get a vane. The smaller Flemings will do a Clansman. I paid $2,000 for mine, a Fleming 400, off an eBay ad. They come up occasionally, also look in the Afloat magazine and other forums.
While a vane offshore is obviously an advantage they are still perfect for inshore use. I sail solo 99% of the time and have no qualms about raising and lowering a spinnaker while the vane steers. Reefing is easy too, the boat will alter course when the main is eased and topping lift raised but instantly returns to course when the main is retrimmed. Sailing up along the beach here with a gusty Westerlie the boat seems to change course erratically but when I hand steered I found I could do no better and put the vane back on. Sailing through the fishing boats its easy to position yourself to keep a good look out. The one downside of a vane is its hard not to sit there and just watch it all day!
The secret to easy operation is having the adjustment for the vane angle back to your your normal seating position so you can see where your going and hold the tiller and cleat off the control lines. I use a timing belt on mine.
This is a video of my first unit. Its based on a Walt Murray design which uses a Z crank. New one is much different and uses a bevel gear instead of the Z crank. I have plenty of good quality video of my new unit but just too lazy to upload.
Damn that's looking like an old video now! should do something about updating that.
I love the fish flapping around in the bucket Ramona.
I am going to keep my eyes out for a good priced vane and work out how to setup my electric tiller pilot.
Ramona, I've often wondered if a bevel geared wind vane is a significantly better product than the Z crank. I see you've built both ... have you noticed any difference in their operation?
SirJman, I agree with Ramona ... keep an eye out for a second hand Fleming. These things are almost a work of art. Could be your most cost effective option. I think the older Flemings come in a smaller and larger model (Major and Minor?). There was a smaller Fleming that was for sale in the "Afloat" magazine about 3 mths ago for I think $700 and they do come up on ebay and Gumtree. I think the older Flemings came in two sizes (Major & Minor?), with the smaller one being appropriate for a Clansman (weight on ends or lack thereof is important). I ended up buying a Windpilot Pacific to take advantage the then high $AU ... but the $AU has fallen a lot since then so there's no huge $ advantage now in buying a Windpilot over a new Fleming.
Given the type of keel and style of boat you may get away with a Windpilot Pacific Light but it I suspect they will still be more than a second hand Fleming if you are prepared wait for one to come up (and they do). These things I think are only about 12kgs so a fair bit lighter than say on Fleming. I think it'd be a goer on a Clansman even though the specs are for a lighter boat. The one that is popular with the Jester sailors is the UK SeaFeather, but just looked at his site and I see he's selling his business. I think he built a quality product. He'd take orders in the autumn and build them over the winter. I did get a quote off him at one stage and his price was very reasonable but he couldn't get his head around not charging me Euro VAT so I didn't take it further.
Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll keep looking for a second hand one and hopefully something comes up before I slip my boat in a couple of months.
If you here of anything or know someone just pm me some details.
Just returned from Mackay after a pleasant sail from Sydney and enjoying a catch up with Cisco whilst in Bundaberg. Hope you can join us next year mate. Now for the question. How is a wind vane best fitted to a boat with a spade rudder? Any experiences?
Select to expand quoteHaveFun said..
Just returned from Mackay after a pleasant sail from Sydney and enjoying a catch up with Cisco whilst in Bundaberg. Hope you can join us next year mate. Now for the question. How is a wind vane best fitted to a boat with a spade rudder? Any experiences?
If it is a spade that is transom hung, it is a simple matter to fit a trim tab with an extended axle, to the trailing edge of the rudder.
On top of the extended axle, a lever is fitted which has a link bar attached to a lever on a wind vane axle so as to reverse the direction of thrust. The wind vane is coaxial with the rudder.
The wind vane needs to be able to be free wheeled or fixed to it's axle so that while trimming and setting course, the vane finds wind direction and once course is set, it is clamped or otherwise fixed into the system and thereby takes over the steering of the yacht.
Sensitivity can be adjusted with counterbalances on the wind vane and variable points on the length of the lever/s.
That is the best way I can describe it in English without a drawing. For yachts with vertical transom hung rudders with or without a skeg, this is the simplest wind vane self steering system you could have.
From Wikipedia:-
Another version of wind vane self steering on sail boats is known as the vertical axis vane and usually, because of the inferior power it has to its Servo Pendulum cousins it makes use of a trim tab hung off the rudder to control the course of the boat. The vane spins at right angles to the ground and can lock to the trim tab in any desired position, as the boat falls off the wind the vane will be turned by the wind and will take the trim tab with it which in turn causes the rudder to move in the opposite direction and thus corrects course. Generally self steering like this, with a trim tab can only be used on boats with transom (or aft hung double enders) rudders as the trim tab needs to be mounted directly to and aft of the rudder to produce the desired effect, and of course has to be controlled even as the rudder swings side to side. This is typically accomplished by use of a slotted bar in which the connection to the vane assembly can slide in as the rudder turns. These self steering systems are generally simpler and are thus easier to set and adjust course as they don't make use of lines controlling the rudder but control it more directly through solid linkages.[2]
The main thing with self steering is that the yacht needs to be trimmed correctly for any wind vane system to work efficiently.
This article can explain better than I.http://www.blueanarchy.org/selfsteering/
According to this poll Hydrovane is a hands down winner.
www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?337924-Poll-Best-Windvane-Self-steering-system
The Hydrovane is more an auxiliary rudder and does depend on the yacht being reasonably accurately trimmed.
www.hydrovane.com/our-product/our-product/
Hydrovanes are about $7000 landed in Australia. They have no power assistance and need large vanes to steer downwind in light conditions.
Stick with a servo pendulum like a Monitor or a Fleming. If you look at a chart of all the manufactured units they use pretty much standard dimensions and ratios, the only variation is sometimes just the bearings used. Even the gears when they are Delrin look like they come from the same catalogue. Old Flemings, Aries cast there own gears.
claverton - The Z crank vane is an easier build and the original Walt Murray design could be built for $20 worth of plumbing pipe[at the time] with just hand tools. Up wind just brilliant, but once past a broad reach they would wander a bit because there is little feedback to the servo. This could be tuned out with a bit of fiddling of the angles of the crank.
Bevel gear models have automatic feedback because of the direct connection with the gears, the gear drives back the servo to the neutral position so there is no over correction so the boat steers straight downwind. Upwind they are the same as a Z crank. The building is more difficult and a metal lathe is pretty much a necessity unless you can shop and buy standard size bearings etc.
My mate bought that Fleming that was on Afloat. Has had to update some bearings and straighten the control rod but is set up ready for a test sail now.
The unit I built is held on the stern to a ss bracket by two bolts. I can hold the whole unit in on hand while bolting it on, probably 10 to 12 kilos.
HaveFun - My rudder is almost a spade rudder, if you mean a transom hung spade then its no different, my gear would fit on a normal transom hung rudder vessel. Search the manufacturers web pages and they will have photos of their products on all sorts of boats. Youtube has hundreds of videos as well.
Thanks Ramona that's interesting ... I wondered whether bevel gears had an advantage and now I know. Your friend I think got a good deal for $500.
Do a search on the guy who put that Currawong vid up and check out his latest vid. I think he might be into metal work as he now has a you beaut door rather than washboards.
Select to expand quoteclaverton said..
Thanks Ramona that's interesting ... I wondered whether bevel gears had an advantage and now I know. Your friend I think got a good deal for $500.
Do a search on the guy who put that Currawong vid up and check out his latest vid. I think he might be into metal work as he now has a you beaut door rather than washboards.
Nice bit of work. I personally prefer the factory job as it keeps the cockpit clear and I like to view the computer screen from my normal seating position. I do have another set the previous owners used on Syd/Hobart races that does not have the heavy top section.
The young bloke who bought the cheap Fleming is also a bit of an artist when it comes to SS work.
Mate was just here who bought that cheap Fleming off eBay/Afloat. Had his first day at sea with it and he is rapped! He has wheel steering too but reckoned it was brilliant. 38 foot Hartley RORC.
For those that are interested, it looks to be that Sea Feather have gone back into production.
www.sea-feather.co.uk/
Got a quote from Sea Feather today for a "Sea Feather Mk5" - The price, excluding the shipping cost is $1945.00 GBP.
This is a bit more than I wanted to spend so I'm going to keep looking.
Ramona, You had me worried there for a sec .... I'm not sure whether or not the the Windpilot Pacific Light uses a Z crank, but the next model up, the Windpilot Pacific uses gears. I unpacked mine and took off that plastic cover to double check
SirJman, come to think of it that Pacific Light that Ramona has linked to might be worth a look at (I'd double check that this unit has and not a Z crank first). You'd need to check if those mounts fit the sheer of a Clansman transom. If not simple matter to get new mounts but it will cost. I don't know about his asking price...
On his website he rates those units up to 2500kg displacement which is a bit smaller than a Clansman. But given the good tracking of the full keel and large rudder of the Clansman you'd think it would steer under its weight (if you know what I mean). Clansman has a bit of overhang on the stern so the lighter 12kg Pacific Light would be an advantage. Pacific is about 18kg's and the smaller Flemings I think are about 20kgs. Monitors etc are a lot heavier than that. Or build one like Ramona's! I think he said he's is under 10kg's.
The pacific light looks like a good simple design. I'm not a big fan of buying stuff from gumtree unless I can pick it up and pay cash in person. I've seen other people burnt from using it.
Ramona I would love a flemming, but unlike Jessica I don't have sponsors who give me free hardware and am trying to set the boat up on a budget.
If I had the tools, workspace and time I would definitely have a crack at making my own, but I don't.
Appreciate you guys looking out for me and all the advice. It is definitely helping with my thought process.
You don't want to buy a second hand one, you don't want to buy a new one because you're not Jessica, and you don't want to have a crack at building one yourself. Doesn't leave many options.
I would suggest a Walt Murray version using plumbing pipe. Use old dinghy gudeons and pintles for pivoting the oar. You will have to use a piece of 1/4 SS rod to bend up for the crank and run it in end plastic pipe fittings with a hole drilled through as bearings. The vane can be made from thin ply or plastic flute sheet or any other light material. The oar blade can be an old dinghy rudder blade, my first was a Flying 11 rudder blade.
Or you can build in plywood and epoxy/cloth or pretty much what ever your handy with. Its one of those projects that costs very little and you can spend some time on it every now and again if you like. Its one of the more satisfying projects you can undertake.
Mate was back here the other day that bought that cheap Fleming. I warned him when he bought it that it will be hard not to get sucked in and spend all day watching it. He took a mate out and reckoned they both could not take their eyes off it!
I have a Windpilot Pacific with wheel drum for sale, excellent condition $2700. 5 year old and little use. In Fremantle if you want to see.
Cheers, Toby.
2nd hand Flemings do come up. I bought mine 2nd hand and it works brilliantly. From my experience wear is minimal and with the Fleming you have an adjustment to reduce play.
I paid $2,000.
