Forums > Stand Up Paddle General

Making the 14' Jav more stable.

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Created by DavidJohn > 9 months ago, 24 Mar 2012
DavidJohn
VIC, 17434 posts
8 Apr 2012 9:53PM
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laceys lane said...

well done, love the underwater shots- from 3 positions. a little bit air bubbling collecting around the back ss pin from the paddle strokes.

any speed difference, did you get your stability.

mate looks like a top class job you did in the making process

cheers


It did work.. Noticeable.. but not by much.. I'm thinking maybe a little too much flex.. and I want the s/s rods evn longer.. I'm getting some 6mm allthread in s/s and I'm going to add another one in between the two.. (making that three) and have them about an inch longer.

Water has very little density close to the surface.. You just have to lift a boat prop up and when it gets 4-6" from the surface it spins up like it's in air.. To get stability grip you need to get past that 4-6" and the fin in that area is not doing much.. The deeper the better but too long will add weight.. increase drag.. and make the board un-paddlable in shallow water.

I'll let you know how my idea works.

DJ

laceys lane
QLD, 19803 posts
8 Apr 2012 10:04PM
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DavidJohn said...

laceys lane said...

well done, love the underwater shots- from 3 positions. a little bit air bubbling collecting around the back ss pin from the paddle strokes.

any speed difference, did you get your stability.

mate looks like a top class job you did in the making process

cheers


It did work.. Noticeable.. but not by much.. I'm thinking maybe a little too much flex.. and I want the s/s rods evn longer.. I'm getting some 6mm allthread in s/s and I'm going to add another one in between the two.. (making that three) and have them about an inch longer.

Water has very little density close to the surface.. You just have to lift a boat prop up and when it gets 4-6" from the surface it spins up like it's in air.. To get stability grip you need to get past that 4-6" and the fin in that area is not doing much.. The deeper the better but too long will add weight.. increase drag.. and make the board un-paddlable in shallow water.

I'll let you know how my idea works.

DJ



dj, when you flexed the fin, i reckon i could see some movement in the fin box. it might pay to pack the fin mount base with some masking tape to get it a really tight fit.

also, i wonder if the where the fin has been cut ie where the bolts are fitted into, could be shaped off a bit later then your happy with it. it might lessen the drag a bit

DavidJohn
VIC, 17434 posts
8 Apr 2012 10:13PM
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You're right.. There is some play in the box.. and I wil pack it next time to try and less'n the slop.. and that bit of flex might even be doing some good.. and it didn't feel any slower.

I think tapeing the fin box will do more good than shaping those threads.. maybe i'll do both.

DJ

jt737
QLD, 418 posts
8 Apr 2012 11:31PM
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What about putting in a FCS insert and use a smaller forward / mid board fixed fin like a small dagger board.
Another option would be a few FCS inserts on the rails near the tail at a 45 degree angle to the fin?
Your fin is by lengthening it is just giving a greater fulcrum effect, but the drag from the bolts must be more than just making a new longer wider fin from a cast or cut down from an old windsurferer dagger board.

Here's a post on making a fin I liked:

http://www.grainsurf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=570

DavidJohn
VIC, 17434 posts
9 Apr 2012 12:16AM
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Thanks for your ideas and the link.. Your idea might work better if it was tracking that I'm after but I'm only after 'stability' to help with board tippyness.

IMO two, three or four shorter fins with a total fin area of let's say.. 40 sq inches.. would have no where near the same effect on stability as one fin that's 10" long and 4" wide even tough they have exactly the same total fin area.. The fin that gets down past that 4-6" of surface water will have much better stability because it's reaching the denser water.

DJ

RJK
QLD, 622 posts
9 Apr 2012 12:11PM
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DavidJohn said...

laceys lane said...

well done, love the underwater shots- from 3 positions. a little bit air bubbling collecting around the back ss pin from the paddle strokes.

any speed difference, did you get your stability.

mate looks like a top class job you did in the making process

cheers


It did work.. Noticeable.. but not by much.. I'm thinking maybe a little too much flex.. and I want the s/s rods evn longer.. I'm getting some 6mm allthread in s/s and I'm going to add another one in between the two.. (making that three) and have them about an inch longer.

Water has very little density close to the surface.. You just have to lift a boat prop up and when it gets 4-6" from the surface it spins up like it's in air.. To get stability grip you need to get past that 4-6" and the fin in that area is not doing much.. The deeper the better but too long will add weight.. increase drag.. and make the board un-paddlable in shallow water.

I'll let you know how my idea works.

DJ



the density of water is as good as constant (changes by less than 10g/m^3) for the first 2m from the surface. pressure differences are the reason it spins close to the surface.

DavidJohn
VIC, 17434 posts
9 Apr 2012 12:22PM
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Thanks.. So it's pressure and not density.. I remember reading about it once.. There is a depth that is close to the surface where the pressure sudddenly changes and it's not just a gradual change from the surface of the water to the deepest depth in the water.. There's a word for that point where the 'pressure' changes.. Any idea what that is.. or what depth that is?

DJ

laceys lane
QLD, 19803 posts
9 Apr 2012 12:28PM
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dj, you need to set up some mini hydraulics. drop the fin down deeper and then pull it up in the shallows

RJK
QLD, 622 posts
9 Apr 2012 12:42PM
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Every 10m of water is approx 1 ATM in pressure. That is why divers regard the first ten meters as the most dangerous, biggest change in pressure. Ie it doubles from surface

DavidJohn
VIC, 17434 posts
9 Apr 2012 12:57PM
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RJK said...

Every 10m of water is approx 1 ATM in pressure. That is why divers regard the first ten meters as the most dangerous, biggest change in pressure. Ie it doubles from surface


Thanks.. but I'm sure there's something else going on that happens only a few inches down.. I can't remember where I read all about this but it was very interesting and it explains why boat propellers need to be past a certain depth and why short windsurfing fins spin out so easy.... Maybe I dreamt it..

DJ

DavidJohn
VIC, 17434 posts
9 Apr 2012 1:16PM
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laceys lane said...

dj, you need to set up some mini hydraulics. drop the fin down deeper and then pull it up in the shallows


Tank testing.. ..

I'm also wondering if our foils are right for our very slow paddling speeds (not surfing or catching runners) .. I'm pretty sure our fins should be thicker.. High speed fins are thiner with the thickest point being further back.

DJ

blueseven
QLD, 59 posts
9 Apr 2012 2:03PM
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DavidJohn said...

nev said...

What about a retractable centre board DJ? get the Jig saw out . I have paddled an old D2 wind surfer a fair bit on flat water ( super round long skinny thing) Its about 24 inches wide and very unstable at rest but fine when moving. if I am turning around or boat wake is comming I just give it a bit of centre board (its fully retractable) and its more stable then a 30 inch flat bottom.
I recon this concept could work for flat water race boards allowing them to get the width right down as you only need the stability of wide boards when starting off or turning.
The board makers would hate it though as its a bit of mucking about to make a good retractable centreboard.

Nev


Now you're talking.. Great idea..

DJ




Has anyone investigated a "ballasted fin". Radio control sailboat type keel with weight in a torpedo at the lowest point, might work. I would think it would help with stability and wouldn't slow the board down too much.

DavidJohn
VIC, 17434 posts
9 Apr 2012 2:07PM
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blueseven said...

Has anyone investigated a "ballasted fin". Radio control sailboat type keel with weight in a torpedo at the lowest point, might work. I would think it would help with stability and wouldn't slow the board down too much.


No.. But that's an interesting idea..

Boats have a separate fin (rudder) for direction.. and that ballasted fin is there not so much for stability but for keeping the boat from laying over due to wind in the sail.

DJ

DavidJohn
VIC, 17434 posts
9 Apr 2012 2:32PM
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That would be interesting to try.

Maybe the foil on that thing is close to what our fins should be even tough you would think that being thick would mean lots of drag and slow.

DJ

DavidJohn
VIC, 17434 posts
11 Apr 2012 4:40PM
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My fin mod #2.

DJ







cRAZY Canuk
NSW, 2528 posts
11 Apr 2012 9:34PM
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Starting to look pretty similar to the slalom fin I mod'd up a while back.

PeterP
825 posts
11 Apr 2012 8:52PM
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I'd imagine sticking the fin all the way forward in the box - or even adding a box further forward would reduce the roll as well....but then you'd lose some of the straight tracking.

mikeman
QLD, 692 posts
12 Apr 2012 11:37AM
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Your new modification looks a lot like a rudder that I used to have in my DC14, pictured below.

I really liked the feel of this rudder and it made a significant difference to the stability. I ended up swapping it for a shorter wider one as it was too long - it always used to hit the bottom. As a rudder only has a single rod this made to concept too weak. Something was bound to break. You may find you will end up with the same problem with your modified fin


DavidJohn
VIC, 17434 posts
13 Apr 2012 3:00AM
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My fin is pretty solid now and should be fine.. A can imagine a fin like that being used as a rudder might be a bit risky.

I tested my fin out today.. and also plucked out a few of those nasty bad starfish.

The new fin worked great.. It made a big difference.. It was 11 1/2" long.. Now it's 14 1/2" long..

DJ

stimo
WA, 874 posts
13 Apr 2012 2:04AM
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Nice DJ was just waiting for the 1.15 am sea breeze report up date and jumped in at end of all that fin stuff man got to get rid of those star fish there bad news nice steady vid shots good stuff .



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"Making the 14' Jav more stable." started by DavidJohn