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QLD Marathon Vid and pics

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Created by paul.j > 9 months ago, 31 Aug 2014
paul.j
QLD, 3345 posts
31 Aug 2014 3:59PM
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Link is here... I spent the race on my jetski filming the action. Hope you enjoy. I missed the very very end as the speed limit in the creek is slow and i didn't want to throw wake for the leading guys.



Jacko

paul.j
QLD, 3345 posts
31 Aug 2014 4:28PM
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Also link to over 150 pics from the race. www.facebook.com/paul.jackson.54

PTWoody
VIC, 3982 posts
31 Aug 2014 4:44PM
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Do we know who won? Men's, Women's, Over 40 and Over 50?


PS. Appreciate the video, thanks Jacko. Conditions looked difficult but at least not as brutal as the BoP.

paul.j
QLD, 3345 posts
31 Aug 2014 4:50PM
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To be honast I missed the end of the race for most people, karla won the girls but the numbers were really dissapointing from what I seen!! Funny how in a growing sport this event seems to decrease each year. From what I remember when this event started with SUP there was well over 100 people in the race now about half that!! So whats wrong? I think 3 girl's raced and maybe 40 guys.

Adapt
QLD, 723 posts
31 Aug 2014 6:13PM
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While it's all good to compete with the best, I think people don't like losing all the time. Could be wrong but it takes the thirst away from competing when you know your only competing for a minor placing

husq2100
QLD, 2031 posts
31 Aug 2014 6:43PM
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Select to expand quote
Adapt said..
While it's all good to compete with the best, I think people don't like losing all the time. Could be wrong but it takes the thirst away from competing when you know your only competing for a minor placing


so all the hype of "Stoke" of the sport and building its future is BS.... who would have thought hey, and here I was thinking that all the different divisons that punters keep asking for was to make the sport better, when in fact it was just so they could podium.

Hollow lot us SUPrs

paul.j
QLD, 3345 posts
31 Aug 2014 7:02PM
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Yeah I see your point but if this was the case then no event would really ever work as only one person can ever really win. I do all the events I do for the fun and enjoyment I get from competing not for money and not to win everytime . I think the fun side is something that is under rated from event organizers and something that is quite easy to bring in to events.

Look this event seemed pretty well run from what I seen but if I was running a event that numbers were falling every year then I would be having a good look at what is going wrong. In a sport that is growing like ours we should be having huge events by now now decreasing to where the numbers are so low that sponsors must be thinking is it worth investing money in.

I could see some good things this event has done and alot they could very easily do better. The way things are going we will have no events left in QLD and we have to ask ourselves why as we have one of the biggest paddling population in Australia.

Here are a few points good and bad.

GOOD: The pre set up was alway set up and ready to go.
The maps and rules were published nice and early.

BAD: Info during the event and updates sucked, how hard is it to have one person do what I did with Facebook updates and pics. What I did was super easy and I am no pro with a camera or Facebook but I managed to update the whole race take 150 pics and film the whole race and have it all online within 2 hours after the race as well as work in the shop so just imagine what someone could do if they knew what they were doing.

The timing of the events really needs to be worked on for example the race today started at 10am now when ever do we get good conditions at 10am? About 12:30pm today the wind came in and was about 15 knots from the SE which would have been perfect!!



Most people I spoke to did not even know this event was on so maybe they are not advertising hard enough in the right spots?

enough from me though I'm keen to hear from others , maybe im wrong and this was a huge success which is cool. I didn't do this event by the way not because I didn't want to but between a small injury and just needing a rest from racing for a few weeks before we go and do 4 weeks back to back races.

AndyR
QLD, 1344 posts
31 Aug 2014 7:56PM
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Jacko do you know the numbers of the shorter 8k social race? Good turn out or not?
I was bummed work comitments kept me away this weekend as I was keen to do the 18k marathon but I reckon the average punter that is just to far in any conditions for people to enjoy, maybe if downwind conditions were on more would bother to enter but that's always going to be a last minute decision which means only locals as people ant traveling for a "I'll enter if it's DW but not bother if it's a 20k grind"

The BOP conditions Friday was ob only for the very experienced. Which was epic but maybe for numbers they should of had a flat water tech course in the creek that the average joe wouldn't struggle with.. And what's with running it on a Friday fair enough show day for the GC people but what about the rest of the state.

I think they are on the money with trying to promote and include social distances in the state and national titles but they didn't really do much with making people aware they are on.. Besides a couple posts on here where else would u even know it's on??
There's now a number of clubs in QLD, why aren't QLD surfing contacting the clubs getting all the email addresses, addresses etc and sending out info trying to promote it..

laceys lane
QLD, 19803 posts
31 Aug 2014 8:01PM
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numbers were down. I've a few thoughts but they aren't popular
.bop or technical. thumping shore break 3 paddlers washed down the beach friday. people will have a go, but nobody wants to look like a fool and bop racing can do that real easy in its current form. turning buoys half in the shore break adds to that too. next point- board are now running over $3000 - that's not chicken feed. damaged boards suck, never the same again and if the price of boards don't drop enough as soon as they are out of the shop- ripped out fin boxes and massive dings reduce your boards worth by more again. personally I can barely stay out of trouble just bop training. everyone get damaged boards even at training. now if you look at those bop racing most are sponsored or getting boards cheap. general paddlers aren't cash cows

then there's the risk of injury. sa insurance truthfully is worth jack as most policys are- I can't afford injury and work down time and I suppose a few others might be in the same boat. something will happen one day

inflatables is the answer along with better courses and more flexibility in where events are run.


easy with the macho man caper lads- something has to change. who knows there could even be a few laughs with the inflates


long course and short course open racing. a mate texted me after this race and said the winds up- 15 knots se- ideal.

I said Ive just done a no wind race. he said why wouldn't they hold race in the afternoon when the wind is normally up!!!!!

so a dw to balinga and paddle back to snapper then the alley- not really something to look forward too. sw winds today at race time and forecasted- Burleigh to seaway ish would have been the best on the coast by far. the hard core racer doesn't care but there is only so many of them


we have 32 kms of coasline yet the qld titles has to finish at Currumbin. south to north course options are very very limited with a alley finish


I know the reasons but the cart is getting put ahead of the horse.

more flexibility in schedules, locations and run the races on the best possible courses in the best possible conditions. kind of make them enjoyable

personally I love dw ing but I've just about come to the conclusion racing and dwing belongs in the too hard basket. maybe we need freestyle clubs


I know probably pissing off a few, but there is definitely a lack of bums on seats so to speak

Squeeky
QLD, 60 posts
31 Aug 2014 8:09PM
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I agree with you Jacko.
On surfing QLD site it says follow us on facebook but they don't post any information for the event on there.
So how hard is it for one of their staff to get on facebook and say today we are at ??? On Friday Kelly posted that they were starting at Johnston St Nth Kirra at 10am. I was going to go and watch the surfing on Saturday but didn't know where they were competing at. Today I went to Rainbow not knowing what time the start was and managed to see the start of both races.

PTWoody
VIC, 3982 posts
31 Aug 2014 8:12PM
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I might get howled down for this but I think the reason for poor turnout at state titles (same happens in Victoria) is very simple. The elite level of the sport has lost contact with the wider SUP community - the weekend warriors and amateur enthusiasts. Events like these run by Surfing Queensland and Surfing Victoria carry little attraction for the majority of competitors. The distances are unappealing and the conditions are often intimidating. Some of you may think that's soft but it's a fact and if you don't like it, good luck racing among yourselves. I don't think we all necessarily have to be in with a chance to win a trophy to encourage us to enter but we absolutely do need to enjoy the experience and not be humiliated by conditions beyond our ability simply to validate someone else's ego when they win against a large field. There is also the matter of cost. Our state titles are quite expensive to enter so for those who are simply making up the numbers with virtually no chance of achieving a podium or qualifying for the state team, the so-called glory of competing against the best in the state does not justify the expense. Especially when we can enter club events and compete against the same people over a more user friendly course and distance on a regular basis over the Summer. Oh, and by the way, holding state titles in the middle of Winter when everyone has let their fitness fall away - whoever thought that was a good idea?

Now to the issue of Women's events. I'm going to go even further out onto a limb here and I fully expect to offend. Before I do so, let me start by saying I acknowledge that Karla, Angie and any number of other women could kick my arse any day of the week. They can paddle much faster and much further than me, and in much more difficult conditions, there's no disputing that. However, if we are wondering why there were only 3 women in QLD state titles (and by the way, just one in Vicco), then I think the factors I mention above are all in play, only amplified substantially. Outside of the absolute elite women, expecting emerging enthusiastic females to agree to match the distances and conditions that some of the top men in the world are struggling with is quite simply insane. Women's tennis is not played over 5 sets. I suggest Women's SUP races would benefit from more appropriate limits to attract a larger field. Again, I accept that Anglie, Karla, Annabel and the rest are all perfectly capable of matching it with the best of the men. But if they are happy to compete in fields of 3 (or one) in their own events, then once again I say good luck with that, and I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.

Squeeky
QLD, 60 posts
31 Aug 2014 8:15PM
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Andy there were 15 competitors in the short course race.

SupaTrooper
QLD, 243 posts
31 Aug 2014 9:14PM
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Here's 2 cents worth- Whilst there must be a course that will test the "pros" to determine who will move onto representative selection, these competitions must have a strong focus on the amature/ weekend warrior class as they are the main financial contributors to the sport via the purchase of boards, equipment and participation at the local level. This should be reflected in the type of course chosen , restrictions on board size etc. Forget them and the sport will be forgotten.

PTSUP
QLD, 218 posts
31 Aug 2014 9:50PM
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There are just a few processes that need to implemented and they seem fairly simple.

1.Standardised race boards..Nothing flash, very stable,paddle great, surf functionally in / out of the break for BOPs and most important,when you are done racing paddle out to a bombie and surf it conventionally.surf your local beach on the fat days. Much better option than inflatables and the high tech $3000 models for average paddlers.Standardised dimensions and weight as per SLSC race boards .An elite class may still remain in place with the high end boards,world class athletes and prize money.

2.Junior development..Any sport with no junior development pathway,no appeal to the kids and only 3 staters at a State title under 20 years of age is going to find growth challenging.

Economically, a 3 day event with 4 paid staff and associated running costs has a break even point with income from entry fees and sponsors.If numbers get below 50 starters the break even point would not be possible.

Ricey1
QLD, 44 posts
31 Aug 2014 9:53PM
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I am an average Joe paddler and feel that the 8km social race caters to people like me perfectly. I enjoy racing but within my limits and don't aspire to mix it with the pro's on super long courses. So, I think they catered for the weekend warrior well I believe. I just don't think they publicised/communicated it very well which others have mentioned on this thread.


The other thing for me was that the conditions during the week put me in 2 minds about entering as I am not super confident getting out through bigger surf so didn't want the embarrassment of not being able to get to the start line! Having to register by Wed meant I wasn't prepared to fork out race fee plus SQ membership and then not race because conditions were outside my skill level. I have since found out I could have registered later and when I saw conditions today, regretted not entering. If the option had been better known I probably would gave.

The other thing I believe will help get the weekend warriors out there is some encouragement in the communications, here on facebook, etc, etc. Even keeping people updated with lists if entrants or just numbers of entries in different events....for the average Joe like me, there is 'safety in numbers' when you are not as confident as the guns in the elite races

teatrea
QLD, 4177 posts
31 Aug 2014 10:36PM
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I would say the cost the no 1 factor.

Adapt
QLD, 723 posts
31 Aug 2014 11:18PM
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Select to expand quote
PTWoody said...
I might get howled down for this but I think the reason for poor turnout at state titles (same happens in Victoria) is very simple. The elite level of the sport has lost contact with the wider SUP community - the weekend warriors and amateur enthusiasts. Events like these run by Surfing Queensland and Surfing Victoria carry little attraction for the majority of competitors. The distances are unappealing and the conditions are often intimidating. Some of you may think that's soft but it's a fact and if you don't like it, good luck racing among yourselves. I don't think we all necessarily have to be in with a chance to win a trophy to encourage us to enter but we absolutely do need to enjoy the experience and not be humiliated by conditions beyond our ability simply to validate someone else's ego when they win against a large field. There is also the matter of cost. Our state titles are quite expensive to enter so for those who are simply making up the numbers with virtually no chance of achieving a podium or qualifying for the state team, the so-called glory of competing against the best in the state does not justify the expense. Especially when we can enter club events and compete against the same people over a more user friendly course and distance on a regular basis over the Summer. Oh, and by the way, holding state titles in the middle of Winter when everyone has let their fitness fall away - whoever thought that was a good idea?

Now to the issue of Women's events. I'm going to go even further out onto a limb here and I fully expect to offend. Before I do so, let me start by saying I acknowledge that Karla, Angie and any number of other women could kick my arse any day of the week. They can paddle much faster and much further than me, and in much more difficult conditions, there's no disputing that. However, if we are wondering why there were only 3 women in QLD state titles (and by the way, just one in Vicco), then I think the factors I mention above are all in play, only amplified substantially. Outside of the absolute elite women, expecting emerging enthusiastic females to agree to match the distances and conditions that some of the top men in the world are struggling with is quite simply insane. Women's tennis is not played over 5 sets. I suggest Women's SUP races would benefit from more appropriate limits to attract a larger field. Again, I accept that Anglie, Karla, Annabel and the rest are all perfectly capable of matching it with the best of the men. But if they are happy to compete in fields of 3 (or one) in their own events, then once again I say good luck with that, and I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.

+1 anyone want to add to this or I'm sure it's the same/similar comments made about last years event. Definitely the gap gets bigger, but there will eventually be no sport without the little people

surf4fun
WA, 1313 posts
31 Aug 2014 9:32PM
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Lacey - I don't think inflatables are the way, to me the safety factor is completely eradicated by the lack of handling. All you have to do is watch the Paddle to Battle MS videos from the last couple of years and even in the nads of the elites there are nose dives a plenty, tails bogging, think Toby got wailed in the head by a paddle and the list goes on. Inflatables definitely have pros like the price and increased durability..

PT - your not something with the ladies but to compound it even more, didn't the ladies have to compete on 12'6s at The Gorge while the guys were on 14's? Doesn't that just exacerbate the problem????

laceys lane
QLD, 19803 posts
1 Sep 2014 5:39AM
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one thing with putting bop race on in decent surf or more difficult conditions is paddlers are getting their boards swept away from under their feet- even very good paddlers.

those of us that paddle know how hard it is but joe average and surfie joe stopping to have a look just thinks its a joke

its very hard to sell that concept to new paddlers, sponsors, public and media when it looks a circus of gumbies-

PeterP
849 posts
1 Sep 2014 4:04AM
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We're examining the same concerns in South Africa - paddling long distances on a SUP is hard work and anything over 10km becomes almost ultra distance in running terms, so as a consequence we run our selection races on 7-10km courses. That may not prep our athletes in the best possible way for the ISA Worlds but the three selected paddlers will have to make that up in training.

We have what we now term a Social Class (previously novice - but the term social class allows for even experienced weekend warriors to come give it a bash). Social races are between 1.5 and 3km and they are growing in participation. We've had a couple of in-outs in surf and they have had mixed reception - inland guys refused to enter, some people got hurt and one or two people had a ball. We'll probably be doing technical sprint course on flatwater in future instead.

I think the BOP is going to suffer big time this year if there is any type of surf for the exact reasons listed above, high risk of bodily or expensive equipment damage - Doheny was gentle rollers that most could handle - crunchy waves are not. My prediction is they will also see a drop in attendance.

I think SUP still has a big challenge in selling itself as a fitness endeavour - there are few sports that match it for cardio and allround body work-out with such limited risk of impact injuries. Thats what our race events should be promoting, look at cycling and running, 20-30,000 people sign up for these things and I've yet to see a runner with a smile on his face.....

Great discussion - no easy answers......

Macaha
QLD, 21900 posts
1 Sep 2014 9:26AM
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From an outsiders perspective, I'm sure I read all the above about a year ago,so this tells me sup events are not moving forward,possibly why the decline in numbers. From my very limited experience I have, we have not heard from anyone who competed in this event? One thing I will add about the elite comments made,if your not training on the water and training on land daily your never going to make an elite athlete in this sup world,so compete for the fun of it,set your goals to be the first non elite to finish that is a win in my book.These comments are not ment to rock the boat or stir the pot,just my view.

teatrea
QLD, 4177 posts
1 Sep 2014 9:33AM
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How many people really want to paddle 18k , or paddle in 4ft surf? Throw in some flat water races , short and sweet. Ill bet the dash for cash was popular , relay races would be popular and even handicap races. You just have to widen your vision and look out side the square a bit.

Piros
QLD, 6999 posts
1 Sep 2014 9:38AM
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Some good points above and here is one more. In Qld at least the sport has split between races and surfers , no racers compete in surfing and visa versa. So straight away you halve the competitors in all events. (except for the girls they do both)

I was one of the few surfers at the Bop race on Saturday but didn't compete as it was a brutal course and I had to back up the next day to compete in the over 40's & 50's surfing (plus I would have had to borrow a board). Pete Dorries was the only person I know that competed in all three disciplines (big effort) he actually took out the over 40's surfing but he was hurting from the Bop and he had to pull out of the marathon.

These are my suggestions:-

* As PT mentioned shorten the racing (including Bop) to bring in more competitors (go back to long format at the Aussies)
* Supply some boards so people like myself can enter and have a go (I also like Laceys inflatable idea)
* Don't split the events hold some surfing heats in the morning and race from lunch time on , keep all the competitors together.
* Hold the events in a more hi traffic area like Surfers Paradise , Broadbeach Kurrawa or even the Spit (give the event exposure)
* Give a way free beer bring back bikini parades and advertise the event .

supsurfers
QLD, 171 posts
1 Sep 2014 10:15AM
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couple of points:

Need to have different colour shirts for each age group so you know who you are racing against:
Needs to be a big effort to grow Junior section.
Tim competed over 3 days i think 3rd in Technical 4th in Surf 7th in Marathon all at 17 years old.
There are other juniors who would have competed but if they have to race against open it is very difficult.
34 klms of beach front we must be able to race a straight event.
Disappointing with Technical race being great to watch with like 20 people watching what are we doing to get people to watch and media.
Why is there not a flat water race for state titles? A lot of people just don't like surf!
Coverage very poor as Jacko mentions somebody on ski doing FB updates and for Technical and Surf one web cam could cover this for people to watch.
Just points..
And with only 1 women in open I think racing the marathon is very poor and needs to be looked at.
Positive: great effort by all that raced and completed all events...




paul.j
QLD, 3345 posts
1 Sep 2014 10:19AM
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I think it's time to split the surfing and racing, they could be he at two different times of year.

Having 2 size board classes for the racing for this size event is stupid!! if i ran the event i would look to what most people are paddling in the area when the vent is going to be held and nearly everyone around here has 12'6 and not so many 14 and not that many have both!! having the girls race two size board classes was even stupider!!
I would look to who they are taking advice from as some one is giving some ****ty advice!!

I have said it before but racing upwind SUCKs and is the worst part of our sport so once again why have it in the racing? i am sure the person who won the event is more than capable of paddling upwind at the ISA as to win any event here you have to be a good paddler.

Taking the racing to the people sounds like a great idea BUT it never works!! if we went and raced in surfers do you think anyone would even notice we were there? I went to a event in Chicago that had 10,000 people on the beach and not one person even cared we were there!! What we need is to get the people to come to us like footy where people WANT to go and watch the event. So how do we make it more appealing to watch that is the question?

Inflatables can be part of the answer maybe not top end pro racing but to build the Armature racing up foresure could work.

Piros
QLD, 6999 posts
1 Sep 2014 11:19AM
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" if we went and raced in surfers do you think anyone would even notice"

You obviously haven’t been to town lately Jacko. The Surfers Paradise Alliance run major events on the beach every few weeks and draws massive crowds. Splitting the events has it's merits as well one board class. Have a Pro race and different division inflatable races (for non ranked athletes) that will definitely bring the crowds.

SteveM74
QLD, 122 posts
1 Sep 2014 11:54AM
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From a complete newbie to your world of Stand up and now fast becoming something that has given me a new lease on life and a ****e load of interest and a huge buzz.

I am really enjoying the comraderie in the social surfing scene. Everyone appears to be enjoying what they are out there to do ultimately in just having fun.
In the surf on a general day I talk to most other Stand up enthusiest with no apparent barriers or walls up.
On the comp days I have participated in people seem to pair off a little into their social groups however are very approachable.

I competed in the 8 km social marathon. I borrowed a 12'6 BOP board. Had no water for hydration, had my new KeNalu surfing paddle with me and was dragging a 10 leash.
Some how I got a plaque for the open mens under 14 ft division.
I had no clue obviously what I was roped into physically and perhaps to some I just dont have a clue at all.
But hey I had fun and will do it again.

As long as it remains fun I will compete on a social level and perhaps maybe delve into it more when I am eligible for the over 40 's.

From an outsider comments on The tech and distance race competitiors seem to have the similar outlook as pushy riders with their social groups and apparel/ gear bias. Please dont see this as critisism its just what I have observed so far.
I was involved in the game fishing scene and help run a few tournies etc on the GC over 8 years or so in the club.
There was always contention and people who were upset by decisions made by the committee or event hosts. Make the event more social and fun and the people will be more comfortable to play along. There will always be the fire in everyone to want to win but as the old addage goes. It should be the sport that ends up the winner

I guess this was a qualifying event so it goes hand in hand with the competitiveness of the participants and the overall weekend.

You fellas that have been involved in the sport and are making a living off of it need to start a "round table" where you get together to help the event planners detail there weekends and assist in setting courses, distances , groupings what ever it may be.
I am sure they would all be extremely greatful for any input from guys in the hyerachy of the SUP world.

Looking forward to the next swell here on the Goldy so I can stir up some more surfers



PTWoody
VIC, 3982 posts
1 Sep 2014 11:55AM
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Select to expand quote
PeterP said..


I think SUP still has a big challenge in selling itself as a fitness endeavour - there are few sports that match it for cardio and allround body work-out with such limited risk of impact injuries. Thats what our race events should be promoting, look at cycling and running, 20-30,000 people sign up for these things and I've yet to see a runner with a smile on his face.....




Peter, much of what you said is accurate but this part above is absolutely bang on. Marathon running and triathlons are all about participation and challenging yourself to achieve a goal. For whatever reason, SUP races and competitors don't celebrate that aspect in the same way.

I know a bunch of people who train hard and want goals that they can aspire to without having those goals dependent upon whether the conditions on the day suited them or their equipment, or how well a bunch of other people managed to do. In other words, they are not necessarily competitive with others, they want the goal to be internal.

SUP events like these state titles are designed purely to provide a pathway to an international event. In other words, the raison detre' of these events is for the first few across the line to qualify for another event. The events are unashamedly elitist. Asking why participation rates are so low is like wondering why your fuel bill is so high since you bought a Hummer.

If you want mass participation, you need to design the event around the needs of the many ahead of the needs of the few. Or the one.

paul.j
QLD, 3345 posts
1 Sep 2014 12:14PM
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Select to expand quote
Piros said..
" if we went and raced in surfers do you think anyone would even notice"

You obviously haven’t been to town lately Jacko. The Surfers Paradise Alliance run major events on the beach every few weeks and draws massive crowds. Splitting the events has it's merits as well one board class. Have a Pro race and different division inflatable races (for non ranked athletes) that will definitely bring the crowds.


We need a stadium like environment, maybe some one could build us a huge pool to race in? put some seats around it and off we go.

CMC
QLD, 3954 posts
1 Sep 2014 1:07PM
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The answer is pretty simple to the lack of numbers.

Races like that are not fun... You only need to look at races that have been supported in the past. This used to be The Excel Race. It was huge, it basically was the mother of the baby that became SUP Racing here. 8k's Snapper to Currumbin.. That's it with beer and sausages at the end. Unless you're hardcore you probably won't even make 18k's.

The other race that sticks out was the creek to creek inside Tally Creek or the year before in small conditions Alley to Tally.. Inside was Flatwater, tidal movement and a little challenge in the surf at the other end to mix it up a bit. Even the spectators were entertained by the laps and turning buoy near the finish line.

You want numbers, make races that people don't need to train 6 days per week to compete in...

petedorries
QLD, 700 posts
1 Sep 2014 2:22PM
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Select to expand quote
Piros said..
Some good points above and here is one more. In Qld at least the sport has split between races and surfers , no racers compete in surfing and visa versa. So straight away you halve the competitors in all events. (except for the girls they do both)

I was one of the few surfers at the Bop race on Saturday but didn't compete as it was a brutal course and I had to back up the next day to compete in the over 40's & 50's surfing (plus I would have had to borrow a board). Pete Dorries was the only person I know that competed in all three disciplines (big effort) he actually took out the over 40's surfing but he was hurting from the Bop and he had to pull out of the marathon.



Actually Von Piros, Lincoln got third and Timmy got 4th in the surfing. And there's Jonesy too in the 40's. And Mat Delahunty and Andrew Kerr (2nd in the BOP) all race.
But you are still correct they are in a minority.

And i love your last point. Couldn't agree more.



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"QLD Marathon Vid and pics" started by paul.j