Original question was for the fastest 14' downwind board - I think it will be pretty difficult to determine as one poster pointed out to get comparable conditions and riders swapping out is near impossible.
We've been running the same 10km dwd race since Feb 2010 every Wed in the summer months and have quite a database of results. I've attached the 20 best times - which pretty much without exception were set on one particular night when we had 50knot gusts. Looking through all the other results and with the guys swapping out boards occasionally it's quite clear that the paddler is 95% of the equation as the same guys always rise to the top.
The other main factor, at least on our run, is how windy it is. Every knot of wind increase we have, improves the times.
Certainly on the less windy days, 15-20knots the starboard guys have been very quick, but Chris Bertish seems to have their number irrespective....would be interesting to see what Connor could do here...
I analysed the data from PT Woody and Co's 12-6 race board trial (and Robert Stehlik's similar one).
I am a scientist who spends much of his professional life looking at datasets. There are tell-tale signs if a "fix" is in. It is EXTREMELY difficult to "fix" a trial where you are using multivariate statistics (i.e. where you are considering effects, of things like age, weight etc all at the same time). To do so effectively would take great skill and cunning, and quite a bit of statistical know-how.
I saw nothing at all in the data of either PT Woody's or Robert Stehlik's results to suggest anything except that they had furnished me with the best and most honest data set that they could gather.
It takes a great deal of time and effort to carry out a trial like theirs, and I for one am extremely grateful for their efforts.
The fact that the organisers of these trials willingly made available to a complete outsider (i.e. me), who has no connection whatsover to any brand, or the SUP business in any form, should tell you all you need to know about how strightforward they are being.
It is of course possible that there is a consistent placebo-effect type bias going on in any trial (if for instance all testers believe a certain board to be fastest than the others, it may well end up being). But, I reiterate, this will usually lead to an oddity in the data which might raise suspicions. I saw nothing of that kind in either dataset, and it would be unlikely where some people are paddling their own boards in any case. So my conclusion is that these race-board trials were conducted as honestly and truthfully as any realistically could be - and far more so than one might expect.
If we want to actually know what designs and features work in SUPs, these kind of trials are really the only way for us to know, since the results of any such investigation carried out by SUP board designers/manufacturers are unlikely to be made public.
So, as I say, I am extremely grateful to PT Woody (and Robert) for taking the time to do this, and would caution anyone against unmoderated criticism in case it demotivates them for future trials. In fact, if you read the results of the trials and found it useful, it might be nice if you let the organisers know, because it is a lot of work and effort.
There were some pretty straightforward conclusions from these trials, and some ran counter to what was expected. If you look back, you will find that I asked on the Zone people to write in and predict the rank order of the baords, in terms of speed, before PT Woody made them public.
If you then compare these predictions (made by some pretty knowledgeable people) with the actual results, you can see that we really did not understand a lot before these trials were conducted. We do now know a lot more.
It is always hard to look back and imagine a time when one did not know something. This is why I asked for the forum readers to make these predictions, and several brave souls did dare to put their money where their mouth was. If you are in doubt as to the value of the trials, I suggest you go back to these predictions and see how much we learned from them:
www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=13823.msg123018;topicseen#msg123018
So did this test ever get done? I have a nagging desire to do a broad scale test of 12'6, unlimited and 14' boards. Flatwater of course. I hardly even want to raise my head about this because if it gets going my wife is going to kill me. No matter what a large scale test is going to cost a lot of bucks. I think we spent $10K usd on our first board "showcase".
I do have a device I've built that might make a test more effective--a "pacer" speedometer for SUPs. The data recorder and instrumentation I built for testing paddles has a few extra channels and one is configured for a hall effect sensor. So I just made a long free-spinning shaft from 10mm carbon fiber tube with a prop on one end and a bearing on the other. Just past the bearing is a disk with 26 magnets in its perimeter. Use the hall effect sensor to count how many magnets spin past in 1/30th of a second, and presto, a low speed speedometer that works pretty well as long as I don't fall on it.
I can couple that to the "paddle pod" and simultaneously record how many strokes per minute are made and even an indication of paddle power from the accelerometers, though the data is messy.
I'll work on it. That's what I need, another project. Especially when the wind is hitting 35MPH and all I can see from my window is whitecaps.
Maliko!!
i was thinking this morning the only truly unbiased way to do these tests is some kind of paddling machine.
but there is some many variations to fast board
fastest in glassy, fastest downwind, fastest upwind, fastest downwind in the flats, fastest upwind in the flats, fastest in chop, fastest on a boat wake, fastest and most stable etc.
example. i had 15'3 and dale's got his 15'6. we swapped around a fair bit. they were pretty evenly matched with dale's just on top. but up wind in the flats mine had a slight edge where dales had it downwind in the flats.
but even then with the same dc brand, dale wanted to prove his new board was faster than mine and visa versa.
cheers
Remember that the 12'6 test was a flat water test.
Yes, a Down Wind Test would be interesting too.... You would need a big boat and some buoys. Do rolling starts. Otherwise similar test concept, 6 or so paddlers, and 6-8 Production Boards.
PonoBill said "Did this test ever get done?"
If you are referring to PT Woody's 12-6 race board comparison you can find the full results here:
www.supvic.com/sup-vic-rps-126-race-board-speed-test-results/
The prediction you (PonoBill) made on the Zone, in terms of overall rank order of these boards in total time across all paddlers was:
1. Starboard New AST 25” – 16 kg
2. Fanatic Fly Race Carbon 27” – 12 kg
3. Starboard Race Carbon 27” – 12 kg
4. Naish Javelin Carbon 28” – 13 kg
5. Coreban Alpha Race 29” – 10 kg
6. Fanatic Fly Race Carbon 30” – 13 kg
7. Naish Glide Carbon 30” – 14 kg
8. Starboard Race AST 31” – 17 kg
The ACTUAL results were:
1. Fanatic 27
2. Naish 28
3. SB Race 27
4. Fanatic 30
5. Naish 30
6. SB New 25
7. SB Race 31
8. Coreban Alpha 29
BUT anyone who thinks that this is meaningful MUST look at the whole results, and also bear in mind that, as many have stated here already, different boards are designed for different conditions. I don't believe that there can be such a thing as "the fastest board", only the fastest board in certain conditions (and sometimes with certain riders only). This comparison was conducted in very specific conditions, which might not match your intended use at all.
Two things seem particularly obvious. The first is that is you want to be fast in flat water, you want to be on a displacement-type hull board, in its various guises. Second, there isn't a lot of difference between the top boards under these conditions. But beyond that, the results were much more surprising (to me, at least) when it came to considering things like the weight of the board, board width, rider weight etc. Take a look for yourself.
And before anyone looks at PonoBill's predictions and thinks they could have done better, well unless you ACTUALLY DID put your money where your mouth is and play the game, then the answer is probably NO, you couldn't have. Many didn't. Hindsight is 20/20. Personally, I greatly admire PB for making a prediction, and being THE FIRST to do so. There was a great big silence before he was brave enough to get the ball rolling.
Hats off to you, PB.
It's a great test, done thoroughly.
As said above it really only proves the fastest boards given a certain set of paddlers in a certain set of conditions.
So many examples of boards that prefer certain conditions.
My only criticism and it's not really a big one is familiarization of equipment. Ie, some boards like to paddled more to the front, some more to the back depending upon foil etc. The other would be that the first time you make a kick turn on any board it's kind of sketchy until you feel the grip, tail width, tail thickness etc. Some you go back further for, some you don't. That turn in this test could make or break the result.
As a 12'6 it makes sense as to why to have a turn but I can't help thinking it may have affected the results a little.
Great work.
When your opining statement is "....we aim to put the 14' Starboard, Naish and Fanatics and a couple others through their paces." it says a lot. There are a whole lot of really good boards left out of this list (as was the case with the 12'6" tests). If you want a fair and unbiased test then start out with testing a whole lot more boards in different dw conditions.
There are so many variables involved in downwinding that would make such a test really hard to do properly. These biggest variables would probably be wind/swell conditions and paddler experience/ability.
Getting a bit heated here...
Back to topic, imo it will be virtually impossible to do a test of downwind boards in downwind conditions, because, as someone pointed out, conditions just vary too much from run to run.
Question is whether a flatwater test of downwind boards would make sense - I'd say no if you are looking for fastest downwind board.
How do you then decide? I'd look at race results with a pinch of salt as we all know the paddler has a huge influence.
Here in Cape Town we are fortunate to have a 10km run (we could make it longer) which in summer works 4-5 times per week - so we are able to test different boards and get a feel for what works.
So while it is by no means scientific the following pecking order seems to have been established:
Naish Glide 2012 - seems competitive in all dwd conditions - easy for ave user.
Naish Glide 2011 - holder of fastest course time, seems competitive when winds exceed 25-30knots - easy for ave user
Coreban Alpha Race - really competitive in the right hands especially when winds are lighter - little tricky for heavier or inexperienced riders
Starboard Open Ocean - really competitive across all windstrengths - very easy to use (except climbing back on is reportedly uncomfortable due to sunken deck)
Fanatic Fly - competitive in the right hands, especially in lighter winds - very easy to use.
Naish Glide 17 - doesn't seem to like the short period windswell - the nose is often engaging and causing it to slow down - but it has been ridden for a while and we should maybe stick it out there again.
Corebans new Dart seems like it could be competitive - but it has not won a race yet.
We don't see customs here, but a guy brought the 12'6 RRD the other day - it went really well.
There is a lot about familiarity - you have to get used to your board to get fast - and then I will still maintain that any of the above boards can win races as then guy on top is the most important.
So my conclusion would be, that although some boards may appear faster, familiarity and rider ability is the deciding factor. If you are looking for a board, I'd try and demo a few and see which one you feel the most at home on.
I just wasted a half an hour of my time reading this interesting but pointless article , which is interspersed with whinges and unwarranted critiscisms by grumpy old men with hidden agendas. I bet that over 5kms Danny Ching, Connor Baxter, Chris Bertish , Jamie Mitchell and any other of about a 100 other young professionals would beat the any of the people making comments on here by a kilometer using the slowest of the boards in the trials and the 'speculators' using the quickest (give or take a couple of hundred meters). Apologies to Pono Bill and those others who are obviously great Watermen. It's just too much of ' a how long is a piece of string?' debates. If PT had bodgied the results then a Starby would have occupied all of the places!! It's ludicrous and insulting to insinuate that the results were manufactured!! The only thing I know for a fact is that I would be the slowest on any of those 12'6" or 14 ft boards at the moment. If I trained every day for 6 hours over 6 months, improved my diet and regularly had sessions with a sports psychologist I would improve those results dramatically.
To get indisputable facts about which board has the least drag, best stabilty and optimum wave peircing design, then the paddler needs to be taken out of the equation completely and all tests done in a wave tank. Those results should then tell you which board is quickest. Even those results could be affected by variations in construction by individual shapers on the day. Get over it guy's!!! There is no such thing as the fastest board, only the fastest paddler.
What do they say? Flame suit on.
JonothanC, I was asking, not with brand bias in mind, but board familiarity in mind...just like CMC wrote. Seems some in this test are a bit defensive when asked questions regarding it (thats science mate)...or is it that seabreeze has become a jungle of nut swingers where only "pro" (pro vs con) comments can be made, rather than the open forum its ment to be??? doesnt really help Joe public that way if they cant get an overall view to base judgement on.... So if there was one board that was owned by 2 or more of the test paddlers, it would stand to reason this board would have an advantage simply due to feel. Not to many can jump on a board and get the most out of it (within their own limits).
PeterP do you have any affiliations with Naish, or are you just the DJ of Sth Africa?
I have commercial affiliations with Naish. I could never step into the Crocs of DJ no matter how much I wanted to - his photographic skills and stoke far outshine my feeble attempts...