This was a reply by Blane Chambers on Stand UP Zone , regarding short Sub,s
My personal opinion is if your getting that small why not just prone surf , i find even with my 10.6 i can surf it o.k without a paddle.Horses for courses i guess!
For some Fad, for some Future. Here's what I found with smaller boards. All of them are pretty slow paddlers compared to a well foiled/rockerd 9'+ board. For flat, gutless turns more like skatey flicks, they are really good for that. For full rail carving, carrying lots of speed, devastaing gouges etc, longer boards in the 9'+ range will always be better for that. The reason being width in the tail is usually wider when a board gets shorter especially those over 28" ones. Not saying you can't make a short board rip but I will say without a doubt it's hard to make an average surfer rip a shorter board.
A lot of people may THINK they are ripping these shorter boards but when you look at the commitment on the rail and the speed they carry, well.... Not exactly true carving. Real, full power surfing is the most insane thing to watch and also the most difficult to do. Doing it on really short boards is even harder. The elite guys may be able to surf the narrower, shorter boards well but the average person will be doing a bunch of flip, flap, flat, weak turns. True ripping and performance surfing on any type of board means carrying lots of speed, putting the board on its rail and gouging big, fast, powerful turns. The hardest way to do this is with a really wide tail with a really wide center.
Let's say you narrow out the tail. Well, now comes the stability while standing issue. This is why I say, the surfers with either very light weight OR above average balance and ability will be able to paddle the narrow tailed short board. However, most average people will struggle to the point of misery. If the mid section and tail gets wider the average person becomes more comfortable BUT the surfing starts to suffer because the average person can't carve a real solid turn with the wider boards that are so short. I've seen extreme talented surfers on short SUP boards and their surfing becomes weak and flat. Turns are quick but gutless and flat. So, if true powerful, on rail surfing is what you're after super short is not the answer. If weak, flippy, flappy, type surfing is fine with you then short boards are the answer... I'm working on a few short boards and if I come up with something insane that allows full power surfing with stability you guys will be the first to know.
I guess it comes down to whatever does it for you , short , fat , skinny , cruisy or hard core!Each to their own.
Look all this talk about flippy flappy turns and what not, are what i would say "beuty is in the eye of the beholder" If your doing "flippy flappy " turns but still carrying an incredible amount of speed through all those turns then I think its pretty cool.
) cause your not and it aint gunna happen!
Yep Brooko,if someone throws buckets, I dont care if they are surfin a door.
IMO things are changing fast.
Gregs board looks (to me) to be around the 9'/10' range and he moves it around nicely. Does he need to go smaller I wonder?
Scotty,
You're right about do what you feel. Nothing wrong with short. If you read my post again, I'm not condeming short boards which in my opinion are under 8'. What I'm stating is pretty much the reality of what they are.
Slow paddling boards that the average person will struggle on or wide boards that force your surfing to be flat.. Very difficult to surf fully on rail. Throwing buckets is what's done when surfing on rail and so far I have not seen anyone power surfing and throwing buckets on a 7 something board. What I have seen is guys surfing pretty weak.
Nothing wrong with that and like you said... If it feels good do it. For me as a designer, I am definetly working on shorter boards BUT I think for some it will never be in their future and for others all they will want is a shorter board. My goal is and will always be to make something that can be ripped on rail. Carve the ** out of a wave with power. Any board can go straight well but if we're gonna ride something short, I want something that can destroy sections! Just my personal taste. I mean **, if your gonna ride short you may as well be ripping right?
This is what I meant... So far, those ultra wide, short things out there aren't getting it done. Just a matter of time... Have fun! BC
Yep I am hearing you Blane,
I know what you are mean but the curious side of me wants to try it so I am going to find out the hard way I guess and shape my own. To get a bit of idea about size, I rode a coverted light wind windsurfing board/ stand up board this morning in glassy 1 foot reef break.
It's 7'9 x 30", I am 93 kg (just over 200lbs i think). I managed to get around on it ok. Couldnt stop paddling cos it would start to sink tail first. On the wave it felt looser than anything I have ridden but it did feel a bit wide in the tail (20" wide tail). I could get enough speed to really drive into any turns but I really just wanted to see if I could do it. I am going try shape a 8'3" x 30.75" x 3.75" and see how it goes. (18.5" wide tail).
Let you know how it goes in a couple of months.
Interesting reply from Blane to this post, sub 8'0 are classed as short boards!!
Scotty 19" is ok in the tail I have been riding a short board 6'3 x 25" with an 18" tail round pin for the past 6 years or so. It is my short crawl board for beach breaks up to about 3 foot.
The same tail is what I use on my SUPA boards, so I know it works. I actually scaled up that 6'3 for my first SUP board.
Nearly all my 8'6 SUPA boards have a 19 inch tail for us heavy weights and they carve deep gouges in waves without surfing flat fish tail style surfing.
I use a bit more V than the PSH I have just looked at and heaps more late , last foot of board tail kick, to get you vert. But the front section is a bit flatter than the PSH for trim and glide.
The wide tails of SUPA boards allow for more late tail kick without the drag you would expect from that amount of kick. It is offset by the high lift factor of the wide tail.
My board maker buddy Ron Goddard (has been making boards as long as me) took the wide nosed blue 9'4 for a surf around sept last year and could not believe that the board went sooo good. He and current design theory say that this sort of tail lift will not work, he now knows otherwise. Don't get me wrong it will not work in a standard 12.5" to 14" tail of conventional boards, they are too narrow and don't supply enough lift.
What we are seeing now is a lot like the early to mid seventies when the boys started to bring back the Hawaiian guns, they worked really well in the Islands cause they were sticky narrow pintails but did not go so well in the rest of the world.
Just check out the type of short board now ridden the world over, 6'1" x 18.5" x 2.25", Hawaii included. The new 9'3" Naish I believe is 29.5" wide is that a wide board? It was desined in Hawaii.
Rod
Thanks Rod,
I was thinking about keeping the nose rocker down a bit cos on shorter boards its easy to plant he back foot if its looking like a late take off and your right, it will need all the glide it can get. Also the 7'9" had heaps of tail rocker which did not seem to harm it at all and probally will make up for the width just as you said so I was planning the same.
So I am hoping I am on the money. What you said is pretty much as I see it so I give it a go.
Thanks for the advice.
Regards,
Scotty
So I get what Blane is saying and agree to most aspects of his argument.
But I curious to know how thick people have tried shaping.
Would it be possible to go 8' x 28" but thicker down the center of the board?
Say about 5" or 5.5" thick down the middle with a more curved deck or bigger step rail.
This would give you the volume x narrower width x shorter length.
I'm sure it has been tried but curious to know the outcome. Blane?
Digging this topic. Its very cool when I see others out there expanding and growing or should I say shrinking! One of the very first goals of mine shaping stand ups was to go shorter. I have built boards in the 7' range and so far mine were OK but not able to surf as I would like and more often than not they paddled so poorly when I tried to go narrow. At the same time I found out that 99.5% of my customers were wanting over 8-6 so that's were we spent our time.
After that I have not spent a lot of time on the sub 8' until around 2 months ago I've been playing around with some design stuff and will shape a few out of some extra blanks I have. I'm not all that focused on it because our 8' and over boards are going to be pretty sick and I already know the blend of what the 8' and over length can allow you to get away with paddling and still get a very tight snap and carry more speed into it than a wider, shorter board.
"The new 9'3" Naish I believe is 29.5" wide is that a wide board? It was designed in Hawaii."
The difference between 9-3 and below 8' or even below 8-6 is you have a longer distance to shrink the area of the tail/nose and this includes foil AND width. A board that is say 7-10 or less has a very limited space in which to pull in that tail coming from a dimension of 29.5. You can only get down so far by the time you reach the tip of the tail. Even if you do force that tail narrow, the apex of your turns is still going to be off a very wide point which holds the board back from being able to get up on rail. The longer distance to the tail with the Naish 9-3 doesn't hinder the performance very much even at 29.5 Not sure if this makes sense or not. I'll try and post some pics later on the subject...
"Also the 7'9" had heaps of tail rocker which did not seem to harm it at all and probally will make up for the width just as you said so I was planning the same."Now you're getting close. Adding V and tail rocker will always help a board to turn MORE but not always better. Carrying speed and making the board be able to project down the line are very important. It's the blend of all curves and thickness distribution. How the board foils out into the tail etc. This is where I'm at now on these short boards. Trying different things to blend everything to end up with something that can truely RIP.
"Would it be possible to go 8' x 28" but thicker down the center of the board?
Say about 5" or 5.5" thick down the middle with a more curved deck or bigger step rail. This would give you the volume x narrower width x shorter length."Good stuff here. Again the blend. Having a little more thickness is also a way to keep that heavier guy floating. The thing that is a challenge with sub 8' is having a board that is thicker then trying to foil the tail out thinner and keep a good rocker that will allow speed. Again, short distance to the tail allows for only so much skimming of fat. IMO, thickness in the tail of the short board is not as much of an issue as say a 10' board...
As far as the video of Greg at Makaha. If you ever surf there you will find out shorter is definetly NOT the way to go. Makaha is a wave that favors some length. Way harder to surf than it looks. Anything under 9 feet and you will be miserable trying to carry speed, balance with all the backwash and you won't even be able to catch waves. If you ride a short wide board there your turns will be pathetic. Greg was RIPPING in that clip because he was on a longer board.
All good stuff guys. Keep it up. For me and the direction I'm heading on this subject is this. If we're going to ride such short boards then they better perform better than a longer one that can paddle way better. If we're going to give up paddling and stability then that short board better perform like magic and allow you to shread the living crap out of a wave. The only reason I would go sub 8' is to surf BETTER than we can on longer boards.
Thanks Blane for taking the time to explain yourself.. It all makes very good sense to me.
Scotty I just came across this cool vid of Blane talking about his boards that you may not have seen.
Good work Blane!
Are your boards designed with a specific wave size range in mind?
In my opinion most people riding SUPs in OZ aren't going to ride their board in much over 4ft and more likely 2 to 3ft regularly (I'm not saying people aren't riding big waves, just the majority). And from my experience so far most SUPs in the 9'6" to 10' range don't really start performing well until you get them in 3ft and up waves. Like you said in your little clip above the rocker seems to fit better in the wave once there is enough face to work with.
So horses for courses? Does this mean shorter boards are going to perform better in smaller waves (once shapes/rockers are refined)? Similar to regular surfboards I guess. I rekon this is what we will learn over the next couple of years development. I don't know the answer!
Also in reply to my earlier post, I tried paddling a 30' wide saiboard (with plenty of volume) that had thin rails and super curved deck. It was too tippy so I'm guessing thickness will need to be carried as close to the rails as possible.
For what the average guy is going to want (me included) and spend money on is something that surfs well, with speed etc but comfortable to paddle. For this reason I struggle to see boards going much shorter than 9'0" for a while. I hope I'm wrong as I want to go shorter to blend in more in the lineup, shread more and also it will be easier to travel with!
One of the things to consider when designing any board is whether the rider is a predominantly a front foot surfer or a back foot surfer.
The really smooth surfing styles are mostly front foot surfers, but have the ability to switch between both styles. Most Pro surfers utilise front or back foot surfing for different moves.
For vertical surfing you should be using your back foot for driving the tail lift thru a tighter turn. If your having trouble hitting lips then you need to use more back foot pressure.
For long drawn out turns use your front foot to hold rail pressure on the forward part of the rail. You use your front foot when pumping up your boards to plane speed or for making those long sections.
As far as foiling the board goes I have not paid too much attention to foiling the overall blank thickness, especially since the windsurf days. I use blank thickness to control float and swing weight.
What I do is foil the rails. this is the critical part of your board that allows you to carve turns. A good well foiled thicker rail like on SUPA boards will hold in most conditions and be as loose as you want.
I find that a too thin rail is stiffer and tends to control you, it has not enough float and digs real deep into the water then goes where it wants to.
Board design is all about trial and error, the longer you have been doing it the more mistakes you have made and hopefully the more lessons you have learned.
This is one of the really good things about computer designing boards, it has really freed up the amount of time you can spend on a particular design, fine tuning it on screen and with new curves every time.
Bnaccas the main reason that the 30" wide board was so unstable was because it had a ROLLED deck. The main difference between a rolled deck and a flat deck is the reserve volume that a flat deck allows near the rails. When a rolled deck starts tipping it keeps on going over because their is less resistance there or less float. When a flat deck starts to tip it meets the top edge of the deck which is the thickest part of the board and this slows down the rolling action. Of course you have to have the correct rail angle to allow the rail to engage the wave face adequately.
EPS is my absolute favourite construction medium, not just because you can build lighter boards. An eps block has NO shape other than rectangular. There are no limits as to what you can get out of it, unlike a ready made blank that has prescribed dimensions that you HAVE to work with in.
This is turning into a really first class post, Thanks for starting it up teatrea.
Rod
Rod i found your comment about the rolled deck being a bit more unstable spot on.At the demo day in Currumbin i paddled a few different boards and the Oxbow 9 seemed very tippy compared to the boards of similar size with a flat deck.I was very suprised at how stable the PSH ripper was.Also the 10.6 PSH had much thicker rails than my hand shaped PSH 10.6 , i find with the very thin rails on my board they do catch or bite into the wave face and it then makes it hard to get into a new line.But the upside is it gets some serious speed on bigger waves.
Thanks for the posts all , im learning new stuff all the time.
Cheers
Andrew
Keep it coming boys - great thread!
For me it is all about the versatility of a SUP board. When I go smaller I find myself being drawn into the pack and having to take off closer to the main peak. What I LOVE about my StandUP boards is the ability to sit wide and pick off the bigger sets (right Teatree 
) and link the reforms, so I am in no hurry to go a lot smaller. The ability of the paddle to help crank the board also means I am happy with a slightly longer board that paddles better.
We are all progressing though and it will always be 'Horses for courses', so I say keep experimenting!
We wouldn't be where we are today in standup if the likes of Blane and Dave Parmenter (and the local shapers) hadn't questioned the way things were being done!
Push the envelope!
Andrew.A
AA- it was great to catch a couple of waves with you , my next board will be the ripper i think that,s about as short as i would want to go.I must say i was pretty impressed at how you where handling the 9.6 in those conditions and i dont know if you have surfed the Alley before , but sittting wide was where the best waves where at and you got a few sweet ones for sure.I tried to get out Sunday but just could not get through the shore break , i need to give up the cancer sticks.
IMO, short v long, It all depends on the conditions and breaks you surf. As a newie to SUP I can see that you will alway's find some people ride short and others ride long,as surfers do,I agree horses for courses.IMO, SUP broad designers will follow surfboard designs, as Blane said the ripper short board must fit into the wave,rocker and so on!
But sometimes age and weight have alot to do with peoples choices!
mac
Andys right about sub8'0 and the shorter 8', you have to surf with the pack and that's really hard at the best of times. What I do and have always done with short board surfing is to be the first or at least the earliest surfers on the water. I love surfing my SUB8 but only for the early, then when the crowd arrives I get a longer board. If the crew is the local boys I like to use my 8'6 because they are friendly and every one shares, if there are a lot of visitors a 9'0 is good.
How about we call 8'0 just like a 6'0 and then rationalise board sizes from there. An 8'6 is similar to a 6'6 shorty.
On board thickness I feel that 5" or 125 to 127mm is about as thick as you want to go because the boards centre of gravity gets to high.
I know you can hollow out the decks of boards but not really enough to lower the CG significantly with out loosing the ability to apply enough foot pressure on the rails for proper carving.
I did a lot of work with concave decks in the 80's over in Gerro and finally gave up because of the loss of foot pressure on the rails.
Got to go and finish Brooko's board.
Rod
Awesome... Hanging out to test my new rocket
I was all 3 , now I'm not fat and lazy anymore .
Rod,
I agree, these shorter boards if you are a a surf break that is consistantly breaking the same spot, you will need to get out early as the takeoffs are similar to a short board. i,e late.
Piros,
If you have the resourses to own a extra board, you will be suprised the pleasure it will give you in glassy conditions.
The 7'9" I rode the other day was actually 29 1/3" wide, not 30" as I thought. I have adjusted by board I am designing to 8'3" x 30" x 4". According the the software this board will be around 125 litres in volume. I am 92kg so I hope it floats............
If not I will crack a flash diet till it does. No doubt I could loose some flab anyway.
Regards,
Scott
I was all 3 , now I'm not fat and lazy anymore . So I will be able to tell you all how it goes, and im no light weight at 6 ft 103 kgs
I am surfing the 9 6" really well and can paddle it quite good as well... I am looking forward to getting something smaller to whack around
Select to expand quote
Well mate in a couple of days I will have an 8 4"So I will be able to tell you all how it goes, and im no light weight at 6 ft 103 kgs I am surfing the 9 6" really well and can paddle it quite good as well... I am looking forward to getting something smaller to whack around
Well at 6ft and 103kg you will be the ultimate test for the 8-4 I found when I dopped down 8" from my 9-10 to 9-2 I lost overall performance , I could turn the 9-2 on a dime but thats not how I like to surf , I'm more of a carver.
You are dropping 16" (1'-4") this is going to very interesting but Rod seems to know his stuff and the boards are really well priced and you can obviously surf well.....so hurry up and try the board.
Yes,I second Piros comments,it will be an interesting test
BTW Piros,is that a 10.6 psh under your arm? I had a go at the
demo day and loved it
mac
