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Heavyweights and equipment

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Created by joe windsurf > 9 months ago, 24 Mar 2013
joe windsurf
1480 posts
24 Mar 2013 11:16PM
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Hey:

I keep reading here about heavyweights over 100 kilos using 130 liter boards and 6.5 sails in 16 to 20 knot winds

At about the same weight, i use 160 liter/79 cm board with 8.x sail in those conditions...

What is the difference
Salt Water vs Fresh ??
Skills ? i am only junior intermediate - beach start, harness , planing, but no foot straps nor carve jibes - use rail rather than footstraps = phobia :(

public.bn.files.1drv.com/y4pKh7QwiZu2OvtiY67jYGALKZQnZRsG6i5yL5XOeudOK84RUauDzp1DI5sow2QdE9yT7RRszDumkVB-8cnmEvIe_Y3fbvGQWlpbT1q993KLG1eiOSVP7XPk93nA9e6DbcK40blrRzuZvJS_C8p-czCv2sBfX37cu2G1sZiUxKy6t05b5BaAYH4DkyE6UogLQSw

thanx in advance !!

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
25 Mar 2013 7:41AM
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110-115kg at moment, 16-20 I'd be on 7.2 Racesail and 105L Slalom or 6.2 Power wavesail on 113L Waveboard.

Has lots to do with all you mentioned, fresh water sink more = harder to get going.

Wind density (16-20 isn't always equal depending on where you are/wind direction etc).

Cold, takes your energy really quick & wetsuits weigh a lot when wet.

In our winter or colder southerlies I always take a board size bigger than I think as because it is colder it feels windier (plus here it's a little more gusty).

Effort- gotta pump to get going, even if it's only a little bit.

Not using footstraps is just plain dangerous, they are there for a reason- they give you control over board but also give you leverage against rig so you can use harness properly. Start by putting them in board and as far forward as possible. Open them up so can easily get feet in and out, the slowly close them up a bit and move them first back and then outboard.

6.5 on 130 is bordering unbalanced rig/board combo. Alot of big guys plateau because they fear using small gear- a sinker is a sinker whether you are 60kg or 160kg. You need to take it in steps but using a 110L board in 20 knots is far more fun and easier than using a 130L board. My smallest board is 63L, I can get it going from around 24 knots but it's not something I do. Dave White at 130 odd kg could probably use that size board all day every day in 20 plus.

Planing on different gear is about finding the right balance- yes big boards with lots of float plane early because they can carry lots of sail, provide lots of lift and have small wetted surface (by not sinking rails/deck). But once it's windy you can induce small gear to get going just as early as it is very efficient- you just have to get it up on top of the water first.

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
25 Mar 2013 8:42AM
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Joe, keep doing what you're doing - at 110kgs I enjoyed a sail yesterday on my 116 with a 7.2 (but could've gotten away with my 6.5). A few years back I would've needed much bigger gear. It's all about technique in my opinion, and that will come with more TOW!

A 160 with an 8m sail should get a heavyweight going in less than 16-20kts? Footstraps sound like your next step (which generally come before/during harness stage). Also check your sail rigging, fin size etc. Once you're in your straps, rake your sail back & hang on!

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
25 Mar 2013 9:11AM
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Do you have an anometer or some other way to accurately measure the wind? A 15 knot wind is suprisingly strong and before I bought a windmeter I thought a 15 knot wind was something like 20 knots or more.

Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
25 Mar 2013 6:22AM
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Mobydisc said...
Do you have an anometer or some other way to accurately measure the wind? A 15 knot wind is suprisingly strong and before I bought a windmeter I thought a 15 knot wind was something like 20 knots or more.



This is very true, I have one and other people will be saying, "it must be 40 knots" and I will say, "no, meter says 18-22"

Milsy
NSW, 1176 posts
25 Mar 2013 9:32AM
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hey, good luck with it all big joe,,ha, some sweet tips/points from the other posts,,, in my experience as ive got better the sail size has dropped, ha, im about 70kg, so i probably face different challenges on a windsurfer, from what ive seen theres some sweet advantages in being heavier, great potiental for speed,ha, good luck, and start getting those feet in the straps, just the front one for a while, trying working it in there man, youll be stoked!!!!!!!!!!!!,, the gear youve said you use sounds about right,

Beaglebuddy
1595 posts
25 Mar 2013 6:33AM
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Nothing like being in the harness, both feet in the straps and leaned out over the water.
You can use the footstraps to push down with the toes to help get the board flat on the water so it's just skimming perfectly, the board and rig feels so light.
When you are sailing like this it seems that more of one's bodyweight is not directly on the board.

joe windsurf
1480 posts
25 Mar 2013 6:38AM
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yes it is fresh water

will try some experiments with my Fanatic BEE LTD 124 this season
older fun board that i got for a song ...
have tried it with 8.x, 7-oh and 6.3 :-)

foot straps are there for a reason - yes ...
i still manage to pass people and NOT catapault
my footstraps are NOT out far enough
seems to be a known problem with the AHD FF

and yes , i use a windmeter, trees, whitecaps, internet, etc 4 windspeed
my gadget is on the left:

joe windsurf
1480 posts
25 Mar 2013 11:17AM
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and YES - will get in those footstraps and develop technique to use smaller stuff

barn
WA, 2960 posts
25 Mar 2013 1:40PM
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K Dog
VIC, 1847 posts
25 Mar 2013 6:07PM
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First time - you just have to stick it in there and hold on!

ikw777
QLD, 2995 posts
25 Mar 2013 6:54PM
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The other thing to remember is some people talk a lot of rot about how light a wind they can get going in, or fail to mention they are barely planing, instead giving the impression they are powered up.

Gestalt
QLD, 14394 posts
25 Mar 2013 7:01PM
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ikw777 said...
The other thing to remember is some people talk a lot of rot about how light a wind they can get going in, or fail to mention they are barely planing, instead giving the impression they are powered up.


really,

honestly, as a heavywieght, if you can't get a 6.5m going in 16-20 knots then you are doing something wrong or the sail/board is not suitable for a heavy guy.

joe windsurf
1480 posts
25 Mar 2013 6:45PM
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must be me

at 16 knots i use 8.x
at 20 knots i use 7-oh

perhaps it is just the range throwing me off ??

and yes barn - we should all have our lumps checked out regularly
even with footstraps all the way out on my AHD 160 FF, my feet are still further down the rail - i have read about this and spoke to a local sailor who has the 130 - he has same comment

Gestalt
QLD, 14394 posts
25 Mar 2013 8:55PM
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it's because you are using race sails.

if you want to use smaller sails then use power wave sails.

15-20 knots for me is an 8.5 race sail. on a wave sail i'm at 6.4m and thinking of changing down to 5.8m. 25 knots and i'm on a 5.3m wave sail.

joe windsurf
1480 posts
25 Mar 2013 7:00PM
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yes i use race sails - knew they have big range, but wow ...

at 25 knots i am on a much smaller board with a wave 6.3 and OP
unfortunately i donut have smaller sail YET
i call that range 40 to 60 kph - and usually practice - since my sails are not small enuff

climber
NSW, 1125 posts
25 Mar 2013 10:09PM
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Gestalt said...
it's because you are using race sails.

if you want to use smaller sails then use power wave sails.

15-20 knots for me is an 8.5 race sail. on a wave sail i'm at 6.4m and thinking of changing down to 5.8m. 25 knots and i'm on a 5.3m wave sail.




Yep ... plus one on this

Mark _australia
WA, 22423 posts
25 Mar 2013 7:11PM
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barn said...





Maybe he is wearing a steamer, and that lump in the diagram is the end of his penis.

Then you will regret taking the mickey

Gestalt
QLD, 14394 posts
25 Mar 2013 9:13PM
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well you just gotta decide what type of sailng you enjoy and aim your gear at that. i haven't used my 8.5 in 4 years. my 10.5 in 8 years.

my 6.4 was great in 15-20 (actually used it mostly in 12-18 knots) but i broke the head of my boom so the biggest sail i use now is my 5.8, that means i dredge a bit in 15-20 knots.

my sail quiver is - 5.8, 5.3, 4.7
my board quiver - 120lt freestyle
prevailing winds 10-30 knots

i recently picked up a sup for when the wind is less than 15 knots and i use a 5.8 or 5.3 on that.

if the wind is over 35 knots i have a couple of old wave boards i pull out of the garage. one being a 95lt fish and the other an 85lt onshore wave shape. i use those boards maybe once or twice a year.

Gestalt
QLD, 14394 posts
25 Mar 2013 9:21PM
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climber said...
Gestalt said...
it's because you are using race sails.

if you want to use smaller sails then use power wave sails.

15-20 knots for me is an 8.5 race sail. on a wave sail i'm at 6.4m and thinking of changing down to 5.8m. 25 knots and i'm on a 5.3m wave sail.




Yep ... plus one on this


hi 5! :-) p.s. u, burrum 2014.......

ka43
NSW, 3075 posts
25 Mar 2013 11:40PM
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20 knots is a lot stronger than most people actually realise.
Im heavy and a 7.8 and 125 ltr board is enough to get me going and then hold on in about 18 -20 knots. The very good guys like Slowey, 25 (lots Ive left out) etc can get more out of same size or bigger gear. From above 20 knots I change down to a 7.0/112 slalom board and then after that its down to a 6.4/99 ltr board.
Sails have a huge amount of tunability and their wind range is massive compared to even a few years ago.
Millsy and I sail together a bit and our weight difference is what makes the difference in gear choice. its horses for courses and ask around and go with your instincts if in doubt. No point in gettting belted and not enjoy your sesh!!

ikw777
QLD, 2995 posts
25 Mar 2013 10:48PM
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These threads can get so pointless because everyone has a different idea of what 15 - 20 kts is. Unless strength is confirmed with an anemometer on the spot. . . .

FormulaNova
WA, 14734 posts
25 Mar 2013 8:56PM
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ka43 said...
20 knots is a lot stronger than most people actually realise.
Im heavy and a 7.8 and 125 ltr board is enough to get me going and then hold on in about 18 -20 knots. The very good guys like Slowey, 25 (lots Ive left out) etc can get more out of same size or bigger gear. From above 20 knots I change down to a 7.0/112 slalom board and then after that its down to a 6.4/99 ltr board.
Sails have a huge amount of tunability and their wind range is massive compared to even a few years ago.
Millsy and I sail together a bit and our weight difference is what makes the difference in gear choice. its horses for courses and ask around and go with your instincts if in doubt. No point in gettting belted and not enjoy your sesh!!



I reckon you are spot on. I get annoyed when people say it is 25 knots and you know it is really only around 18. Its also annoying when they say you should use the same sail size as them and they are 20kgs lighter.

All it would take is for one person to get the wind estimate wrong, and there would be a lot of confusion over why one guy can sail with a much smaller sail in the same wind strength.

Just out of interest, at the Guy Cribb clinic in Safety Bay this year, for one day only, I used a 6.5m instead of when I would have used a 8.5m, because GC wanted me to try using a small sail for duck gybe attempts.

Sure I could sail the 6.5m and get planing, but I had to work at it, having to bear away a lot and struggling to get upwind. If I had the 8.5m rigged I would have had heaps of controllable grunt, and had much more fun.

Gestalt
QLD, 14394 posts
25 Mar 2013 11:23PM
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FormulaNova said...
ka43 said...
20 knots is a lot stronger than most people actually realise.
Im heavy and a 7.8 and 125 ltr board is enough to get me going and then hold on in about 18 -20 knots. The very good guys like Slowey, 25 (lots Ive left out) etc can get more out of same size or bigger gear. From above 20 knots I change down to a 7.0/112 slalom board and then after that its down to a 6.4/99 ltr board.
Sails have a huge amount of tunability and their wind range is massive compared to even a few years ago.
Millsy and I sail together a bit and our weight difference is what makes the difference in gear choice. its horses for courses and ask around and go with your instincts if in doubt. No point in gettting belted and not enjoy your sesh!!


Just out of interest, at the Guy Cribb clinic in Safety Bay this year, for one day only, I used a 6.5m instead of when I would have used a 8.5m, because GC wanted me to try using a small sail for duck gybe attempts.

Sure I could sail the 6.5m and get planing, but I had to work at it, having to bear away a lot and struggling to get upwind. If I had the 8.5m rigged I would have had heaps of controllable grunt, and had much more fun.



not being there i can only make assumptions but i'd hazzard a guess that guy cribb would not have suggested a 6.5 if he didn't think it the right sail for the conditions.

i'd also suggest that if you put your 8.5 in the garage and only sailed your 6.5 you would adjust your technique and not struggle. it just takes time.

Gestalt
QLD, 14394 posts
25 Mar 2013 11:25PM
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ikw777 said...
These threads can get so pointless because everyone has a different idea of what 15 - 20 kts is. Unless strength is confirmed with an anemometer on the spot. . . .


done it many many times.

greenleader
QLD, 5283 posts
26 Mar 2013 12:02AM
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www.michellebridges.com.au/

Gestalt
QLD, 14394 posts
26 Mar 2013 12:08AM
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lol,

what's that old windsurfing saying

lightweights sail waves,
heavyweights sail slalom

the rest go to michelle bridges.

FormulaNova
WA, 14734 posts
26 Mar 2013 5:43AM
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Gestalt said...

not being there i can only make assumptions but i'd hazzard a guess that guy cribb would not have suggested a 6.5 if he didn't think it the right sail for the conditions.

i'd also suggest that if you put your 8.5 in the garage and only sailed your 6.5 you would adjust your technique and not struggle. it just takes time.


Well, most of the people there were on sails bigger than mine, and most of them were lighter than me.

What I was trying to say, was that I did adjust my technique. Bearing away to get planing and doing everything I could to try to get upwind. I was pretty impressed that I managed to get planing relatively easily, but it was frustrating without the bucket loads of power I prefer to sail with.

On the afternoons video, Guy was saying 'Dale, I don't know why, but you seemed to be bearing away downwind a lot today..'. Go figure. That's why my choice of sail size that day would have been 8.5m, or 7.5m if I felt it was going to pick up a bit.

The 6.5m was used because he figured learning to duck gybe when well powered up, and with a long boom, would make it difficult. To show that even GC is not infallible, he was struggling to get upwind that same day, albeit on a tiny sail.

"It just takes time" - that sounds sort of insulting given that you have no idea how I sail. Given a choice of struggling around on a small sail or rigging big and motoring around having fun, I would choose the large sail every time



Gestalt
QLD, 14394 posts
26 Mar 2013 8:03AM
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not meant to be insulting.

you can't possibly expect to go from running race sails and being completely loaded up to getting the most out of a small sail in the same wind. i know this because that's what i did myself.

it does take time. it's not just about bearing away.

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying you shouldn't be running bigger sails. not at all.

what i am saying is.

people who say a heavy weight on a 6.5m sail in 15-20 knots cant be planning around sailing upwind and down with ease are wrong. a really good sailor would have a 5.8 planning in those winds

Gestalt
QLD, 14394 posts
26 Mar 2013 8:35AM
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lets talk about fin sizes...

my main fin is 24cm. if it's really light i use a 32cm freewave.
when using slalom gear. i used 48cm and 42cm fins for the same wind strength.

those bigger much heavier rigs with all of the power also need much bigger heavier fins to keep them in check.

go figure.

edit** hmm, maybe my smallest is a 26cm. honestly can't remember, it's been so long since i bought it.

FormulaNova
WA, 14734 posts
26 Mar 2013 8:19AM
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Gestalt said...
not meant to be insulting.

you can't possibly expect to go from running race sails and being completely loaded up to getting the most out of a small sail in the same wind. i know this because that's what i did myself.

it does take time. it's not just about bearing away.

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying you shouldn't be running bigger sails. not at all.

what i am saying is.

people who say a heavy weight on a 6.5m sail in 15-20 knots cant be planning around sailing upwind and down with ease are wrong. a really good sailor would have a 5.8 planning in those winds


'A really good sailor'? What is that? One who is trying to prove how small a sail they can use? One who can go faster than another? One who can comfortably plane out of gybes? There are so many variables, and would a really good sailor want to sail a rig where they had to put in a lot of effort and not be that comfortable?

I think this is where the understanding of the actual windspeed comes into it too. A real 20 knots, yes, a 6.5m not a problem. Trouble is that a lot of people assume it is 20 knots when its only 16, so their comparison is meaningless.

Similarly, I think someone saying they use a 8.5m in 25+ knots is probably not right. Sure, you can do it, but it probably won't be comfortable. I keep on having a problem with Macro saying he was sailing 6m+ sails in 30 knots. I just don't believe it for someone his weight.

I do love the range you can get with race sails though. Lots of flexibility, and comfortable.Comparing sailors like this is not easy. Different boards, different sails, and different fins.

There was one day in Safety Bay this season, where the wind finally came in, and there were only three of us out there. I was on a 8.5m and a 125L iSonic. The other guys were on smaller boards and smaller sails. Glenn was on a 5.7m sail and still planing fast. He was sailing well on a sail almost 3 metres smaller than mine and I couldn't argue I was heavier either.

He sure had to do a lot of pumping to get started though. He seemed to have a nice floaty board and a decent fin, so it probably made a bit of a difference too.

The point of this? It is very difficult to compare sailors. Me, I would prefer to have enough sails and boards to be able to sail comfortably in whatever wind speed is out there.





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"Heavyweights and equipment" started by joe windsurf