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June & its 2011 gear - w/surfns gettn fn stupid

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Created by russh > 9 months ago, 10 Jun 2010
russh
SA, 3025 posts
13 Jun 2010 6:15PM
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In the end no one questions the develpoment of gear and design its more the annual push - and whether its about true innovation or market share.

What we ride for 2011 is just the R&D teams 2009 gear, there already probably riding 2012/13's.

Be nice if they bought out a freewave twinnie / quad option with decent size real world fins that has all the benefits of flatter rocker and early planing with a higher level manouverability from the twins.

Scotty Mac
SA, 2055 posts
13 Jun 2010 7:00PM
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Who I have sailed with? Give me a break. Now you want me to drop names? No difference between gear pro's use compared to everyone else unless your just learning then you choice same rig but then just go bigger size board. Was that your only question?, too long to read the lot!

Mrgob
116 posts
13 Jun 2010 6:07PM
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Quote Scotty Mac, 'No difference between gear pro's use compared to everyone else.'

Thank you for clearing that one up. I mistakenly thought they used custom boards painted to look like ordinary production ones. Has that practice now ceased?

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
13 Jun 2010 8:10PM
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Scotty Mac you must be awesome. I guess the only pro i've sailed with is steve & 2 things stuck out immediately- how quick he could get going & how small the gear he could use was compared to anyone else.

KenHo
NSW, 1353 posts
13 Jun 2010 8:49PM
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russh said...

In the end no one questions the develpoment of gear and design its more the annual push - and whether its about true innovation or market share.

What we ride for 2011 is just the R&D teams 2009 gear, there already probably riding 2012/13's.

Be nice if they bought out a freewave twinnie / quad option with decent size real world fins that has all the benefits of flatter rocker and early planing with a higher level manouverability from the twins.


Pretty sure that's what my new 92 JP quad is. I've only used it a few times, mostly in powered up conditions, but it has plenty of fin area and seemed to plane easily enough.
Actually, I did use it one day at Currumbin that was a bit iffy and it planed easily enough. Plenty of volume too. That's probably what I'll choose to start on in Maui. Might go down a size after a couple of days, might not as it hides it's volume very well and feels genuinely tiny underfoot, so there may be no real reason to go to a smaller board, other than ego.

russh
SA, 3025 posts
13 Jun 2010 8:39PM
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^^^ I have the 92 twinnie and it has none of the above tendencies unless its well powered at 20+ knts then its great - the only diffrence is the front fins and at 86-90 kg's it is definately not a light wind board but handles 4.2 conditions well

I must say something like the OES 105 quad sounds like a good option for our conditions

windsufering
VIC, 1124 posts
13 Jun 2010 11:06PM
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i know a lot of pros

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
13 Jun 2010 11:18PM
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Chris 249 said...

Gestalt said...

hi chris

the difference between OD and other forms of windsurfing is innovation.

Yeah, I was using OD gear as an example to show that faster sailors can have very different requirements in gear, because of their extra skill.

i don't think it true to say that gear tested by pros doesn't play a positive role in gear development. just look at FW class. the width thing has been the single most positive influence on board design across the spectrum. the pros are also chasing gear that is easier to sail in particular wind strengths and conditions. it allows them to concentrate on tactics or pushing the limits of moves. that said not all pro sailors are racers. some are just exceptional talents that free sail.

the whole tow debate is a moot point. tow will make anyone better. practice is practice.

hi gob

i'm not someone pushing the limits, i just do it for fun. that doesn't mean i can't feel the improvements certain tweaks have made and enjoy well designed gear.

hi ken.

very true. not all gear's brief is for competition.


Gestalt, I wasn't trying to say that pro developments never helped, merely that there's a good case to say that they don't always help. But the point is that the gear that goes better for the top guys can be very different from the gear that goes better for the average guys.

To explain the Wally analogy; if you have a Wally race in 28 knots and big waves, the top guys will go fastest when they use the normal full sail. But back in the pack (and there's some guys there who are **** hot in the surf on their other gear) they'd often be better off with a smaller sail in heavy winds because they spend too much time struggling to control the full sail or falling off.

The point is that even with such basic gear, what works for the top guys does not always work as well for the average guys because they are often going slower, aren't as strong and/or as good at using their available strength, fall more often and therefore need stuff that re-starts more easily, have a harder time handling the rig through tacks, etc etc etc.

You can apply the same thing to other areas of boards (rail shape, fin size, sail type) and other areas of sailing, in my opinion. Look at Robby Naish, who someone else cited as an example. He can use a smaller board in wave comps than someone like me, because he is soooo much better that he can quickly uphaul when up to his waste in water and in the impact zone. Someone like me just can't consistently uphaul a board that small in those conditions, so I need different gear. And he can do a much more aggressive bottom turn without making a mistake or slowing down, so arguably he needs a different rail shape and rocker line.

If I grabbed Robby's gear I'd just sink and flounder. If I use my easier-to-sail gear I'd still flounder, but not as badly.

Ken's point that not all gear is pointed out pro sailors is a good one, but IMHO there's more windsurfing gear that's aimed at leading edge than in other sports I do, and I think that means that the sport becomes unnecessarily hard and probably doesn't perform any better. I'm a mediocre bike racer and no one tells me to use the same gear settings as Cadel Evans, but plenty of people get told to use the same sail settings as Bjorn despite the fact that we aren't as fast as he is and we sail in a different way.

Time on the water CAN be a different issue, for sure - but it's also sometimes closely related. Most of us have budget limitations on our sailing, and often it can be better using cash to get TOW in good conditions rather than getting a shinier sail..... well, that's my take on it anyway.


i guess that's why i sail non cambered sails these days. it's easier.

Chris 249
NSW, 3337 posts
13 Jun 2010 11:42PM
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Scottymac, I wasn't wanting you to drop names but I was wondering whether you'd ever seen the top guys at work.

The point was when I've sailed against pros they were normally so much better that it didn't seem that I needed the same gear as they did. They sailed differently and therefore the gear they needed could easily be different.

And I'm not a beginner.

flipper4444
VIC, 1214 posts
13 Jun 2010 11:51PM
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where is my pop corn the post have been very entertaining lately

choco
SA, 4032 posts
13 Jun 2010 11:23PM
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To save having to update gear every year just buy one of these;



you can wave sail do slalom and freestyle best of all the design will never change....oh yeah did i mention SUP as well?

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
14 Jun 2010 12:35AM
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Mrgob said...

Quote Scotty Mac, 'No difference between gear pro's use compared to everyone else.'

Thank you for clearing that one up. I mistakenly thought they used custom boards painted to look like ordinary production ones. Has that practice now ceased?


Mrgob racing is done on production boards and sails which must be registered each year. Don't know about wave or freestyle- wave boards are a little more specialised to different conditions.

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
14 Jun 2010 12:55AM
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^ and that's been the case for a few years now.

Mrgob
116 posts
14 Jun 2010 12:40AM
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We used to have strict rules in Production Motor Cycle racing, but that didn't stop the factories from pulling fast ones. Malcolm Uphill lapped the T.T. course at over 100 m.p.h. on a supposedly production factory Triumph Bonneville with No.3 (I think) factory tuning kit, as available to ordinary customers.

Somebody managed to snap a photo of it with the fairing removed showing a radically steeper induction tract and cut aways in the tank to accomodate the carbs.

I bought a Bic Saxo 270 in the late 90's after seeing an advert with Robert Tehritahou (don't remember the correct spelling) double looping one. (It was the colour I liked really!)

I'm sure he was more than capable of double looping a barn door, since he was quite crazy, but since he used the same looking board in wave comps at the time, it surely couldn,t have been standard.

Despite what's said today, how can we be sure that boards used in competition are bog standard, and not specially constructed? (They're never sawn in half to check their insides, are they!)

russh
SA, 3025 posts
14 Jun 2010 10:26AM
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choco said...





Thats a sneak peek at the 2013 designs - everything old is new again!!!

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
14 Jun 2010 12:05PM
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MrGob yep I think they can, there is no need though as you can just cut a small amount out. Even then there is no need, through careful measurement you cant really hide anything... say more or less materials will soon be picked up.

Pretty much the only thing they have no control over is fins and booms.

windsufering
VIC, 1124 posts
14 Jun 2010 7:26PM
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i am going to get a lesson from the pros

Mistral Nick
QLD, 370 posts
14 Jun 2010 7:54PM
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windsufering said...

i am going to get a lesson from the pros


What? from a girl on the avenue?

Scotty Mac
SA, 2055 posts
14 Jun 2010 7:35PM
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mk steve, your right, i am. thats me on the red sail.

king of the point
WA, 1836 posts
16 Jun 2010 3:26PM
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Do the pros consider my expanding beer gut ,authritis ,gout and piles that im developing whist on this computer ,.........Ones flexability and countless war injuries from slaying dragon tails ?????

Just make it easyer please on my aging body to gouge hissing fire breathing dragons apart

comfortable footstraps , lighter but stronger gear.

and watch the cost


The worst gear is new gear you have not used and abused

Mind you there is a point where your equipment ,suffers the repeated beating and roth of the dragon tail and thus gets bent, stretched,and blowen out.

It is at this point the wallet has to get a beating.

As for the latest and greates .............its not always 2 steps forward and one back or is it two back and one forward.

Gotta live for the love and passion , associated with rtrying somthing new to slaye dragons creating a different style and feel.

not talking kiting either



Mrgob
116 posts
16 Jun 2010 5:14PM
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Ah! 'Stronger and lighter' King of the Point!

Sorry sir, it aint possible. You can have stronger and heavier, or weaker and lighter, but not both at once until some new miraculous material is invented.

Ben Severne
WA, 194 posts
16 Jun 2010 7:53PM
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You can have stronger and lighter.... and more expensive.

ginger pom
VIC, 1746 posts
16 Jun 2010 10:41PM
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Can we have stronger, lighter, more expensive and still good?

eyeMhardcor
255 posts
16 Jun 2010 8:52PM
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choco said...

To save having to update gear every year just buy one of these;



you can wave sail do slalom and freestyle best of all the design will never change....oh yeah did i mention SUP as well?


Thats similar to the wave sails i use





Scotty Mac
SA, 2055 posts
16 Jun 2010 10:27PM
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What, all those green thumbs for him? Thanks for fixing my sail. Owe you one.

Mrgob
116 posts
17 Jun 2010 12:21AM
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You are the expert on sails Mr Severne, so we agree, but how would you apply the argument to boards? (King of the Point did specifically say to keep the cost down!)

I read his request for stronger to mean longer lasting and more durable, not stiffer and more rigid.

If you take a current production board and wish to change its durability, you can surely only do one of two things? Beef it up with extra material (durable but heavier), or lighten it by removing some material (lighter but less durable).

It may be argued that it can be lightened and STIFFENED by substituting more carbon for some of the heavier material, but would that increase its long term durability?

Mountain bikes currently face a similar dilemma. Some makes have substituted carbon for alloy in critical high stress areas, and there has been a much increased epidemic of snapping failures. Durability not!

Brent in Qld
WA, 1039 posts
17 Jun 2010 7:31AM
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The new millennium kit is fantastic, give me light and a smile on me dial.
When you ***k up you'll break gear, light or heavy, so always have two masts, booms etc… and plenty 'o' duct tape at the beach to keep sailing and learn to fix stuff. When was the last time you saw a snapped in half board, we use to see them every session but they were low tech, cheap, heavy and sailed terribly in comparison to today's gear.

Keep the cost down? Get into jet skis, snow skiing or car racing for a while to find out how cheap windsurfing really is. A top of the line epoxy/sandwich Windtech 15-20yrs ago was $2200-2800AUD, not that different to what we pay today for pretty similar construction, as consumers how long do we want prices to stay put?

The killer day with the right gear stays with you longer than how you saved 500 at the cash register then have been stuck with a heavy dog you've struggled on for 5 seasons.

Scotty Mac
SA, 2055 posts
17 Jun 2010 10:40AM
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yer, wot he said

Mrgob
116 posts
17 Jun 2010 5:02PM
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Boards magazine under Ian Leonids regime tested the same boards back to back in different constructions. (heavier v. lighter.)

In summary, they found performance differences to be minimal, and mostly in peoples minds.

Perhaps they were too inexperienced to tell!!

windsufering
VIC, 1124 posts
17 Jun 2010 7:12PM
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i spoke to the pros they like harder stiffer and stronger ones



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"June & its 2011 gear - w/surfns gettn fn stupid" started by russh