Search for a Location
  Clear Recents
Metro
South West
Central West
North West
  Surf Cameras
  Safety Bay Camera
Metro
North
Mid North
Illawarra
South Coast
Metro
West Coast
East Coast
Brisbane
Far North
Central Coast
Sunshine Coast
Gold Coast
Hobart
West Coast
North Coast
East Coast
Recent
Western Australia
New South Wales
Victoria
South Australia
Queensland
Northern Territory
Tasmania
  My Favourites
  Reverse Arrows
General
Gps & Speed Sailing
Wave Sailing
Foiling
Gear Reviews
Lost & Found
Windsurfing WA
Windsurfing NSW
Windsurfing QLD
Windsurfing Victoria
Windsurfing SA
Windsurfing Tasmania
General
Gear Reviews
Foiling
Newbies / Tips & Tricks
Lost & Found
Western Australia
New South Wales
Queensland
Victoria
South Australia
Tasmania
General
Foiling
Board Talk & Reviews
Wing Foiling
All
Windsurfing
Kitesurfing
Surfing
Longboarding
Stand Up Paddle
Wing Foiling
Sailing
  Active Topics
  Subscribed Topics
  Rules & Guidelines
Login
Lost My Details!
Join! (Its Free)
  Search for a Location
  Clear Recents
Metro
South West
Central West
North West
Surf Cameras
Safety Bay Camera
Metro
North
Mid North
Illawarra
South Coast
Metro
West Coast
East Coast
Brisbane
Far North
Central Coast
Sunshine Coast
Gold Coast
Hobart
West Coast
North Coast
East Coast
Recent
Western Australia
New South Wales
Victoria
South Australia
Queensland
Northern Territory
Tasmania
  My Favourites
  Reverse Arrows
All
Windsurfing
Kitesurfing
Surfing
Longboarding
Stand Up Paddle
Wing Foiling
Sailing
Active Topics
Subscribed Topics
Forum Rules
Login
Lost My Details!
Join! (Its Free)

Forums > Windsurfing General

New 2012 Naish Chopper wave sail

Reply
Created by windaddict > 9 months ago, 2 Mar 2012
BenKirk
NSW, 600 posts
3 Mar 2012 12:21PM
Thumbs Up

Interesting to see a comparison with the Severne Swats - which are at such a good price point... and 4 battens/compact shaping.

nosinkanow
NSW, 441 posts
3 Mar 2012 1:14PM
Thumbs Up

What I find interesting is that Naish's claim that "Since you will be using a smaller size sail and shorter mast" tells me that they are returning to the power delivery of sails from pre-flat top days without the height? Lots of power down low, which suits my heavier weight, for instant speed but I guess a trade-off in less top speed? It's designed for waves afterall and ideal for freestyle too me thinks so top speed is not a priority.

If they have eliminated the upper twist off area from the norm and moved it down and out they must have done some serious shaping to the lower part of the sail to reduce pull from the top of the sail where they moved the sail area to.

I'd love to try one out in the XL size.

FR
14 posts
3 Mar 2012 11:14AM
Thumbs Up

Hi All!

Wind Warrior and AUS301 are bang on. I have actually had a chance to use the Chopper sail here on Maui and it is truly amazing.

The "M" is equivalent to a 4.7 with increased top end range and same goes for the other sizes.

The control you gain with these sails, less swing weight without sacrificing power and early planing is unmatched.

FR

Mark _australia
WA, 22724 posts
3 Mar 2012 1:42PM
Thumbs Up

I fail to see how you can get more top end with a softer sail - less skin tension due to softer (shorter) masts and less battens for support.
Maybe I am missing something but a Fly, Swat or this thing will all be softer feeling than the same manufacturer's 5 batten wave sail.

FR, you are talking about early planing which means grunty down low, so how Naish can also claim much-increased top end is beyond me.

R1DER
WA, 1463 posts
3 Mar 2012 1:58PM
Thumbs Up

Mark _australia said...

I fail to see how you can get more top end with a softer sail - less skin tension due to softer (shorter) masts and less battens for support.
Maybe I am missing something but a Fly, Swat or this thing will all be softer feeling than the same manufacturer's 5 batten wave sail.


I agree, I'd like to try one and see for myself, I have nothing against Naish sails, my most favourite sail was a 2008 5.3 Naish Force

Gestalt
QLD, 14449 posts
3 Mar 2012 4:54PM
Thumbs Up

what were your thoughts on the north hero and the severne swat

FR said...

Hi All!

Wind Warrior and AUS301 are bang on. I have actually had a chance to use the Chopper sail here on Maui and it is truly amazing.

The "M" is equivalent to a 4.7 with increased top end range and same goes for the other sizes.

The control you gain with these sails, less swing weight without sacrificing power and early planing is unmatched.

FR


CJW
NSW, 1718 posts
3 Mar 2012 6:53PM
Thumbs Up

Mark _australia said...

I fail to see how you can get more top end with a softer sail - less skin tension due to softer (shorter) masts and less battens for support.
Maybe I am missing something but a Fly, Swat or this thing will all be softer feeling than the same manufacturer's 5 batten wave sail.

FR, you are talking about early planing which means grunty down low, so how Naish can also claim much-increased top end is beyond me.




If you watch the video RE the theory behind the sails the designer actually says "it's not the sail you take out in windy conditions for control" or something very similar to that. I would imagine the top end on this sail is pretty poor, simply due to its design.

As the owner of both the SWAT ('11 and 12' models) and the S1('12) I can say that the S1 is a far more stable sail, particularly compared to the '11 SWATs which imo are a very soft sail with a very deep bottom end range; the '12 SWATs seem much closer to the S1's in terms of foil stability and have much more skin tension than the '11 models (from my observations).

I would imagine this sail is quite similar to the '11 SWAT, although more compact; lots of low end grunt with a trade off in top end control.

nzloopy
14 posts
3 Mar 2012 4:38PM
Thumbs Up

Sailworks have has similar explanation issues. Their Huckers, which have been around since at least 2005, are very grunty sails. 5.6 Hucker is like a 6.2 NP alpha in terms of power.

Mark _australia
WA, 22724 posts
3 Mar 2012 5:21PM
Thumbs Up

CJW said...

Mark _australia said...

I fail to see how you can get more top end with a softer sail - less skin tension due to softer (shorter) masts and less battens for support.
Maybe I am missing something but a Fly, Swat or this thing will all be softer feeling than the same manufacturer's 5 batten wave sail.

FR, you are talking about early planing which means grunty down low, so how Naish can also claim much-increased top end is beyond me.




If you watch the video RE the theory behind the sails the designer actually says "it's not the sail you take out in windy conditions for control" or something very similar to that. I would imagine the top end on this sail is pretty poor, simply due to its design.



Yup. The typical manufacturer's claim of more bottom end and more top end that they repeat ad nauseum and it is borderline insulting - they think we are that dumb?
We should have sails with a 40kn wind range if all their claimed annual improvements since 1988 are true........

stehsegler
WA, 3477 posts
3 Mar 2012 11:15PM
Thumbs Up

nzloopy said...

Sailworks have has similar explanation issues. Their Huckers, which have been around since at least 2005, are very grunty sails. 5.6 Hucker is like a 6.2 NP alpha in terms of power.


well... and a 2012 Atlas 4.7 is like a 2009 5.4 Alpha.

Don't get me wrong. The Huckers are good sails but the 6.2 never really made a lot to sense to me. The difference between the 6.2 and the 5.8 Alpha in my opinion is nill.

Back to topic... I agree with Mark that I would like to see how it actually works. I was always sceptical of quad and twin boards but found that Thrusters seem to be a good compromise. Yet any of those boards in the right conditions out perform a single fin.

I think the bottom line is the chopper is designed for a very specific market. Having seen a number of Hawaiian sailors at places like Gnaraloo I would say as a general rule of thumb a lot of them like to sail very underpowered.

Ian K
WA, 4101 posts
4 Mar 2012 6:32AM
Thumbs Up

jermaldan said...

Looks nice, but this sizing thing is a dumb move.


There would go the only indisputable method of measuring wind strength that we have! What can we say? "It was an XXL.. sorry XXS day"

dinsdale
WA, 1227 posts
6 Mar 2012 5:36PM
Thumbs Up

Troppo said...

Justin is saying that they are targeted towards heavier sailors having more grunt to get up and go. In response to windwarriors post.

84Kg?? Heavier sailors?? 84Kg sailors are lightweight kidz .

JPD
NSW, 115 posts
11 Mar 2012 9:32PM
Thumbs Up

I like the look of those choppers are they in aus yet ?

aus301
QLD, 2039 posts
12 Mar 2012 7:02PM
Thumbs Up

Must be something to it, would seem Maui Sails are now doing similar stuff with their new Mutant.

www.mauisails.com/news.php?id=309

Stuthepirate
SA, 3590 posts
12 Mar 2012 7:46PM
Thumbs Up

albentley said...

but what the hell is wave..freestyle... 'kung fu'???? Eagle claw???




If they made a Naish 'Chuck Norris' no one could handle it.

Mark _australia
WA, 22724 posts
12 Mar 2012 5:53PM
Thumbs Up

aus301 said...

Must be something to it, would seem Maui Sails are now doing similar stuff with their new Mutant.

www.mauisails.com/news.php?id=309


Yeah but people also bought footy fins, canards, Z booms, chest harnesses, and god knows what else due to fashion, but we now know better

I think these unstable sails for featherweights will go the same way

jh2703
NSW, 1222 posts
12 Mar 2012 8:59PM
Thumbs Up

Maybe this is 'Kung Fu' style....



aus301
QLD, 2039 posts
12 Mar 2012 9:22PM
Thumbs Up

Mark _australia said...

Yeah but people also bought footy fins, canards, Z booms, chest harnesses, and god knows what else due to fashion, but we now know better

I think these unstable sails for featherweights will go the same way



Hmmm, all the innovations you are talking about are quite old though Mark, I really think the R&D on gear these days is far greater and highly doubt you would see two companies go to market with something that didn't work.

And there was nothing wrong with chest harnesses, I used one for years.

Mark _australia
WA, 22724 posts
12 Mar 2012 7:40PM
Thumbs Up

^^^ sorry I disagree there are many things companies do just to keep up (notionally / market share)

More recent?
Look at Quads - all of a sudden every company had to have a quad, and the first year many were awful as they rushed them out to compete. Season 2, and they were all quite good.

2001 -2 somebody (NP?) did batwing leeches, all of a sudden next year everyone had them. They were not that good and we haven't seen one since.

2004 - metallic x-ply in all wavesails. Seen much lately?

2006-7 (?) - companies start sanding excess paint off boards to lighten them and show off the fact they really do have carbon fibre. Now we have black resin in glass boards to make them look the part.

This is a tit for tat marketing thing with soft compact 4 batten wavesails. Maybe they are good, but they only suit a few people.
For Naish to say it has bottom end grunt, and a 4.7 has the top end of a 4.2 is rubbish and I am all the more pessimistic given the copying and marketing hype we see all the time

f2sunset
3 posts
13 Mar 2012 8:27PM
Thumbs Up

Hi guys. I'm a lightweight at 72 kg and I have a Naish boxer sl 7.0 2010 which rigs on 430 rdm. It is really compact compared to other sails and the 2012 is even more compact!Is that a problem??Works far better for me compared to other sails I had up to 8.5.Really like handling a much smaller sail and by far a lighter rig. Have never used a boxer but looking forward to hear comments on the chopper after someone tries it.I really think that when you are overpowered it is a lot easier to handle a smaller rig of the same sail size.Maybe thats what they mean for the top end conditions.

mathew
QLD, 2054 posts
13 Mar 2012 11:31PM
Thumbs Up


I'm a lightweight at xxx kg... blah blah...


umm... how about the 12yr old kid at 45 kg? What does he use?

Sail sizes of S,M,L,etc is stupid -> it works for T-shirts as we dont change our body shape from day-to-day... the wind does.

Lets go back to using "storm sails"... 'cause that worked so well.

f2sunset
3 posts
13 Mar 2012 10:27PM
Thumbs Up

so mathew you are saying that someone at 85 kg should use the same gear as me?I think that for the same wind if I use M he should use L.We should go as you suggest just stay in the past and don't try something new

Mark _australia
WA, 22724 posts
13 Mar 2012 10:57PM
Thumbs Up

f2sunset said...

so mathew you are saying that someone at 85 kg should use the same gear as me?I think that for the same wind if I use M he should use L.We should go as you suggest just stay in the past and don't try something new


I think what he is saying is where is the XXXS? or the XXXXL? Having 4 sizes for a whole range is dumb.

I think the storm sail reference may be tongue in cheek

And I still assert that you can't have awesome bottom end and top end, else we'd all have one. It is typical marketing spiel. Bit like how all the boards are faster AND looser AND easier to gybe etc etc, every.single.year for the last 20yrs.

With 2 posts, you wouldn't be sponsored by Naish and have joined just for this thread, would you George?

Subsonic
WA, 3195 posts
13 Mar 2012 11:44PM
Thumbs Up

So essentially what theyve done is gone wavesailors dont need this top floppy bit of the sail since they don't need a ridiculous top end speed so we'll cut it off?

I can see them standing in the loft

Loft boss:"Wow! that looks super! Sooooooo, how much exactly did you cut off each one?"

Sailmaker:"Ummmmm S#%t"

Loft boss: "Thats a carton! Alright, we'll call this one a small this one a medium...........

f2sunset
3 posts
14 Mar 2012 5:49AM
Thumbs Up

I wish I was payed to do that Mark:) You are correct about the low end and top end.Can't have it all although we are looking for more and more. I just want to say that from all the new concepts some will be ok otherwise the sport wouldn't evolve.Maybe its to good to be true for this line of sails:) Anyway which sail would you recommend in the 5.3-5.5 category to have the biggest wind range.Ezzy's?? Just looking to lower my quiver.Would love to have a 5.5 and a 4.5 than 4 sails from 5.7 to 4.2.

aus301
QLD, 2039 posts
14 Mar 2012 11:27AM
Thumbs Up

Mark _australia said...

I think what he is saying is where is the XXXS? or the XXXXL? Having 4 sizes for a whole range is dumb.



Sorry Mark, just picking up on this comment. I find it interesting that almost any discussion on how to get more people windsurfing seems to have as one of the top responses a need to simplify the sport. In this we are getting exactly what has been asked for by some parts of the market, maybe not all which may be where you sit.

4 sizes for a range of wave sails seems ok to me, I don't know many wave sailors that don't have a range looking something like 5.7, 5.3, 4.7, 4.2 etc or less depending on location - here in QLD we can drop the 4.2 for instance. So XL, L, M, S... I guess I don't get what the issue is.

Finally a company is making it easy for consumers. Here are the sizes, they all rig on a single mast away you go. We then may see benefits through economies of scale for the manufacturer, less sizes from them means greater sale of individual sizes and lower production costs for a given size in the range, maybe, I don't assume to know the cost models behind sail production.

I will re-iterate, as it seems to be on peoples minds... I don't sail for or own a Naish sail. I tried one once and hated it. But I do like some elements of the concept behind the chopper. I have started to see some glowing reviews, however they may be taken with a grain of salt as I assume only a selected few have had the opportunity of riding one, who may be the same people that stand to benefit from the sails success.

Mark _australia
WA, 22724 posts
14 Mar 2012 9:57AM
Thumbs Up

Simplifying - agreed
All on one mast -agreed

My only beef, and it is just observations as I don't care what Naish do...
I have 5 sails 4.2 to 6.2 and use all of them - the 4.2 may only be 3 or 4 times a year in winter. In the Naish range what does my 55kg mate use? He uses his 3.2 and 3.7 sails a fair bit......
What does my 110kg mate use on the light days? His 6.2 is his most used wave sail.
Even if you love the S - M - L concept a 5.3 is not XL !!! There's the mindset of companies producing gear for 70kg 20 year old professionals.

And again - the claim of great bottom end yet a 4.7 has the top end of a 4.2. Crap.

Paul
WA, 346 posts
14 Mar 2012 12:30PM
Thumbs Up

Why all the grief Mark about Marketing. Surely you know not to read or believe any of the sales blurbs. It is another product to fill a niche like millions of other products out there.
It is not a sail for everyone, it is another tool for those that want it. You can still get 5.7 forces or sessions or boxers. Here is a sail for wave riding on great waves for anyone who doesn't want a standard style sail.
Mybe it is all gimmick but gimmicks do sell and some of them work.

There are boards made for the same wave conditions - they are not for onshore days, not for lumpy surf but are awesome on clean waves. That doesn't mean everyone has to have one.

I though twins and quads were a fad and now I have both and won't go back to a single fin as the multi fins offer me better riding.
I thought 4 batten sails suck from my experience 10 years ago, but now love some of the newer models and would always want one handy. They are way more stable than I thought, more fun to use and light. And I am sailing with 95kg guys who like the same gear all-be-it in the next size up.

It is all about choice - if you think it sucks don't try it. I agree there have been some very dodgy ideas bought to market but one mans turd is another mans gold.

Just to keep the bigger guys happy, there is also some serious work being done on proper wave oreinted 6.2's and 6.7's by some companies for the bigger wave boards guys are now buying and lightest of wind, so it seems everyone is being catered for more easily nowadays.

mathew
QLD, 2054 posts
14 Mar 2012 3:55PM
Thumbs Up

Paul said...

Why all the grief Mark about Marketing. Surely you know not to read or believe any of the sales blurbs. It is another product to fill a niche like millions of other products out there.


Lying to customers (better bottom end, better top end) is.... lying.


It is not a sail for everyone, it is another tool for those that want it. You can still get 5.7 forces or sessions or boxers. Here is a sail for wave riding on great waves for anyone who doesn't want a standard style sail.
Mybe it is all gimmick but gimmicks do sell and some of them work.


hogwash. A "gimmick" is by-definition... a a gimmick. Otherwise it wouldn't be.

Mark interpreted my comment dead-on -> we already had a well defined strategy for users, which took into account wind strength and body weight. Naish have come up with a limited version of the same thing **.

Here is an example of why "M" is a useless metric...:

www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/HavingItLarge.pdf

** The quality of the sails themselves is not in question, just the marketing.

DAM71
QLD, 498 posts
14 Mar 2012 4:54PM
Thumbs Up

The way i have read the naish site is not that the 4.7 has the same top end os a 4.2, but more along the lines the actual sail size is around a 4.2 but has a much better bottom end - similar to that of the 4.7, and thus keeping it's original top end. see excerpt from naish site.

Possible ????

Time will tell.

When team rider, Mark Angulo, ripped a brand new Force nearly in half during an epic wipe-out that took him over the rocks at Ho'okipa, he asked us to put the sail put back together minus the top 2 feet (and top batten) just to see what would happen. After spending some time sailing it, the result surprised even Mark. His re-built 4.7 (which was now barely a 4.2) had nearly the same range as the original sail, and was letting him get away with moves that would have been unthinkable just a month earlier!



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Windsurfing General


"New 2012 Naish Chopper wave sail" started by windaddict