Forums > Windsurfing General

One mast suits all ?

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Created by Macroscien > 9 months ago, 10 Jul 2011
Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
10 Jul 2011 7:25PM
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I have collection already ranging from 3.7 , 4.0 ,4.3 4.6 and now realized that I need to extend this collection up to cover lighter winds too :(
If that is physical impossibility , engineering difficulty or manufacturer greed that there are so many types.
What about universal length starting with minimum and that progressively extended from that bottom or top by different extension pieces?
Or at least common base with longer or shorter top end?
Anyway why that mast is round if modern computer simulation could prove that is not optimal cross section to carry forces and nobody besides anglers use such shape on bigger boats.

Mark _australia
WA, 22235 posts
10 Jul 2011 5:29PM
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Extensions change the mast curve so you can't have a 4.6 and 6.0 on the same mast with tons of extension.
That is why most sails have a sweet spot in the range also.... liek my wavesails, i get 4.2, 4.7, 5.2 on the same mast and the 4.7 feels best by far as the other two are at the extremes for a 400cm mast.

Sounds like you have a 400?

A 430 will allow you to use 5.2 (just) up to about 6.5 so perhaps that should be your next buy

SWS
SA, 196 posts
10 Jul 2011 7:35PM
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Some sail ranges have been designed to fit on one mast......so it is possible I think they just have to make some compromises that some do not want to have to make.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
10 Jul 2011 9:00PM
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I am not engineer to consider details, but if you think about first bottom half ? What is the curve and how important is here for sail performance ? It is not very likely that bending your mast below your boom has any effect at all.
So if you have first half 200 cm and second 200 or 230 or 260 properly designed ?
The only problem is linguistic i can see that one "half" is shorter then another "half".
Problem could be easy solved by designing mast consisting of 200cm + 200cm and 30 or 60 cm inserts.
Anyway that is only matter of time that technology will come to mast and parameters will be adjustable - using carbon fiber strings - tightener-tensioners to allow mast to be stiffer or softer on demand. Ski manufactures solved that problem ages ago.

The next should be oval - or "drop shape" cross section instead if circular.
Every sail designer will agree that top of sail should work and behave differently in axis X Y and mast should be say stiffer in longitudinal and softer in lateral movements.

Mark _australia
WA, 22235 posts
11 Jul 2011 8:27AM
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Macroscien said...

I am not engineer to consider details, but if you think about first bottom half ? What is the curve and how important is here for sail performance ? It is not very likely that bending your mast below your boom has any effect at all.


It does bend below the boom and is important.
Indeed if you have a big long 40cm + extension and use that in the mast with your smallest sail, so you have 40cm of extra pipe up inside the mast, it stiffens the bottom of the mast and changes the sail set considerably (worse of course)

Sorry dude, if you could have one mast and 3 cheap extensions to cover 4.0 - 8.0 and it worked, it would have already been done.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
11 Jul 2011 5:47PM
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Mark _australia said...

Macroscien said...

I am not engineer to consider details, but if you think about first bottom half ? What is the curve and how important is here for sail performance ? It is not very likely that bending your mast below your boom has any effect at all.


It does bend below the boom and is important.
Indeed if you have a big long 40cm + extension and use that in the mast with your smallest sail, so you have 40cm of extra pipe up inside the mast, it stiffens the bottom of the mast and changes the sail set considerably (worse of course)

Sorry dude, if you could have one mast and 3 cheap extensions to cover 4.0 - 8.0 and it worked, it would have already been done.


I like this reasoning. "everything that could, is or was already invented"...

sboardcrazy
NSW, 7952 posts
12 Jul 2011 12:45PM
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I used to try & do that.Now I have the correct mast my previously gutless low down and uncontrollable in stronger winds 4.2m sets correctly and is a great sail to use..I used to use a 430 with my 4.2 now I have a 400.Now I need a 370 for my 3.8 + 3.2..grr

aus301
QLD, 2039 posts
12 Jul 2011 3:20PM
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For those of us that have been around this sport for a long time, much of what you say we have seen in the past.

There was a time when you bought one 460 mast and used it on pretty much everything except the absolute largest of sails. You used long alloy extensions, or extendable turbans in the top of the sail, and that was just the way it was. But now days the sails are much more refined, they are developed around bend curves and rely on the way a mast works to function correctly. Sure you might get away with doing what you have suggested, but you will be asking yourself why the guy with the same sail is going faster, looks more comfortable and seems to get more range out of his sail... simple the mast.

There have also been masts developed to have different bend characteristics on the different axis of the mast, however they used carbon strips on a fibreglass mast... don't see them anymore cause it was tried and of no real value. But it may come back, just like the twin fin did.

Scotty Mac
SA, 2055 posts
12 Jul 2011 4:29PM
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If you buy an ezzy 400, you could buy a half a 370 also. The top and bottom halfs of the different sizes fit, a 370 bottom with a 400 top gives you about 390. That way you could go from 5.3 down to about 4.2 with one and a half masts.....

I did it for a couple of years and it works fine.

GazMan
WA, 839 posts
12 Jul 2011 6:01PM
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Scotty Mac said...

If you buy an ezzy 400, you could buy a half a 370 also. The top and bottom halfs of the different sizes fit, a 370 bottom with a 400 top gives you about 390. That way you could go from 5.3 down to about 4.2 with one and a half masts.....

I did it for a couple of years and it works fine.


I use one and a half ezzy rdm masts to span 4.5-5.3-5.9-6.6 and works a treat!

If using down to 3.7 though you may need two and a half ezzys depending on the biggest sail you plan to use, which will probably need a 430 if its around 5.5-6.5.

I heard some talk of three piece masts a while ago but don't know if this a reality yet!

albentley
NSW, 295 posts
12 Jul 2011 8:27PM
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the S-1 from 4.3 to 5.6 all rig pretty well on a 400... I don't think you would get much more range than this for the same sail model.

on the 5.6 its 30cm extension, which is nothing huge, and the 4.3 0cm i.e. nothing poking out the top

admittedly the 4.3 rigs better on the 370 if you have the choice.

you could always mix sail models if you really wanted to go to extremes like using Boxers for large sizes then something high aspect for small.. like tushingham haha

Al

jsnfok
WA, 899 posts
12 Jul 2011 7:10PM
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check out the three piece north mast set up, pretty cool, and they work well, they also make proper carbon mast extensions in 400mm increment, good for your 400 mast if your use a 6.0m sail once in a while, with out having to shell out for a whole new mast, strong??? there will always be sceptics, compromise; an extra 100 grams....

checkit http://www.north-windsurf.com/en/masts/CARBON.XTENDER

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
12 Jul 2011 9:31PM
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Mark _australia said...

Macroscien said...

I am not engineer to consider details, but if you think about first bottom half ? What is the curve and how important is here for sail performance ? It is not very likely that bending your mast below your boom has any effect at all.


It does bend below the boom and is important.
Indeed if you have a big long 40cm + extension and use that in the mast with your smallest sail, so you have 40cm of extra pipe up inside the mast, it stiffens the bottom of the mast and changes the sail set considerably (worse of course)

Sorry dude, if you could have one mast and 3 cheap extensions to cover 4.0 - 8.0 and it worked, it would have already been done.


I quess you were right (partly) It was invented already and now is the latest, fanciest gadget. In year or two will be at all shops I hope.


GazMan
WA, 839 posts
12 Jul 2011 10:35PM
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Macroscien said...

I have collection already ranging from 3.7 , 4.0 ,4.3 4.6

Curious to know Macroscien where you use a quiver like that? Has Huey (the wind God) delivered more wind than you wished for, or do you weigh around 30kg?

sboardcrazy
NSW, 7952 posts
13 Jul 2011 1:25PM
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GazMan said...

Macroscien said...

I have collection already ranging from 3.7 , 4.0 ,4.3 4.6

Curious to know Macroscien where you use a quiver like that? Has Huey (the wind God) delivered more wind than you wished for, or do you weigh around 30kg?




Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
13 Jul 2011 2:10PM
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GazMan said...

Macroscien said...

I have collection already ranging from 3.7 , 4.0 ,4.3 4.6

Curious to know Macroscien where you use a quiver like that? Has Huey (the wind God) delivered more wind than you wished for, or do you weigh around 30kg?




Just patience and wait for FAT BIG GREEN ARROWS

Last time I used small grear conditions were like that ,

Wind gusts > 40 knt on Shearwater, Gold Coast
I am 80kg and I took JP 92L wave, 4.0 mast and 4.2 sail KA Kaos
My son 62kg , Naish crossover 84L , 3.7 mast and Naish 4.2 sail

To be fair I had difficulty to control everything, and was so fad up with conditions. Conclusion was everybody could reach or over reach limit or his competence at some point. Chop, speed , gybes, waterstart- everythinkg seems to be a problem suddenly.
My son was happy and doing ok at same time. At the end we decieded to swap a grear and suddenly its appear that everything is as it should be .
Sail easy to control, chop manageable and even gybe possible. Son give up instantly on my rig.



So this same size sail 4.2 but different masts 3.7 and 4.0 made all this tremendous difference. I suspect that sail shape is also better

Sails KA Kaos 4.2 on 400mast - no so good; and Naish Force 4.2 on 370 - OK
I wish to have smaller sails in my collection but as you said ; How often I am going to have 50 knt?

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
13 Jul 2011 2:24PM
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sboardcrazy said...

GazMan said...

Macroscien said...

I have collection already ranging from 3.7 , 4.0 ,4.3 4.6

Curious to know Macroscien where you use a quiver like that? Has Huey (the wind God) delivered more wind than you wished for, or do you weigh around 30kg?






Sorry I should mention that was mast collection not sails. My smallest sail finish at 4.2 and that is definitively not small enough in condition I been few times.

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
13 Jul 2011 6:05PM
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^ Just to be sure I also sail on the Gold Coast and my most commonly used sail is a 7.2. Then there's a jump down to the 5.4 as second most used, then in-between. I'm 80kg.

Sometimes you'll get 30+ SErs, but there's a pretty good chance you'll be at work or a prior engagement you can't get out of.

I can cover 4.7 to 6.2 on my 430.

I need a 460 for the 7.2

One boom for all.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
13 Jul 2011 7:17PM
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evlPanda said...

^ Just to be sure I also sail on the Gold Coast and my most commonly used sail is a 7.2. Then there's a jump down to the 5.4 as second most used, then in-between. I'm 80kg.

Sometimes you'll get 30+ SErs, but there's a pretty good chance you'll be at work or a prior engagement you can't get out of.

I can cover 4.7 to 6.2 on my 430.

I need a 460 for the 7.2

One boom for all.

Yeeeh , you are right , definitely it was more windy in Melbourne , but that is still a thrill to get on water above 40 knt when all kites are packing down ....

on another hand I feed safer here on Shearwater, in any case you should land on the sand bank on any side, In Meblourne you had more options : 2 degree - safe back to Rickets Point (throu 20 meters openiing in the rocky laguna, 150 degrees - land on the rocks, the rest directions leads to open water and you can call wife to pickup your from Port Philip if lucky.









kato
VIC, 3369 posts
13 Jul 2011 7:41PM
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I like having a few different masts for sails, it means that the sail works as designed, no extra drag from the mast poking out the top. Using the huge mast or tip extension ends up wreaking the mast or breaking it at the boom. Using different bits to make up the right mast will involve a compromise in the mast curve and the sails performance. The other thing that i like is i can rig several sails at once and get more sailing done. Your masts last a lot longer too as the work load is shared around

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
13 Jul 2011 7:52PM
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Is it healthy for mast ( and sail ) to stay under load all the time or should be de - rigged every time after use?
I do not ( but I dream) that one day when living on waterfront I will keep on my sails on the masts hanging in my garage ready to go. Just attach boom and hop on the water without travel, rigging and the worst could happens - having wrong sail for the conditions.
At resorts they probably have sails rigged all the time , but their life span is not that long anyway. Same with windsurfing schools.

GazMan
WA, 839 posts
13 Jul 2011 9:06PM
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Macroscien said...

So this same size sail 4.2 but different masts 3.7 and 4.0 made all this tremendous difference. I suspect that sail shape is also better

Sails KA Kaos 4.2 on 400mast - no so good; and Naish Force 4.2 on 370 - OK
I wish to have smaller sails in my collection but as you said ; How often I am going to have 50 knt?

Could depend a lot on the bend curve of the two masts. For example, if you happened to be using Naish Firesticks, which some of the specs I have seen would suggest an IMCS bend curve of between 8 and 10% for the 400cm, then that brand/model of mast would probably be too stiff for the Kaos resulting in it being a handful in high winds (KA sails usually set best on a constant curve mast with an IMCS bend curve of around 13-16%).

So what brand/model are the 370 & 400 masts?

Also, have you actually tried the 4.2 Kaos on the 370 mast and the 4.2 Force on the 400 mast? Would be an interesting to hear how the sails handle and perform!


GazMan
WA, 839 posts
13 Jul 2011 9:10PM
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sboardcrazy said...

GazMan said...

Macroscien said...

I have collection already ranging from 3.7 , 4.0 ,4.3 4.6

Curious to know Macroscien where you use a quiver like that? Has Huey (the wind God) delivered more wind than you wished for, or do you weigh around 30kg?







Sorry, couldn't resist!

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
14 Jul 2011 12:30AM
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GazMan said...

Macroscien said...

So this same size sail 4.2 but different masts 3.7 and 4.0 made all this tremendous difference. I suspect that sail shape is also better

Sails KA Kaos 4.2 on 400mast - no so good; and Naish Force 4.2 on 370 - OK
I wish to have smaller sails in my collection but as you said ; How often I am going to have 50 knt?

Could depend a lot on the bend curve of the two masts. For example, if you happened to be using Naish Firesticks, which some of the specs I have seen would suggest an IMCS bend curve of between 8 and 10% for the 400cm, then that brand/model of mast would probably be too stiff for the Kaos resulting in it being a handful in high winds (KA sails usually set best on a constant curve mast with an IMCS bend curve of around 13-16%).

So what brand/model are the 370 & 400 masts?

Also, have you actually tried the 4.2 Kaos on the 370 mast and the 4.2 Force on the 400 mast? Would be an interesting to hear how the sails handle and perform!




OK, well,

if you are going to sail in 50 kn wind, there is not much room for mistake, mate

I used recommended by manufacturer length
370 for Naish and 400 for Kaos
( not so sure about recommended carbon content but as the poorest man on the planet ( self acclaimed) I could afford only 30%C)












jsnfok
WA, 899 posts
13 Jul 2011 10:40PM
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aaahhhhh



should just get a kite

sorry for the blasphemy

i shall watch what i type....

GazMan
WA, 839 posts
13 Jul 2011 11:16PM
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jsnfok said...

aaahhhhh



should just get a kite

sorry for the blasphemy

i shall watch what i type....


Would agree with that response to some extent, particularly with all the mast/sail compatibility problems experienced by many! Much easier with a kite, no stupid IMCS bend curve ratings to deal with which most manufacturers won't come to the party and place on their products! Not going over to the dark side though, finally got the whole bend curve thing worked out (sort of).

GazMan
WA, 839 posts
13 Jul 2011 11:37PM
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Macroscien said...

GazMan said...

Macroscien said...

So this same size sail 4.2 but different masts 3.7 and 4.0 made all this tremendous difference. I suspect that sail shape is also better

Sails KA Kaos 4.2 on 400mast - no so good; and Naish Force 4.2 on 370 - OK
I wish to have smaller sails in my collection but as you said ; How often I am going to have 50 knt?

Could depend a lot on the bend curve of the two masts. For example, if you happened to be using Naish Firesticks, which some of the specs I have seen would suggest an IMCS bend curve of between 8 and 10% for the 400cm, then that brand/model of mast would probably be too stiff for the Kaos resulting in it being a handful in high winds (KA sails usually set best on a constant curve mast with an IMCS bend curve of around 13-16%).

So what brand/model are the 370 & 400 masts?

Also, have you actually tried the 4.2 Kaos on the 370 mast and the 4.2 Force on the 400 mast? Would be an interesting to hear how the sails handle and perform!




OK, well,

if you are going to sail in 50 kn wind, there is not much room for mistake, mate

I used recommended by manufacturer length
370 for Naish and 400 for Kaos
( not so sure about recommended carbon content but as the poorest man on the planet ( self acclaimed) I could afford only 30%C)


Don't think that carbon content is an issue, more to do with the way each mast bends under load.

Herein lies the issue - not all masts of the same length, carbon content and stiffness (eg 400cm-C30-IMCS19) have the same bend characteristics under load, they can and do vary quite a lot! In the case of your 370 and 400, as I said previously it is possible that the 400cm Naish Freeride 30 could be too stiff for the Kaos, but I do think that the 370cm Gun Advantage would be a better match with the Kaos.

Nuff said, only way to find out is to try it (not in 50 knts though maybe settle for 25-30 if it comes along!)



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"One mast suits all ?" started by Macroscien