Forums > Windsurfing General

Separating mast top from bottom

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Created by jermaldan > 9 months ago, 6 Feb 2012
jermaldan
VIC, 1572 posts
6 Feb 2012 10:03AM
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In a real pickle this weekend.

My new 430 RDM would not come apart despite multiple attempts. only managed to get it out around 1cm but that was it. It wouldnt move any more.

Tried the following:

- Six guys either side pulling and twisting (thats how I got it the 1cm) We also used a rubber gripping tool that plumbers use and that almost broke.
- Double boom technique - boom grips slipped.
- some WD40 into the join - didnt seem to have an effect at all.

Need some advice what else to try before I take it back to the store for an exchange.

JayBee
NSW, 714 posts
6 Feb 2012 10:12AM
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www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/yet-another-mast-seperation-method/?SearchTerms=mast,stuck

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/How-to-disassemble-mast/?SearchTerms=mast,stuck

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/the-finite-mast-joining-post/?SearchTerms=mast,stuck

I really dont understand what you expect an exchange. The mast was in 2 pieces, and obviously went together ok. The only mechanism by which it is stuck is because some material has become jammed between the sections (typically sand), and the store had nothing to do with that. It isnt a warranty issue, nor a manufacturing defect.

JB

jh2703
NSW, 1222 posts
6 Feb 2012 10:34AM
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The 2 boom technique should work, get some thin rubber and place it between the clamp and the mast to give it a better grip but I've never had this problem. Just have the booms about 15cm each side of the join and you should get enough grip, work one back and forth until it comes loose.

This following technique is used at your own risk, remove the ring from your extension and place it all the way into the bottom of your mast. Get a wooden block and a mallet, place your mast flat on the ground(grass) and place the wooden block hard up against the base of your extension. Step on the base of your mast with all your weigh and make sure everything is tight and flush. Give the wooden block an almighty hit with the mallet, you may have to do this a few times but it eventually jolt forward enough for it to come loose.

And like I said "it's at your own risk" I've used it several times with no problem but there is potential to damage things or hurt yourself.

king of the point
WA, 1836 posts
6 Feb 2012 7:41AM
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Yep me to this week jammed jammed and more jam and its still jammed
Had a go........ HELP...... had to cart it down the side of the car the last couple of days.............isnt this a classic case when you drop into your windsurf shop and get them to get it appart

One of there best jobs[}:)]

Ps i will try a couple of these thats where its at

jermaldan
VIC, 1572 posts
6 Feb 2012 10:47AM
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thanks for the suggestions.

I have never had the same issue with masts. Usually they come apart with a little twist.

This is a new mast, and I have used it once before. It got a little stuck then but cam apart with a few extra hands.

But if 6 guys are struggling then There must be something more to it.

I am confident that One of these methods should work.

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
6 Feb 2012 9:56AM
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it could be something else but i think sand also.

try a rubber mallet and gently tap around the ferrule.
then put the mast on 2 horses and while holding the ferrule, bend the mast back and forth

then tap again and repeat.

this crushes all of the sand particles

after a while you hopefully will be able to twist the mast apart.

Mark _australia
WA, 22392 posts
6 Feb 2012 10:09AM
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Anyone who takes a hammer, rubber or otherwise, to anything made out of carbon is mad. You will start hairline cracks in the laminate and one day it will go bang.


Hold one end and bounce the other on the lawn for a while, like Gestalt said it crushes the sand a bit.

Persist with the lots of booms and twisting one end only

When you have it apart, considering it has happened a few times you may want to wash it out really well and tape the join when using it so it doesn't clog up again

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
6 Feb 2012 12:30PM
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aww shucks mark, i did say gentle.

Mark _australia
WA, 22392 posts
6 Feb 2012 10:45AM
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^^^ I was more referring to the mast extension and hit it as hard as possible
Interestingly invented by people who work for shops who are interested in selling you a new mast........

fullmoon
WA, 314 posts
6 Feb 2012 11:17AM
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Despite being told not to do it I eventually(within 5 min) freed a severely stuck mast by swinging it like an axe and letting the tip hit the grass.
Swing, rotate 90 degrees, swing, rotate 90, swing, rotate 90 a few times then see if it is loose. If not repeat process until it becomes free.
NOW! I did say swing not smash onto the grass not paving. I dont think the shock loads would be much more than sailing and certainly less than catapulting.
The offending mast is still in service after 2 years. Its still a bit sticky but has never stuck solid again.

PS. The bold print was placed there in an attempt to placate Mark

jermaldan
VIC, 1572 posts
6 Feb 2012 2:22PM
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I did the smashing into the grass thing. No Dice.

After a while of doing that my whole body was vibrating. Its the stuckest mast ever!

dinsdale
WA, 1227 posts
6 Feb 2012 12:43PM
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Never had the problem myself, but, from an engineering background I have a couple of hints for the future:

1. NEVER use any kind of oily substance where grit is involved in a jammed slip fit. It will exacerbate the problem no end. Water is best, though silicone might work.
2. When you do eventually get it apart, given that it's shown a propensity to jam before, use a thin smear of water-based, fine rubbing compound and gently lap the joint until it becomes a smooth slip fit. Twisting the halves whilst working the joint in and out. Stop as soon as the joint works smoothly - this might take only a few twists. Then make sure that ALL of the compound is removed.
3. Do as others have suggested - keep all dirt, grit, sand out of and away from the joint and tape it when in use.

The lapping process will remove any high spots, and if done correctly (not excessively) it can make the joint marginally stronger by creating a larger mating surface within the joint.

mclovin
SA, 724 posts
6 Feb 2012 5:23PM
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i used to tie a bit of non stretch rope around one end maybe use a bit of tape to stop it slipping, have a metre of slack and the other end to tow ball or tree etc. then give it a quick yank from other end of mast. without the slack it wont work though. worked every time even when two booms each end couldn't do it. i haven't needed to do it lately but the masts are still going strong 8+ years later

jh2703
NSW, 1222 posts
6 Feb 2012 8:50PM
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Mark, My smashing with a mallet thing came from the internet so must be OK
The first time i did this was after I tried every other method and I had the same thoughts as you, Carbon + shock can't be good. But guess what? it worked and the mast(430 SDM) is still going strong 5 years later. Iv'e used it several times on another RDM 400 that's still fine after 3 years. So take the risk or not it's up to you, One piece or two it's up to you.

I still think the 2 boom thing is the way 2 go, But with all things old being new again......maybe the 1 piece mast is the go these days?

JonesySail
QLD, 1083 posts
6 Feb 2012 11:58PM
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Think I stole this from someone else here on the site...so thanks to them I repay the favour

My masts stick often (especially with that fine white powder like WA sand.....ohhh that sand I miss it!....anyway...)

Get your roof rack tie down straps, park car on grass near solid concreted in pole,
clove hitch (x2) the mast with strap, then the same via pole, use the 'V" angle in a way that makes sense...attach pole end to tow hitch on car..GENTLY SLOWLY drive away....pop! Works every time..if it doesnt (sometimes strap slips off at car end) just grab the free end of the mast, leave the other attached to pole,
yank hard and fast and ''pop, whoo ahh'...and thats Yank no W...!
ALWAYS works...idea is to do it on grass so you have a soft landing for your mast..

if it works great, if you bugger somethig up, wasnt my suggestion!

Some poles fit tighter than others and can get stuck,,no matter what sort or how much lube you use, or so I have been told..

jermaldan
VIC, 1572 posts
7 Feb 2012 5:28PM
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The method using ropes and booms didnt work. no matter how tight I have tied it, it slips.

Next try will be to tie it to a post and yank....TBC

mineral1
WA, 4564 posts
7 Feb 2012 4:18PM
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cordex[}:)]

GazMan
WA, 840 posts
7 Feb 2012 5:36PM
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Not sure what brand of rdm it is as you didn't appear to mention, but my 430 Ezzy rdm got stuck and this is how I got it apart:

(this assumes that like Ezzy masts, the base is just a tube without a joining ferrule and does not have a plug stuck in it around boom height)

- get a small length of nylon rod (from plastics supplier) smaller than ID of mast at join (need to guess diameter)
- get a length of wood dowel (from Bunnings) roughly same diameter as nylon rod and long enough so that end of dowel sticks out of base at least 20cm
- place nylon rod into base first, followed by wood dowel, then hit end of dowel with hammer

PS nylon rod used first as wood dowel may split when rammed against stuck ferrule, also nylon won't split under pressure and would cushion impact a bit

pedro e
VIC, 257 posts
7 Feb 2012 9:03PM
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Good luck getting it apart Jez.

I'm sure it is mentioned in all those other discussions on this topic cited earlier, but it is worth always gaffa taping the mast join before rigging up. This keeps the sand out and thus greatly reduces the risk of jamming but it also prevents rigging up with the two halves not fully joined - which is a great way to snap the mast. If there is no tape they can slide apart a bit while getting the mast into the mast sleeve and they won't necessarily slide back together when you downhaul the mast due to the induced bend in the mast.

Taping also helps when pulling the mast out of the sail as both halves come out together - no fishing about for the top bit is needed.

king of the point
WA, 1836 posts
7 Feb 2012 6:16PM
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jermaldan said...

I did the smashing into the grass thing. No Dice.

After a while of doing that my whole body was vibrating. Its the stuckest mast ever!


NO not yet mine mast is sitll stuck .... Had a couple of cracks

Was with ben servern and simon hurry currie a couple of weeks back at coros and they got one stuck.... 4 people on either end and we got it apart .....but i had no idea we had to stop a couple of times as it started to come apart as the carbon gets so hot it can melt it together for ever.

jusavina
QLD, 1463 posts
7 Feb 2012 8:38PM
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I wouldn't do that though...

sailquik
VIC, 6094 posts
8 Feb 2012 12:32AM
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Been there, done that. Including the method used in the video!!

I have a (ex) lovely No Limitz 460 hanging in the shed as a rack pole now. Frozen solid. I got it about 3mm apart. Now it has a sideways kink in it so I can't even use it as a one piece.

Can't advise anything more about getting that mast apart. All those other methods have worked for me at one time or another. The problem of stuck masts come with the territory at a place called Sandy Point.

But here are a few observations on preventing the problem in the first place.

Usually, the sand gets into the mast before it it put together. Taping the join has little advantage in that situation, (but may help stop sand already there being packed deeper into the join).

My best advice is this: Be absolutely paranoid about not getting any sand in the mast while rigging up, most especially in the top half if you have a mast with the ferrule in the bottom half. The biggest danger is if you have no seal in the top of the mast. If water can enter the top of your mast you have a recipe for a welded mast. The sand is washed by the water into the join and packed tighter and tighter by the flex and movement of the mast during sailing.
So, put a really good seal plug inside your mast just above the ferrule, and while you are at it, make sure the top plug is tight and has a good seal.
Remember, you only have to touch the mast lightly on the beach for a split second during rigging to ruin you day.

Another thing. There are some brands of masts around that have the ferrule in the top half. This seems to me to be a very good arrangement; gravity does not work against you. But be sure to make sure you have a plug in the base of the mast though!

'The older I get, the better I was'

jermaldan
VIC, 1572 posts
8 Feb 2012 12:27PM
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Tied it to a lamp post at one end and yanked the hell out of it. Maybe 1mm movement. Was absolutely knackered in the end.

ikw777
QLD, 2995 posts
8 Feb 2012 1:56PM
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jermaldan said...

Tied it to a lamp post at one end and yanked the hell out of it. Maybe 1mm movement. Was absolutely knackered in the end.


Chill the bottom half and try again. You can do it.

sausage
QLD, 4873 posts
8 Feb 2012 2:11PM
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I've used the rubber mallet on the end of the extension inserted into mast successfully before but as Mark has pointed out it may cause stress fractures to develop.

Never tried it but ikw777 got me thinking - anyone know whether pouring some ice down the bottom section and boiling water over top section would work. Can't hurt unless boiling water is no good for carbon???

Another more recent way I discovered was holding shoulder width either side of the join and continuously banging the mast just above your knees. The vibrations seem to work the ferrule out although I suspect yours is a little bit "more stuck" and has the potential to cripple you for life.

Windsurf0709
VIC, 136 posts
8 Feb 2012 3:22PM
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I know this sounds crazy, but I often hear Dr Karl on Triple J say to ring your local university. Try ringing Deakin Uni, they have a carbon fibre research centre. I'm sure Monash, La Trobe or Melbourne would also be able to advise on the pros/cons of hot/cold on carbon fibre.

seanhogan
QLD, 3424 posts
8 Feb 2012 2:52PM
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Funny video, they mention a lady that came up to complain thinking they wanted to pull the tree out off the ground.....

Stuthepirate
SA, 3589 posts
8 Feb 2012 3:56PM
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ikw777 said...

jermaldan said...

Tied it to a lamp post at one end and yanked the hell out of it. Maybe 1mm movement. Was absolutely knackered in the end.


Chill the bottom half and try again. You can do it.


Chill the bottom half in ice pack or rap and apply heat gun/hair dryer to top half
Or you could buy it flowers. i know when i'm trying to pry other things apart this can work
Or tell the mast you want to start using other masts, this usually results in a quick separation too.

JonesySail
QLD, 1083 posts
8 Feb 2012 4:38PM
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geez, sling shot masts with a bike tube! Scary video!

Just use your plain old flat tie down straps, same as in video, dont worry about towles and all the stuff they did.

As mentioned sometimes its just enough to get some movement before the straps slip, then just finish off with a quick tug your self..ive had masts that were never going to come apart, but this method always works.
if you managed to move yours 1cm means that it isnt really that stuck at all! when they move 0mm and are jammed tight they are in much worse shape, especially if with really fine powder like sand.

And if all that fails...

a) get a really long car
b) red rag to tie to the end when driving with mast hanging out
c) spend time in the gym

Mark _australia
WA, 22392 posts
8 Feb 2012 2:57PM
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Heat:

Common epoxies soften substantially about 80-100deg and fail completely at about 130deg. There is of course hi temp ones and god knows what they use in masts like vinyl ester resins and others?
But I'd not chance it. ESPECIALLY a hair dryer. We use hair dryers to preheat the crankcases on RC car engines and easily hit 130deg. By the time the heat soaks to full depth the outside surface will be dangerously hot.

One half in the sun (whatever the "outer" half of the join is) and other half in the shade, the with some iced water applied, may do it

busterwa
3777 posts
8 Feb 2012 5:31PM
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IF it dont move attack it with the the OXY? ;-)



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"Separating mast top from bottom" started by jermaldan