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The physics of pumping the sail

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Created by Francone > 9 months ago, 2 Oct 2009
Francone
WA, 291 posts
2 Oct 2009 9:10AM
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Can somebody explain to me in simple terms the physics or hydrodynamics of pumping the sail and the board? I don't need to know how to do it, but WHY it creates acceleration of the board. Please note that I am not an engineer . I don't need complicated formulas,only the concept.

Another question I might ask is whether the floatation of the board (and the planing) is better in deeper water than in shallow water.
I sail in freshwater with a 180 lts board. Later the water level has come down to less than 2 ft near the launching site and I have been experiencing some difficulties in starting out.I have to walk the board for about 200 yds until I reach deeper water, which is quite annoying.

Thank you

Francone

nick0
NSW, 510 posts
2 Oct 2009 11:39AM
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its about increaseing the air flow over the foil ( sail shape) if ur true wind speed in 10knots but moveing ur sail to leeward and then reefing ( pumping ) it back to windward u are moveing the sail say at a speed on 2 knots ..... that 2 knots contributes to the 10 knots and u then have a 12 knot breeze >>>> i find almost jumping on my board helps to plane earlier .. doing little jumps in motion with the sail pumping works

AHeerey
QLD, 12 posts
2 Oct 2009 11:53AM
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Francone

Nick0 explanation is probably clearer, but in a bit more detail

Imagine a windsurfing slogging along slowly.
1. Sailor pumps the sail, pulling it towards him/her self.
2. The sail now has to push (an additional force) against the wind. (think of a swimmer taking a stroke through water)
3. newtons laws, state that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction
4. The opposite (reactionary) force (the additional force/effort you feel in your arms while pumping) pushes the board/sailor forward. (as the bouyancy/shape and centre of weight for the board&sailor will naturally push the board upwards when accellerated forward)
5. Part of this reactionary force will accelerate the board forward and upwards, thus hopefully allowing the board enough acceleration to start planning.
6. Once planning it requires less energy to stay on the plane, then it originally was to get on the plan.

As to the shallow / deep water planning. There is no difference except maybe in very very shallow water (inches). I suspect what you are noticing is there is less wind at the shoreline then in the deeper water. This is due to the wind slowing down as it rises over the land and the greater friction between wind over land than wind over water. The more onshore the breaze the greater the effect. This effect does create a "lighter" slower windspeed area out into the water. If this doesnt make sense you could think of it as a merging lane from 2 to 1 lanes, everyone slows down as they try and merge, and force the cars behind to slow as well. But the cars 200 m back up the road are still moving at normal speed untill they get to the merge.

I hope this makes sense

cheers

beeblebrox

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
2 Oct 2009 12:07PM
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When you swim, you move your hands forward in a pointy manner, then make it flat against the water in order to pull yourself forward into the fluid.

Pumping is no different. The forward motion goes with the sail as in-line with the apparent wind as possible. The pulling motion brings the sail in order to grab as much wind as possible.

In my racing days, some where just plain better than others, it was amazing. On same boards too. There are mainly only 2 variables: how 'square' you can bring the sail back to row into the wind, and the actual distance you can row in.

Much easier done than described though...

Mark _australia
WA, 22521 posts
2 Oct 2009 10:53AM
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I know Fancone can do it and isn't after tips, so on a tangent...I find some beginners have trouble with pumping and flap the sail around wildly with no effect. I call it pumping the fin or loading and unloading the fin and suddenly they find it much easier. All the above applies but there is also a lot to do with fin lift generation as well as apparent wind generation

Gestalt
QLD, 14428 posts
2 Oct 2009 1:08PM
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lumberjack alert!

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
2 Oct 2009 11:16AM
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As far as I can tell it's more about climbing the bow wave than anything else -- a good pump accelerates you up to speed, by which time you're light on your feet, falling down for your next pump, so the board doesn't have as much weight to resist it climbing the bow wave.

This explains why just bouncing the board can have a similar effect.

I've only recently learnt to pump properly, if anyone's having as much trouble as I was then the thing to remember is that it's all in the bum! If you keep the sail steady, and do your best approximation of a gigolo, you'll be off and planing in no time

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
2 Oct 2009 1:44PM
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nebbian said...

If you keep the sail steady, and do your best approximation of a gigolo, you'll be off and planing in no time


Please explain.


Mark _australia
WA, 22521 posts
2 Oct 2009 11:53AM
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pushing against the fin.... in out in out in out
plus lifting board up down up down up down

hip motion looks a lot like rootin

need a vid to explain?

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
2 Oct 2009 4:26PM
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Like a bird.

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
2 Oct 2009 5:07PM
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I'm not sure if my technique's right...especially after the 'rootin' comment!

The increased air flow definitely makes a diff, but I've found that by leaning back slightly when pumping, you're taking your weight off the board, which is (as mentioned also) equivalent to jumping, and as we know, reducing your weight = planing sooner (as he puts down 3 big macs).

This makes a huge difference, especially with modern (short/wide) boards which tend to 'pop' to the plane, and are either planing, or slogging.

If you're just off planing speed in marginal conditions, pumping the sail can turn a disastrous slogging nightmare into a top sesh!

nick0
NSW, 510 posts
2 Oct 2009 5:32PM
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only 3-4 pumps or this enough wind to keep u on plane i find ....also if u on plane and need to plane thru to next gust stay straped in bear away 2 .. this creates a greater angle for u to pump bounceing up and down to stay in front of ur bow wave like some one mentuned earliar

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
2 Oct 2009 5:34PM
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I'd like to give pumping a go, it sounds pretty good. A movie or series of pictures showing how one pumps one's body would probably save much frustration.

shear tip
NSW, 1125 posts
2 Oct 2009 6:27PM
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nick0
NSW, 510 posts
2 Oct 2009 6:48PM
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lol that is not sail pumping ... he is trying to balence as he in knee deep water on this board ... sail pumping is a hole body sail and board movement

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
2 Oct 2009 6:51PM
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One of the most truly boring Tube ever.

nick0
NSW, 510 posts
2 Oct 2009 6:52PM
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<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="
" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
after he comes out of his first jybe ... thats pumping ur sail .. on a wave boars with a 4msail its a lot faster ... watch as he gets further away the uper leach flopping back and forwards

nick0
NSW, 510 posts
2 Oct 2009 6:52PM
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.. im not sure how to put the video into the screen sorry

nick0
NSW, 510 posts
2 Oct 2009 6:54PM
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just youtube .. light wind formula sailing and u will find a suitable video

decrepit
WA, 12201 posts
2 Oct 2009 8:46PM
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Francone said...

>>>>>>

Another question I might ask is whether the floatation of the board (and the planing) is better in deeper water than in shallow water.

>>>>>> have to walk the board for about 200 yds until I reach deeper water, which is quite annoying.




This is ground effect, it reflects the bow wave back up increasing it's size, this makes subplaning less efficient and planing more efficient. It's more uphill to get over the bow wave, but once there, it's more downhill.

I think there are different ways of pumping, the sail can act like a birds wing, (big long oval strokes) or like a flipper, (just the back hand shaking the rear of the sail). A flexi wave fin can also act like a flipper by moving the tail of the board side to side. Bouncing the board in time with the pump, reduces wetted surface as the board comes up, this is when the power stroke with the sail should happen, with any luck when the board comes down it will be on top of the bow wave not behind it.

shark
WA, 361 posts
2 Oct 2009 10:38PM
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birds pump their wings to fly.

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
3 Oct 2009 1:13AM
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That white no-show Tube square nick0 posted was way more exciting than the Tube of that guy floating around.

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
2 Oct 2009 11:33PM
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Mark _australia said...

hip motion looks a lot like rootin

need a vid to explain?


I was really hoping that Mark would dig into his collection of vids to explain...

Instead I found this:

Mark _australia
WA, 22521 posts
2 Oct 2009 11:40PM
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I'm still filming it, my batt pack went flat.

I'll have it online tomorrow a.m

shoodbegood
VIC, 873 posts
4 Oct 2009 10:33PM
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It seems from Nebbians video that it is as much about 'feeling' when to stop pumping, and making a smooth transition into ya straps without letting the board fall back off the plane. I often 'tell' myself when I'm sailing that i've gotta take my opportunity to plane ,coz sometimes you miss it and end up shlogging for the whole run, spewin' about that lost chance to get going, whether it be that little wave run or an extra knot or two. Sometimes in marginal conditions you have to really concentrate to get going, then relax when you're off and running!

Francone
WA, 291 posts
6 Oct 2009 11:44PM
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Thank you Beeblebrox and pierrec45 and others for your explanations. It makes sense.I am one of those guys who can't,(literally can't ! ) do things unless he knows why. THere are still a couple of things, though, I'd like to understand :
1) Why pushing or even jumping ( pumping) on the board, as one of you said, helps planing ?

2) the rationale of creating pressure on the fin.
I understand that forward movement is the combination of two opposite forces, namely the lateral push ( or pull) of the wind on the sail and the presuure of the water on the daggerboard ( lateral resistance), but here it is the wind creating pressure. How can the sailor himself create similar pressure on the fin? Why does it help in lifting the board above the water, hence in planing? Is it it the same principle as in lateral resistance or something else?

Thank you
Francone,
Montreal Canada

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
7 Oct 2009 10:26AM
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I'm not sure on (2), but by jumping on the board, you're doing 2 things, getting air to pass under it, which breaks the drag (friction) caused by the water, hence allowing to 'pop' the board onto the plane...also it reduces your weight for a split second, which in most cases when you're just off planing will allow the board to lift also. Probably not scientific responses, but physics was never my strongest subject...I'm more a "if it works, then that's what you do" guy.

Maybe the pressure on the fin comment means that by putting pressure laterally, you're reducing the downward pressure (weight), and allowing lift??? To achieve this, you'd have to be committed to your harness, or boom, and have the sail leaning back, which is how I find is the best technique for pumping the sail anyways.



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"The physics of pumping the sail" started by Francone