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Forums > Windsurfing General

Vansters- anyone got MDF in their van?

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Created by Subsonic > 9 months ago, 14 Jan 2013
Subsonic
WA, 3209 posts
14 Jan 2013 7:20PM
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Was talking to my workmate today and mentioned that I'd used MDF (medium density fibreboard) for the bed in my van and he immediately recalled seeing two people getting a grilling on site, for cutting up a sheet of MDF in the middle of a workshop. Apparently its on par of danger with asbestos.

After a brief search on the interweb it appears that the bosses fears may not be entirley unfounded. if the interweb is to be believed, they use Urea formaldehyde in the resin they glue it together with. This wonderful substance is great for preserving organic material, and is also apparently carcinogenic.

The immediate problem (like asbestos) comes when you cut/break it releasing fibres into the air. The other problem is that it continually releases formaldehyde as the resin degrades slowly, the whole process is made worse by a hot, enclosed environment (like a hot van)

SOooooo, anyone know of some form of sheeting with great strength/stiffness to weight properties, sorta like MDF but not MDF? (just so you know, they use those same formaldehyde resins to glue plywood together, so thats out too) Or am I just being a wuss?

Chemtrails...... Nibiru is coming......... BLAH

Craig66
NSW, 2465 posts
14 Jan 2013 10:37PM
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What about plywood?

www.forest1.com/info/plywood/

Pel
WA, 66 posts
14 Jan 2013 7:38PM
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Its no different to having IKEA furniture in your house, or any other sort of furniture or flooring that contains formaldehyde (very common). Apparently if you leave it outside (undercover) for a month or two then it fumes out and your all sweet.

Having said that, I used marine ply in my van because sometimes when the mattress is out I put wet gear straight onto the bed base and I want it to last. Probably a bit overkill though really.

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
14 Jan 2013 10:39PM
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Coming from a joinery background and breathing in tonnes of mdf dust over a 20 year period I have concerns about future repercussions on my own health.

I wouldn't use mdf in a van for moisture reasons as it breaks down over time. As you mentioned though, most plywood has formaldehyde resins in them. Also, many timber species have natural toxins in them.

Imo, you can't beat formply for a good structural panel. If you're worried about the dust - wear a good mask and give the cut edges a coat of paint.

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
14 Jan 2013 10:51PM
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Pel said...
Its no different to having IKEA furniture in your house, or any other sort of furniture or flooring that contains formaldehyde (very common). Apparently if you leave it outside (undercover) for a month or two then it fumes out and your all sweet.

Having said that, I used marine ply in my van because sometimes when the mattress is out I put wet gear straight onto the bed base and I want it to last. Probably a bit overkill though really.


You're right with mentioning pre-fab cabinetry. We (Aus) actually have a very good manufacturing standard when it comes to plywoods, melamine and mdf. You will see the letters 'LFE' (low formaldehyde emission) on all Aussie board... unfortunately though, overseas manufacturers don't have the same stringent standards and although you can't purchase non-LFE board in Aus, you can buy flat pack joinery that has levels of formaldehyde levels way above our max allowed levels. I remember cutting down and joining a couple of Bunnings benchtops for a client once - my apprentice got a blood nose and I was crook for 2 days.

sideskirt
328 posts
14 Jan 2013 11:42PM
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I used plywood made of poplar wood...which is 440kg/m3 a bit over half the weight compared to standard plywood....

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
15 Jan 2013 9:51AM
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Another option is OSB (oriented strand board). Although it is slightly heavier than plywood, it's also stronger therefore a thinner sheet can be used...and it looks cool!

leenis
SA, 34 posts
15 Jan 2013 1:11PM
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When I did my apprenticeship in wood machining, the only concerns mentioned were with the dust when cutting. There are plenty of caravans with MDF structures and they get stinking hot. There are companies that do draw fit outs in for 4WD vehicles in MDF as well.

As sailhack has mentioned, MDF and other manufactured board are easily damaged by water. Even the waterproof\resistant boards can be damaged as the timber can get still get water in it. The expansion and shrinkage of the wood fibres can crack the glue have similar effect in edges blowing. This will be considerabley less than standard MDF though.

A good coat of paint or varnish will seal the board providing further protection from moisture. This should also prevent any further air getting in or out.

felixdcat
WA, 3519 posts
15 Jan 2013 12:49PM
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Be sure to keep the wife PMS out of the van! Releases bad energy!

slammin
QLD, 998 posts
15 Jan 2013 3:03PM
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I'm def' no expert but wouldn't MDF be a lot heavier. I'd use plywood.

Subsonic
WA, 3209 posts
15 Jan 2013 6:58PM
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Im still of two minds about what to do with it....

Its already in the van, and It'll certainly do the job structure wise. Im aware its not gonna last as long as other materials with the moisture in the van, but it'll last long enough. Dont know whether to pull it out and paint it, or do away with it all together and put something else in. Like Pel said, a lot of Ikea furniture is made from MDF and its general use is in the house hold...

OSB sounds promising Sail Hack, I'll look into that

Subsonic
WA, 3209 posts
15 Jan 2013 7:09PM
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slammin said...
I'm def' no expert but wouldn't MDF be a lot heavier. I'd use plywood.


You'd think so, but I can tell you from doing a wobble test when I was looking at what to use, that MDF is if nothing else significantly stiffer than an equivalent thickness in plywood.

What amazes me is that anyone can wonder into a hardware and buy a piece of MDF and theres no warning what so ever as to the dangers of cutting it up etc. If I'd known about it I would've ruled it out straight away

FormulaNova
WA, 14880 posts
15 Jan 2013 7:56PM
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I used hardwood ply for the bed base when I fitted out my van. It had no twist in it, which I couldn't say for the other ply. I think I used 19mm, but it was so long ago I can't remember.

It held up very well, whereas I am sure the normal ply would have needed some reinforcement.

I used it recently to make a door for my garage, and it was still in good condition. I doubt MDF would last, just on its vulnerability to water.

FormulaNova
WA, 14880 posts
15 Jan 2013 8:02PM
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Subsonic said...

What amazes me is that anyone can wonder into a hardware and buy a piece of MDF and theres no warning what so ever as to the dangers of cutting it up etc. If I'd known about it I would've ruled it out straight away


Try getting Bunnings to cut it, and you find out that they won't. I suspect that it is probably more of a risk if you are cutting it a lot, and even then, are there proven problems with it?

fjdoug
ACT, 548 posts
16 Jan 2013 9:03AM
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my wife, Chemical Amy, says if the MDF was made in the last 5 years there would be no risk.

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
16 Jan 2013 11:54AM
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fjdoug said...
my wife, Chemical Amy, says if the MDF was made in the last 5 years there would be no risk.


Prob should say 'very little' risk, but she's right in that the emissions have reduced...sorry to bore those that don't have an interest, but I spent so much time working with this sh!t over the past 20 years that it does interest me. I'm thankful after looking at the graphs below that my exposure to these emissions only really kicked in after '94, but still fairly worrying.

In regard to hardware stores cutting the sheets (which most of the public have gotten done at one point during building or renovating) - a MSDS is supplied with pack lots only, once the pack is broken & cut, there is no requirement to provide a MSDS to the buyer - unless you ask for one. Many European countries have fully-sealed & airlocked booths for the cutting & very strict dust extraction regulations...not in Aus unfortunately.

http://www.lawdex.com.au/resources/pdf-files/whiteboard_mdf_substrate_msds.pdf

Pictures (graph) paints a thousand words - from;

www.nicnas.gov.au/Publications/CAR/PEC/PEC28/PEC_28_Full_Report_PDF.pdf




SOLIDRacks
3 posts
16 Jan 2013 1:48PM
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Victor B
WA, 130 posts
19 Jan 2013 11:36PM
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Ever thought about a tent or a hammock Maybe rent a room somewhere? Toxins are everywhere

BenKirk
NSW, 600 posts
20 Jan 2013 11:30AM
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FormulaNova said...
Subsonic said...

What amazes me is that anyone can wonder into a hardware and buy a piece of MDF and theres no warning what so ever as to the dangers of cutting it up etc. If I'd known about it I would've ruled it out straight away


Try getting Bunnings to cut it, and you find out that they won't. I suspect that it is probably more of a risk if you are cutting it a lot, and even then, are there proven problems with it?




Bunnings cut three sheets of MDF for me yesterday, so that's not entirely accurate. Sorry.

FormulaNova
WA, 14880 posts
20 Jan 2013 9:11AM
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BenKirk said...
FormulaNova said...
Subsonic said...

What amazes me is that anyone can wonder into a hardware and buy a piece of MDF and theres no warning what so ever as to the dangers of cutting it up etc. If I'd known about it I would've ruled it out straight away


Try getting Bunnings to cut it, and you find out that they won't. I suspect that it is probably more of a risk if you are cutting it a lot, and even then, are there proven problems with it?




Bunnings cut three sheets of MDF for me yesterday, so that's not entirely accurate. Sorry.



No need to be sorry. I don't mind if you got lucky. I don't pretend to have full knowledge of all Bunnings stores and whether they have consistent policies.

I found at my local store that they wouldn't cut MDF or particle board.

r2908
NSW, 214 posts
20 Jan 2013 1:03PM
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Bunnings never cut . Mdf, or dry wall for me , would make life easier if they did ...

r2908
NSW, 214 posts
20 Jan 2013 1:08PM
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Hope its not toxic .. I just walled a bedroom with it ... Gives the best painted finish I reckon

Subsonic
WA, 3209 posts
20 Jan 2013 10:51AM
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Victor B said...
Ever thought about a tent or a hammock Maybe rent a room somewhere? Toxins are everywhere


Yep, there's quite a number of things that'll kill me before the mdf will, Im sure there's a little bit of bad in everything (if you look close enough).



Issa
355 posts
24 Jan 2013 3:25PM
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Pel said...
Its no different to having IKEA furniture in your house, or any other sort of furniture or flooring that contains formaldehyde (very common). Apparently if you leave it outside (undercover) for a month or two then it fumes out and your all sweet.

Having said that, I used marine ply in my van because sometimes when the mattress is out I put wet gear straight onto the bed base and I want it to last. Probably a bit overkill though really.


Varnished marine grade ply is working well in the back of my van. Looks sweet too. Wikipedia tells me there are formaldehyde issues with plywood. Can't win, may as well take up smoking. "Plywood for indoor use generally uses the less expensive urea-formaldehyde glue, which has limited water resistance, while outdoor and marine-grade plywood are designed to withstand rot, and use a water resistant phenol-formaldehyde glue to prevent delamination and to retain strength in high humidity. The adhesives used in plywood have become a point of concern. Both urea formaldehyde and phenol formaldehyde are carcinogenic in very high concentrations."

starboarder
QLD, 187 posts
24 Jan 2013 5:45PM
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if cutting is out of question what about sanding for repaint? is this risky?

P.C_simpson
NSW, 1489 posts
24 Jan 2013 9:44PM
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Mines 6mm hardwood form ply, super strong and water proof. 40mm X 40mm Aluminium cross beams, only need 4 as the 6mm ply don't flex..

sideskirt
328 posts
25 Jan 2013 4:28PM
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Plywood shouldn't be such a risk all major caravan and motorhome builders use plywood for their furniture...I find it very hard to believe it would be such a threat.

Subsonic
WA, 3209 posts
25 Jan 2013 9:00PM
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sideskirt said...
Plywood shouldn't be such a risk all major caravan and motorhome builders use plywood for their furniture...I find it very hard to believe it would be such a threat.


From my reading what Issa said is correct. They use phenol-formaldehyde glue in the higher grade plywood, which is less of a threat. They use urea- formaldehyde in the low grade stuff though.

Im sure plywood in general is better to use than MDF, as the glue runs between the sheets as opposed to through the whole volume of a sheet of MDF. Still a good idea to mask up whilst cutting and at least seal the edges up, Im guessing......



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"Vansters- anyone got MDF in their van?" started by Subsonic