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World Speed Record - rejected (proves kiting is !@

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Created by Rad Lad > 9 months ago, 25 Nov 2008
Rad Lad
226 posts
25 Nov 2008 1:18PM
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This straight off the Boardseeker website:

Well the speed world is all over the place at the moment with the news that the kiting record of 50.57 by Alexandre Caizergues and the ground breaking 50+kt run of Sebastien Cattelan DO NOT count for the official sailing speed records. In an ISAF meeting it was decided that kite powered craft could not be recognised as the holder of the World Sailing Speed record.

Now we windsurfers dont always see eye to eye with the kiters, but credit where credit is due, they broke the 50kts, and however you look at things they are powered solely by the wind.

To add further to the controversy, it seems nobody can really explain why. The ISAF say a kite is not a sail. However their definition of a sail is:

A sail is any type of surface intended to generate thrust by being placed in a wind—in essence a vertically-oriented wing.

Back in the 70's Jacobs ladder made numerous attempts at the record using a stack of flexifoils attached to a boat and it was considered one of the great innovations of the speed sailing world. Now 30 years later it seems kites are sails?

So now the race is still on to break the 50 kts. Antoine, Finian, Bjorn and Whitey can all strap up their speed boards again and get back out on the course. Not sure how victorious they will feel however.

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
25 Nov 2008 6:22PM
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There's a sail, and an edge. I recognise it.

Perhaps the ISAF is trying to prevent people like the "Jackass" crew from just attaching a kite to a rubber tube and going out in a cyclone, which is a shame really.

Wet Willy
TAS, 2316 posts
25 Nov 2008 8:52PM
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Let's look at it another way:

If you took a fully-rigged windsurf sail, detached it from the mastfoot, and somehow "flew" it up in the air on 20 metre lines, so it dragged you along below...is that sailing?

If you took a kitesurf kite without lines, fastened one corner of the leading edge directly to a board, and put a boom around it and rode the board like a windsurfer...is that kiting?

A sail or a kite can be made of carbon or cloth or plastic or even wood, and can come in all manner of crazy shapes, but it's still clear what is a sail is and what is a kite.

So kites can have the world speed kiting record and windsurfers can have the world speed sailing record! Hurrah!

CJW
NSW, 1718 posts
25 Nov 2008 9:19PM
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As I wrote in the GPS section

As a windsurfer I also would love for someone from our sport to hold the outright world sailing speed record, but as far as i'm concerned that's no longer the case and in my opinion we will never again hold the record.

Lets be realistic this is the 'outright world record' It's not the 'fastest windsurfer' record. The number of radical contraptions that have had a crack at the record over time is staggering. Look at Yellow Pages, it's basically a wing on it's end sitting atop of what can hardly be considered a function sailing craft as we know one. It can only sail in one direction, only sail at particular angles of attack and apart from a couple of locations in the world is utterly useless. At least anyone can go down to the kite shop, grab a kite and a board (ok maybe modify the board) and have a crack at the world speed record.

It's the world speed sailing record, as far as i'm concerned almost anything goes, a kite is hardly bordering on the radical.

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
25 Nov 2008 9:25PM
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The main problem kiters face is no one really likes kites except kiters.

So they may win out in the bay but they lose politically every time.

elmo
WA, 8732 posts
25 Nov 2008 9:26PM
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It's a furken big yacht full of bollocks.

The kiters jumped through the hoops and leapt over barriers set up by the officialdom and still wiped the floor.

Then after the dust is settled they move the goal posts once again.

The Kiting crew know that Alex has done the biz
The Windsurfing crew (apart from those sailing on De-nile) know that Alex has done the biz.
The officials know that know that Alex has done the biz.

They just don't want to acknowledge it and put it out of range of the froggy boat.

HTFU princess's, Give Alex the recognition he deserves

NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
25 Nov 2008 10:36PM
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elmo said...


.....
They just don't want to acknowledge it and put it out of range of the froggy boat.
.....


There you have it.

hardie
WA, 4083 posts
25 Nov 2008 9:36PM
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elmo said...

It's a furken big yacht full of bollocks.

The kiters jumped through the hoops and leapt over barriers set up by the officialdom and still wiped the floor.

Then after the dust is settled they move the goal posts once again.

The Kiting crew know that Alex has done the biz
The Windsurfing crew (apart from those sailing on De-nile) know that Alex has done the biz.
The officials know that know that Alex has done the biz.

They just don't want to acknowledge it and put it out of range of the froggy boat.

HTFU princess's, Give Alex the recognition he deserves



Maybe it's got something to do with daylight savings?

elmo
WA, 8732 posts
25 Nov 2008 9:41PM
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hardie said...

elmo said...

It's a furken big yacht full of bollocks.

The kiters jumped through the hoops and leapt over barriers set up by the officialdom and still wiped the floor.

Then after the dust is settled they move the goal posts once again.

The Kiting crew know that Alex has done the biz
The Windsurfing crew (apart from those sailing on De-nile) know that Alex has done the biz.
The officials know that know that Alex has done the biz.

They just don't want to acknowledge it and put it out of range of the froggy boat.

HTFU princess's, Give Alex the recognition he deserves



Maybe it's got something to do with daylight savings?



Most likely, peoples have been right strange of late

Wet Willy
TAS, 2316 posts
26 Nov 2008 12:03AM
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How about Bender's 60 knot catapault? That was wind powered!

elmo
WA, 8732 posts
25 Nov 2008 10:08PM
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T'was only a 2 sec peak just before he made a Bender sized dent in the Mandurah estuary

NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
26 Nov 2008 12:25AM
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100 knot catapult.

nobody
NSW, 437 posts
26 Nov 2008 2:12AM
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Rad Lad said...

This straight off the Boardseeker website:

...

To add further to the controversy, it seems nobody can really explain why. The ISAF say a kite is not a sail. However their definition of a sail is:

A sail is any type of surface intended to generate thrust by being placed in a wind—in essence a vertically-oriented wing.


Back in the 70's Jacobs ladder made numerous attempts at the record using a stack of flexifoils attached to a boat and it was considered one of the great innovations of the speed sailing world. Now 30 years later it seems kites are sails?

So now the race is still on to break the 50 kts. Antoine, Finian, Bjorn and Whitey can all strap up their speed boards again and get back out on the course. Not sure how victorious they will feel however.


Since I've been called on to explain why:
ISAF say a kite is not a sail. However their definition of a sail is:

"A sail is any type of surface intended to generate thrust by being placed in a wind—in essence a vertically-oriented wing."

Simple, a kite is not a "vertically-orientated wing". You don't see birds flying around with big bags on each side with strings attached, do you?






DL
WA, 658 posts
26 Nov 2008 8:18AM
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How about a glider? Gliders are powered by wind. And what if the glider was dragging a kiteboard in the water behind it? Is that sailing?

Wet Willy
TAS, 2316 posts
26 Nov 2008 11:28AM
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"VERTICALLY-ORIENTED!" There you have it. So be careful not to lean your rig over more than 45 degrees or you will be classed as horizontally oriented.

Wet Willy
TAS, 2316 posts
26 Nov 2008 11:30AM
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I had vegetarian mexican food last night. I'm powered by wind today - is that sailing?

NR
WA, 516 posts
26 Nov 2008 9:49AM
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How about kitersurfers are not considered a sailing vessel (just speculating) as they have a kite, that is completly independently from the board, and only attached togeather via the rider. There is no connection between the kite and the board. Its almost like 2 different objects. I am just wondering if ISAF are thinking along these lines.

Whats would be the difference between a modified paraglider, with more forward pull, trawling a thin line in the water, or even dragging a small tray along the water ?

Leman
VIC, 672 posts
26 Nov 2008 11:56AM
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NotWal said...

100 knot catapult.



Bloody cool!! However I really hope that person screaming is a girl.

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
26 Nov 2008 12:19PM
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NR said...

How about kitersurfers are not considered a sailing vessel (just speculating) as they have a kite, that is completly independently from the board, and only attached togeather via the rider. There is no connection between the kite and the board. Its almost like 2 different objects. I am just wondering if ISAF are thinking along these lines.

Whats would be the difference between a modified paraglider, with more forward pull, trawling a thin line in the water, or even dragging a small tray along the water ?


Yes, you could have a waterskier waiting by the waters edge. A glider comes overhead at a rapid rate of knots trailing a rope, the waterskier grabs the rope and gets towed along. Instant world record!

sick_em_rex
NSW, 1600 posts
26 Nov 2008 12:44PM
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except the waterskier has his shoulders ripped out of their sockets through the sudden jerking action.....I think not.

Leman
VIC, 672 posts
26 Nov 2008 12:53PM
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mmmm hanggliding... Think that is the only sport I might like better than windsurfing. One day maybe when some relative dies and leaves me a fortune.

Wet Willy
TAS, 2316 posts
26 Nov 2008 1:06PM
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Leman said...

mmmm hanggliding... Think that is the only sport I might like better than windsurfing. One day maybe when some relative dies and leaves me a fortune.


But then you'd have even more to lose, should your hang glider crash...better to risk your life now while you're still poor!

Rad Lad
226 posts
26 Nov 2008 11:24AM
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NotWal said...

100 knot catapult.




I see you have discovered one of my home videos

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
26 Nov 2008 1:41PM
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sick_em_rex said...

except the waterskier has his shoulders ripped out of their sockets through the sudden jerking action.....I think not.


Perhaps not a waterskier then. Maybe have someone in a capsule of some sort with the passenger inside, in the water with a big hook up the top. The glider trails an elastic rope which hooks to the capsule and then drags the capsule along.

Not really the details that count in this or my original post. They are purely thought experiments of a logical extension of the way a kite, a kiter and a kiteboard are connected to each other.

If a gliding craft is considered to be a sailing craft then it opens up so many possibilities of record breaking vehicles.


Leman
VIC, 672 posts
26 Nov 2008 2:15PM
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Mobydisc said...

If a gliding craft is considered to be a sailing craft then it opens up so many possibilities of record breaking vehicles.




Totally agree but perhaps someone should have told them that kites are excluded before they even bothered making the attempt. It's not like you can fail to see a kite. It's like waving the carrot then ripping it out of their mouth.

sick_em_rex
NSW, 1600 posts
26 Nov 2008 3:25PM
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Mobydisc said...

sick_em_rex said...

except the waterskier has his shoulders ripped out of their sockets through the sudden jerking action.....I think not.


Perhaps not a waterskier then. Maybe have someone in a capsule of some sort with the passenger inside, in the water with a big hook up the top. The glider trails an elastic rope which hooks to the capsule and then drags the capsule along.

Not really the details that count in this or my original post. They are purely thought experiments of a logical extension of the way a kite, a kiter and a kiteboard are connected to each other.

If a gliding craft is considered to be a sailing craft then it opens up so many possibilities of record breaking vehicles.





A glider is an incredibly lightweight vehicle, hence why it is able to utilise thermal updrafts to stay afloat rather than using jet or prop engine propulsion. (along with its wingspan) The effect of it trailing a rope for a waterskier or a pod as you put it to hook onto would virtually pull the thing out of the sky let alone damage the crap out of whatever it was trying to pull.
Sure, it's a thought extension but not a very logical one.

DL
WA, 658 posts
26 Nov 2008 1:48PM
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sick_em_rex said...
A glider is an incredibly lightweight vehicle, hence why it is able to utilise thermal updrafts to stay afloat rather than using jet or prop engine propulsion. (along with its wingspan) The effect of it trailing a rope for a waterskier or a pod as you put it to hook onto would virtually pull the thing out of the sky let alone damage the crap out of whatever it was trying to pull.
Sure, it's a thought extension but not a very logical one.


The glider only has to go 500m before crashing. I'm sure it could handle the weight of one extra person for that distance.

tightlines
WA, 3477 posts
26 Nov 2008 3:40PM
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As I posted in the kiting forum.

tightlines said...

So when a yacht puts up a spinnaker (kite) is it still sailing or is it now kiting?



I agree with sunseeker

sunseeker said...

I don't think that a kite is a sail either but that is not the object of the exercise. The object is to be propelled across the surface of water under the power of wind i.e. sailing.





NR
WA, 516 posts
26 Nov 2008 4:12PM
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I think we are not trying to discuss the actual technicalities on how it would be done. Its just to bring up the point, when does it stop becoming "sailing", instead of something being dragged along the water with as little friction as possible by a flying machine.

I think ISAF may just be drawing a line here. But who knows exactly where it is and why. But also agree that its ashame that its done after the event. But I suppose out of the 2 options, a) back track and disqualify the kites and set new guidelines, or b) open up a whole can of worms for the future of the sailing record, they probably chose the best option. Who knows.

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
26 Nov 2008 6:22PM
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sick_em_rex said...
A glider is an incredibly lightweight vehicle, hence why it is able to utilise thermal updrafts to stay afloat rather than using jet or prop engine propulsion. (along with its wingspan) The effect of it trailing a rope for a waterskier or a pod as you put it to hook onto would virtually pull the thing out of the sky let alone damage the crap out of whatever it was trying to pull.
Sure, it's a thought extension but not a very logical one.


Think more harderer:



"During the descent and landing, the shuttle orbiter acts as a glider..."

Now we're talking a speed record.
Just needs a bloody long rope (see space elevator) and a device to accelerate the attached windsurfer to speed gradually using gears or similar contraption.

"The vehicle starts encountering more significant air density in the lower thermosphere at about 400,000 ft (120 km), at around Mach 25"

We could go further:

If the rope were long enough (see space elevator) and the technology existed for a sun powered space sail (www.wired.com/2005/05/testing-a-sun-powered-space-sail/) we could get our attached windsurfer to, well fast:

"While its thrust is low, it would be continuous so the craft accelerates steadily, eventually reaching speeds of tens of thousands of miles an hour. Changing the sail's angle to the sun would allow the craft to slow down or speed up."

Still sailing?

See also "The Wind From The Sun", Arthur C. Clarke, 1963
www.amazon.com/Wind-Sun-Signet-Arthur-Clarke/dp/0451147545

</silliness>

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
26 Nov 2008 7:05PM
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evlPanda said...

Think more harderer:





Thats what I'm talking about
Anyway the whole point of thought experiments is to push logical limits, not get bogged down in technicalities, engineers will sort them out later. If a guy holding onto a kite and is strapped to a board can claim the world speed sailing record then why can't a guy bouncing along behind some kind of glider claim the record too?

This is just a bit fun for me anyway coz I'm bored. Please don't take me too seriously coz I am not.



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"World Speed Record - rejected (proves kiting is !@" started by Rad Lad