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fin culture

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Created by gavnwend > 9 months ago, 8 Apr 2013
gavnwend
WA, 1366 posts
8 Apr 2013 8:37PM
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Does anyone know wheather l can change the length of my fin without making too stiff or taking away the twist of the foil lm only talking about 5 cm.the fin is a goldwing 44 cm .slalom thanks let me know before l go ahead.

Mark _australia
WA, 22427 posts
8 Apr 2013 8:43PM
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as long as you maintain the thinning toward the tip - so after you cut it you'll need to take quite a lot of thickness out of the last 5-6cm.
that will mean re-foiling that last bit too, so take note where the max thickness is (as it is a percentage of chord so is not say 20mm from the leading edge all the way down.

gavnwend
WA, 1366 posts
8 Apr 2013 9:06PM
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Thanks sounds logical about keeping the chord the same thickness . Cheers!

CRO169
44 posts
9 Apr 2013 5:48AM
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I've had it done with several fins, but do not touch the tip, just remove the old box and make a new box! That way you can even re-rake a fin if you need or want to!
Marko

Sputnik11
VIC, 972 posts
9 Apr 2013 10:09AM
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CRO169 said...
I've had it done with several fins, but do not touch the tip, just remove the old box and make a new box! That way you can even re-rake a fin if you need or want to!
Marko


How did you rebox it?

pepe47
WA, 1381 posts
9 Apr 2013 10:43AM
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I've done quite a number of fins, exactly the way Mark describes and for the life of me can't understand why the red thumbs?!
If you follow the chord ratio, why not??

Mark _australia
WA, 22427 posts
9 Apr 2013 2:04PM
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I want to know how re-boxing makes it shorter?

Sure you can cut the base off and re-box .....but then you just have a shorter fin - it will be stiffer and thus not twist as much.
If that effect is what you want to achieve then fine..... but if he cuts 5cm off the base of a 44cm goldwing and reboxes it he will not have the same thing as a 39cm goldwing.

I assumed it had tip dmage anyway...?

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
9 Apr 2013 2:48PM
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Mark _australia said...
I want to know how re-boxing makes it shorter?

Sure you can cut the base off and re-box .....but then you just have a shorter fin - it will be stiffer and thus not twist as much.
If that effect is what you want to achieve then fine..... but if he cuts 5cm off the base of a 44cm goldwing and reboxes it he will not have the same thing as a 39cm goldwing.

I assumed it had tip dmage anyway...?



I think it was lotofarts that red thumbed you, but I helped fix it

DunkO
NSW, 1144 posts
9 Apr 2013 5:20PM
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Mark _australia said...
I want to know how re-boxing makes it shorter?

Sure you can cut the base off and re-box .....but then you just have a shorter fin - it will be stiffer and thus not twist as much.
If that effect is what you want to achieve then fine..... but if he cuts 5cm off the base of a 44cm goldwing and reboxes it he will not have the same thing as a 39cm goldwing.

I assumed it had tip dmage anyway...?


Edit all my poor gramma, maybe thats where the confussion was.

The top has more flex than than the bottom, so if you take from the bottom you end up with a flexier fin than if you took from the top.

Saves you a great deal of sanding, wouldn't it?

pepe47
WA, 1381 posts
9 Apr 2013 3:27PM
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DunkO said...
Mark _australia said...
I want to know how re-boxing makes it shorter?

Sure you can cut the base off and re-box .....but then you just have a shorter fin - it will be stiffer and thus not twist as much.
If that effect is what you want to achieve then fine..... but if he cuts 5cm off the base of a 44cm goldwing and reboxes it he will not have the same thing as a 39cm goldwing.

I assumed it had tip dmage anyway...?



The top is has more flex than than the bottom so if you take from the bottom you end with a flexier fin than if you took from the top.

Save you a great deal of sanding wouldn't it?



Believe it or not, it will actually be stiffer. Get an old ruler, flex it, cut it in half and try again.

DunkO
NSW, 1144 posts
9 Apr 2013 5:47PM
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HA HA, yes of coarse it will be stiffer,

but it will be less stiff if you cut the bottom rather than the top, Excluding any sanding you may do later.

DunkO
NSW, 1144 posts
9 Apr 2013 5:48PM
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a ruler is not tapered in thickness and width.

DunkO
NSW, 1144 posts
9 Apr 2013 5:50PM
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And truely the stiffness will be identical on the shorter ruler you will just have less leverage to bend it with.

DunkO
NSW, 1144 posts
9 Apr 2013 6:03PM
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before you start sanding, which new fin will be stiffer??

pepe47
WA, 1381 posts
9 Apr 2013 5:04PM
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Timewise, I can sand a fin down and maintain the chord ratio in about 1-2 hours. To rebox it will take about a day, allowing for the resin to cure properly. Then it's a matter of drilling and fixing the barrel nuts.
What I'm reading into Gavn's original question is can it be done without having to rebox it.

keef
NSW, 2016 posts
9 Apr 2013 7:34PM
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the best way to refoil it is too sand both sides along the thickest part of the foil, flat, when you have both side exactly the same roll the corners off to the leading edge, then repeat the other side , then sand the to the trailing edge, if you try too foil one side at a time its hard to keep it symmetrical

Chris Ting
NSW, 302 posts
9 Apr 2013 7:50PM
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I'd recommend rebasing. You're not going be anywhere near as accurate re-foiling the tip as the original CNC machine.

You dont have to cut off the entire head, just grind off the base front and sides so that a new base can be re-molded onto it at whichever length you desire. Of course you'll cut off any unsed length from the base.

Mark _australia
WA, 22427 posts
9 Apr 2013 5:54PM
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DunkO said...



before you start sanding, which new fin will be stiffer??


Irrelevant - as you said "before you start sanding" and nobody would use number 3 with just a blunt cut and thus a 10mm thick tip.

My point is
he has number 1
He wants a shorter fin.

If you do number 2, which is just cutting the base off, yes you have a shorter fin but it is now so much stiffer with more draft at the base. It will not feel the same as the next size down in that fin design.

If you do number 3 (cut the tip) and shape it correctly it will be more like the next fin size down.

gavnwend
WA, 1366 posts
9 Apr 2013 6:03PM
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Thank you all for your opinions l have decided to take 5 cm from the bottom & do what Mark suggests. I dont think by doing this it will have any adverce effect of changing the characteristics of my tectonics fin!

Chris Ting
NSW, 302 posts
9 Apr 2013 8:09PM
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Mark _australia said...
DunkO said...



before you start sanding, which new fin will be stiffer??


Irrelevant - as you said "before you start sanding" and nobody would use number 3 with just a blunt cut and thus a 10mm thick tip.

My point is
he has number 1
He wants a shorter fin.

If you do number 2, which is just cutting the base off, yes you have a shorter fin but it is now so much stiffer with more draft at the base. It will not feel the same as the next size down in that fin design.

If you do number 3 (cut the tip) and shape it correctly it will be more like the next fin size down.


I respectfully disagree with this. The chord thickness percentage won't change as you cut off the base. The thickness of these fins is around 9% of the chord/width, which means the max thickness of the fin at any point along the fin is 9% of the chord at that point of the fin.

Cutting the tip off will leave you with longer chords/width relative to the next size down, which will mean the entire fin will be thicker then the next size down, compared to shortening the fin by cutting off the base.

You'd have to refoil the entire fin to then get the stiffness down and get the taper ratio correct to be even close to the next size down fin, and you'd end up with a handfoiled fin, which would be inferior to the original CNC'ed fin.

Mark _australia
WA, 22427 posts
9 Apr 2013 6:24PM
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^^ but Chris how you refute my argument also refutes yours.... cutting the base off has the same effect - as you still have a fin that is thicker in draft compared to it's length either way you do it.

My issue was with Dunk0's question "which will be stiffer?" and I propose that is irrelevant to this discussion as nobody would cut the fin like in #3 and then go use it.

I maintain the best way to shorten is to cut the tip off and reshape as you can take thickness out as far up as you desire..... whereas just cutting at the base and reboxing makes it stiffer and introduces errors (is it now perpendicular? is it in line with the board? etc etc)

gavnwend
WA, 1366 posts
9 Apr 2013 6:28PM
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I think l will keep the 44 cm fin as it is& buy a talon tectonics 39 cm these fins are made by professional people as I dont want to stuff it up

pepe47
WA, 1381 posts
9 Apr 2013 6:32PM
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Chris Ting said...
I'd recommend rebasing. You're not going be anywhere near as accurate re-foiling the tip as the original CNC machine.

You dont have to cut off the entire head, just grind off the base front and sides so that a new base can be re-molded onto it at whichever length you desire. Of course you'll cut off any unsed length from the base.



5 cm removes the whole box! Unless of course it's a deep tuttle, and I don't think a goldwing 44 comes in deep tuttle.

dan berry
WA, 2562 posts
9 Apr 2013 6:39PM
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Haha great idea. Then you have 2 fins to choose from. I'm sure the debate will continue regardless [}:)]

decrepit
WA, 12166 posts
9 Apr 2013 7:30PM
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I can see the merits of both methods.
If you're unsure of your hand foiling abilities reboxing, ensures the original foil.
If you're good at hand foiling, as Pepe says, cutting the fin down is quicker.

We have very abrasive weed here, so refoiling and reboxing happen on a regular basis.

With the help of a tilers profile gauge it's possible to get the foil almost as close as top quality CNCd fins.

I use a small angle grinder with sanding pad to do most of the rough work, (Pepe uses a belt sander). If I take a bit too much I bog the hollow with qcell and paint with automotive spray cans.

Chris Ting
NSW, 302 posts
9 Apr 2013 9:39PM
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Mark _australia said...
^^ but Chris how you refute my argument also refutes yours.... cutting the base off has the same effect - as you still have a fin that is thicker in draft compared to it's length either way you do it.

My issue was with Dunk0's question "which will be stiffer?" and I propose that is irrelevant to this discussion as nobody would cut the fin like in #3 and then go use it.

I maintain the best way to shorten is to cut the tip off and reshape as you can take thickness out as far up as you desire..... whereas just cutting at the base and reboxing makes it stiffer and introduces errors (is it now perpendicular? is it in line with the board? etc etc)


Cutting the base gives you a thinner fin. ie If you cut fin 5cm off from the base, the fin has a narrower chord/width at the new base. So 9% of the narrower chord at 5cm up the fin, is thinner then 9% of the wider chord at the original base of the fin.

DunkO
NSW, 1144 posts
9 Apr 2013 10:25PM
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i have a 38 cm fin if you want 0409987764

DunkO
NSW, 1144 posts
9 Apr 2013 10:30PM
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chris, thankyou for shedding a bit of logic.
mark, the tip is the thin flexible bit why would you chop it off? sure you could sand a new fin out of the chunk of fin you have left but why would you not just thin down the top if you desired more flex.

personally both ways sounds like waytoo much work

DunkO
NSW, 1144 posts
9 Apr 2013 10:38PM
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DunkO said...
i have a 38 cm fin if you want 0409987764



c3 venom going cheap need a 32

Mark _australia
WA, 22427 posts
9 Apr 2013 8:48PM
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DunkO said...

personally both ways sounds like waytoo much work



Agreed on that one.

Re-boxing and getting it right is not as easy as it sounds.

Re-foiling takes a few fkups to get right, and makes you itch for about a week.

OTOH there is the happiness in making something....

OTOH #2 I can't believe the ground-off buggered-up fins that people discard, yet 10ml of JB Weld and 20mins work makes it good as new. Hmm... a $30 old beater to save buying a $180 new one works for me.

DunkO
NSW, 1144 posts
9 Apr 2013 10:53PM
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i have a quad with 14 and 10's

i want 13 qnd 9's

should i rebox them or sand them down.



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"fin culture" started by gavnwend