Search for a Location
  Clear Recents
Metro
South West
Central West
North West
  Surf Cameras
  Safety Bay Camera
Metro
North
Mid North
Illawarra
South Coast
Metro
West Coast
East Coast
Brisbane
Far North
Central Coast
Sunshine Coast
Gold Coast
Hobart
West Coast
North Coast
East Coast
Recent
Western Australia
New South Wales
Victoria
South Australia
Queensland
Northern Territory
Tasmania
  My Favourites
  Reverse Arrows
General
Gps & Speed Sailing
Wave Sailing
Foiling
Gear Reviews
Lost & Found
Windsurfing WA
Windsurfing NSW
Windsurfing QLD
Windsurfing Victoria
Windsurfing SA
Windsurfing Tasmania
General
Gear Reviews
Foiling
Newbies / Tips & Tricks
Lost & Found
Western Australia
New South Wales
Queensland
Victoria
South Australia
Tasmania
General
Foiling
Board Talk & Reviews
Wing Foiling
All
Windsurfing
Kitesurfing
Surfing
Longboarding
Stand Up Paddle
Wing Foiling
Sailing
  Active Topics
  Subscribed Topics
  Rules & Guidelines
Login
Lost My Details!
Join! (Its Free)
  Search for a Location
  Clear Recents
Metro
South West
Central West
North West
Surf Cameras
Safety Bay Camera
Metro
North
Mid North
Illawarra
South Coast
Metro
West Coast
East Coast
Brisbane
Far North
Central Coast
Sunshine Coast
Gold Coast
Hobart
West Coast
North Coast
East Coast
Recent
Western Australia
New South Wales
Victoria
South Australia
Queensland
Northern Territory
Tasmania
  My Favourites
  Reverse Arrows
All
Windsurfing
Kitesurfing
Surfing
Longboarding
Stand Up Paddle
Wing Foiling
Sailing
Active Topics
Subscribed Topics
Forum Rules
Login
Lost My Details!
Join! (Its Free)

Forums > Windsurfing General

lift myth debunked

Reply
Created by decrepit > 9 months ago, 25 Jan 2012
Macroscien
QLD, 6808 posts
7 Feb 2012 12:00AM
Thumbs Up

something is not right here..
vertical lift is created at expense of ..?
another force that could propel vehicle forward
so need to check if final is somehow beneficial at all
result will be again combination of everything again.

Macroscien
QLD, 6808 posts
7 Feb 2012 12:06AM
Thumbs Up

Gestalt said...

i know this fin theory stuff is based more around speed sailing etc, but thought i'd also mention,

in racing terms an increased lift of 6-7kg or i guess a weight reduction, in lighter winds would be of great benefit.

if not that easy, nothing like free lunch
that lifting force was create by expense ... lower lift etc
could be but as you look at hydrofoil fin experiment - such windsurfer is not faster at all ..forces to lift windsurfing board could be bigger that resistance of planning board

Gestalt
QLD, 14476 posts
7 Feb 2012 10:24AM
Thumbs Up

no it's not a free lunch but this is what michiel was referring to with regards context.

although the upward force is reducing the amount of sideways lift it is also allowing the board to plane earlier which then decreases hull drag so you go faster so the fin then creates more lift etc. it's a point of balancing the forces. you accelerate until the system reaches equalibrium. usually drag/aoa based. or you lose control and one force becomes dominant. staying in equalibrium is the most efficient

in the context of the system it is important to remember that the sail is not only applying a force sideways, it is applying a force forwards, downwards and backwards. the fin is also applying a force vertically, backwards, sideways and i gues forwards if you consider the nose of the board lifting. the board is applying a force upwards, forewards, sideways and backwards.

you can trim any of those forces purely by your stance. (except drag to a larger extent)

then there is buoyant force


Macroscien said...

Gestalt said...

i know this fin theory stuff is based more around speed sailing etc, but thought i'd also mention,

in racing terms an increased lift of 6-7kg or i guess a weight reduction, in lighter winds would be of great benefit.

if not that easy, nothing like free lunch
that lifting force was create by expense ... lower lift etc
could be but as you look at hydrofoil fin experiment - such windsurfer is not faster at all ..forces to lift windsurfing board could be bigger that resistance of planning board


Macroscien
QLD, 6808 posts
7 Feb 2012 12:35PM
Thumbs Up

Gestalt said...

sail is not only applying a force sideways, it is applying a force forwards, downwards and backwards.

that strike me yesterday the biggest omission in so far consideration and diagrams!
sail up force .
i think that i future key to drastic improvement in windsurfing ( any sail even kiter performance)
Sideways sail forces are limited by need of the system to keep balance.
Vertical forces are not limited by anything and what that means we could create sail as big as practically possible to drastically increase resultant forward vector.
So new concept of any sail or kite powered vehicle - water or land based- should put effort on creating downward force on the same principle that keep formula 1 cars sticking to the ground.
Since concept is quite interesting I will post it on another thread and to avoid messing too much on that one...


oldie
VIC, 356 posts
8 Feb 2012 11:31PM
Thumbs Up

Macroscien said...

Actually that is already proven technology to inject air bubbles underneath commercial ships to lower water resistance and save on fuel 10 to 15 %
. The same could be beneficial to sailboard....
I feel quite comfortable trailing white wash left by motorboat , but not sure yet if going any faster ...


Don't expect that the prop backwash will slow you down when you get within a few meters. You might end up in the boat with the fisherman as the board seems to leap forward

Regarding the flexi fin, I think that the fastest racer will maintain ZERO vertical lift.
He will store and release energy from the waves and thus maintain a constant speed. No accelleration or decelleration of the board means no lost energy, except from the sailor, but that is what he went to the gym for..


sailingkid
VIC, 60 posts
8 Feb 2012 11:38PM
Thumbs Up

On the topic of putting air under the board, the f2 guys did it on their formula and missile speed boards if i remember correctly in the early-mid 2000's just by having ducts in the deck that ran through to the bottom of the board resulting in air getting put underneath, in order to help the board release from the water.

Chris 249
NSW, 3431 posts
9 Feb 2012 5:27PM
Thumbs Up

That was done at the 1985 slalom worlds in Lake Garda by a Greek guy on the F2 team. I think he'd modified a Sunset.

The idea was old then - Craig Hughes did it with the 1977 Vee Jay dinghy champ Nu Hissy if I recall correctly (I was only a kid but I have the article somewhere).

It's one of the many things that people rediscover every few years.

fjdoug
ACT, 548 posts
9 Feb 2012 8:19PM
Thumbs Up

I think that f2 board was made by Boa, he had it at the sony '85?

saltiest1
NSW, 2510 posts
9 Feb 2012 11:29PM
Thumbs Up

ffs call simon anderson will ya?

KA360
NSW, 803 posts
14 Feb 2012 12:02AM
Thumbs Up

Chris 249 said...

That was done at the 1985 slalom worlds in Lake Garda by a Greek guy on the F2 team. I think he'd modified a Sunset.




fjdoug said...

I think that f2 board was made by Boa, he had it at the sony '85?


The BOER is still alive and well.
Its is not a modified sunset and not built by F2





The HYPERSONIC of 1984
It is 265 x 59 and about 90-95 l ,it used to weigh under 6kg
It was my do everthing board,especially early planing and jumping.
Have had to replace the finbox at least 10 times but.


About 5 years ago I moved the mast track back and installed a powerbox.
It is still an awesome board to ride even after 27 years and it can still out accelerate any board of that volume today!

Gestalt
QLD, 14476 posts
13 Feb 2012 11:30PM
Thumbs Up

now that is cool

it's basic shape looks very contemporary (ignoring the length).



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Windsurfing General


"lift myth debunked" started by decrepit