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response of full carbon vs. 30% carbon masts

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Created by Ian K > 9 months ago, 11 Jan 2013
evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
18 Jan 2013 3:01PM
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People in this thread will appreciate this document. Completely unrelated by the way.
ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19630011448.pdf

Waiting4wind
NSW, 1871 posts
18 Jan 2013 3:53PM
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evlPanda said...
People in this thread will appreciate this document. Completely unrelated by the way.
ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19630011448.pdf


I think I found an error in their calculation on the re entry point, do you think I should tell them!

Ian K
WA, 4055 posts
18 Jan 2013 2:38PM
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Good onya Evipanda, isn't rocket science great stuff, we can get onto that when we wrap this up. Amused to be blah, blah blahed by a fellow with the name of Reflex Films. Via youtube! that's pretty technical, why not carrier pigeon?

Anyway, given up on experiments for the moment my preloaded CK95 aparatus is now in 44 deg + sunshine.

Did find out that that when the CK95 is loaded up with 20 kgs, given a small disturbance, it keeps going for quite a while. Each amplitude is only a few percent less than the previous. But it goes at a much lower frequency, about 0.8 cps compared to the unloaded 4 cps. Close to what we'd expect with the frequency proportional to the inverse of the sqrt of mass.

Back to the unweighted masts.

The unloaded masts, although they both oscillate for a long time both lose a lot of amplitude on the first couple of cycles. I've done the calculations for the amount of energy lost due to wind drag. Doesn't quite add up. I calculated 0.15 joules would be lost in the first half cycle out of the 8.3 joules required to bend the mast to the initial position. A loss of 0.3 joules in 8.3 joules is equivalent to losing 3mm out of 170mm of amplitude due to air resistance in that first oscillation. Actual observations indicate it loses about 15 mm of amplitude in each of the first couple of oscillations. Lost damping!!! Where is it?

So damping, if there is some going on inside the mast material, I figure comes in 3 basic forms.

plain old friction - a constant mainly independant of speed.

viscous friction - as in lubricated bearings - linear with speed

and turbulent drag of a fluid - goes up with the square of speed

Any more?

So my problem is there's a rapid loss of amplitude in the first couple of cycles when the mast is oscillating quickly unloaded. Air resistance calculations can't explain the rapid loss. The heavily weighted mast does small scale oscillations without any dramatic losses of energy.


One explanation is that my wind resistance calculations are out. Maybe drag coefficient is much higher when passing through the turbulence of the previous oscillation? The wake will be moving to collide with the returning spring, drag is the square of this collision velocity, that will up things.


If, on the other hand, the friction intrinsic to the mast goes up linearly with velocity, and it was oscillating 5 times as fast when unloaded, the rate of energy dissipation would be up by a factor of 25, that could also explain it ?

So how do you pre load it without the extra mass that slows down the oscillations? Downhaul it with a piece of string with low air resistance. Bow and arrow style. Then lightly oscillate it in a direction perpendicular to the plane of the "bow". Will this differentiate between the 30% and 95% carbon masts? I'm worried it won't like the out of balance, you might have to bend two and link them together in a heart shape or it will wriggle out of the mounting.

Here's the CK95 loaded with 20kg, give it a little vertical oscillation and it just keeps bouncing at about 0.8 Hz for quite a while.








Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
18 Jan 2013 6:28PM
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^^^ Looks like you need to spend less time calculating bending moments & more time in the garden.

Ian K
WA, 4055 posts
18 Jan 2013 3:59PM
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Sailhack said...
^^^ Looks like you need to spend less time calculating bending moments & more time in the garden.



I can explain the backyard Sailhack. It's a bush regenerator's backyard. My day job is split between a chainsaw and a 10 litre pack of roundup.

Apart from the weedy fleabane, spear thistle and a couple of inkweeds in the background there's a whole lot of stuff native to the Illawarra coming up. Carex appressa to the left of photo, Parsonsia straminea is climbing up the veranda post, a bit of Poa labilliardieri to the left, Dichondra repens on the ground. My favourite is the Wonga vine that is making a start up the Cabbage Tree. I didn't plant it, the seed somehow got here.

It's encouraging that even after the beating mining and industrialisation has dealt the Illawarra the local native species still try and come back. Most people hit 'em with roundup and plant roses. That's my backyard the way I like it. ( Maybe I should pull out the fleabane, tomorrow maybe)

sailquik
VIC, 6094 posts
20 Jan 2013 12:32AM
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Like I said before: Bull**** marketing spin!

I must do that experiment comparing masts of the same MCS by loading them with another 10KG bag of lead shot..... ah Bug**r, I think I have shot it all off!! Looks like another trip to the Shot Tower...........

Anyhow, my backyard theory is that the larger diameter of the SDM lower tube section come under more stretching and compression resistance than the RDM section. I'll find a way to test it soon. It does not look like much wind next week anyhow.........

sailquik
VIC, 6094 posts
20 Jan 2013 12:41AM
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Waiting4wind said...
evlPanda said...
People in this thread will appreciate this document. Completely unrelated by the way.
ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19630011448.pdf


I think I found an error in their calculation on the re entry point, do you think I should tell them!

Yeah! I ran it over my pocket calculator and make the impact point right next to the Oodnadatta pub!

Ian K
WA, 4055 posts
20 Jan 2013 12:33PM
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sailquik said...
Like I said before: Bull**** marketing spin!

I must do that experiment comparing masts of the same MCS by loading them with another 10KG bag of lead shot..... ah Bug**r, I think I have shot it all off!! Looks like another trip to the Shot Tower...........

Anyhow, my backyard theory is that the larger diameter of the SDM lower tube section come under more stretching and compression resistance than the RDM section. I'll find a way to test it soon. It does not look like much wind next week anyhow.........



Lost my train of thought when that southerly buster came thru, the 30% 400 is still wet and salty in the back of the van.

A little progress. I was worried that my wind drag calculations may have been way out. Couldn't arrange a vacuum to remove wind drag, but I figured I could wrap the mast in "foamjoint" to double the Cd and see how it oscillated. There wasn't a detectable difference! That confirms my drag calculations that indicated that it isn't that much.




So my latest thought is that the unaccounted-for damping of initial oscillations is in my mounting clamp. Especially when it goes past the neutral position and starts loading up the other way. I put various weights on the mast tip up and let it oscillate. If the oscillation goes past the neutral position the next oscillation is down by 30% (still technically underdamped) But it's all even more underdamped once the oscillations are staying below the unloaded position, only loses about 5% each time. These are all slower oscillations of course so I'm still not able to test the fast response with prebend combination.

I'm ready to go with Sailquick's conclusion, But it's just become a challenge in itself now. To measure and differentiate the high speed intrinsic damping of a 30% mast compared to a 95% mast.

I reckon I've demonstated that the intrinsic damping in both masts is very low. Both very much in the "underdamped" category.



These curves show that you need quite a lot of damping to alter the "reflex time" The "underdamped" reflex time is only a few percent below the "natural frequency" reflex time .



I've been googling thermoelastic damping. Is that what we are looking for? The bits undergoing compression get hot, the bits being stretched get cold. Like air in a bicycle pump. But heat conducts from the hot to the cold and thus the energy of the rebound is lost.

But anyway what's wrong with a little damping? Sailing without damping would be mighty uncomfortable. The mast would start vibrating like an old steel flag pole. The boom would vibrate like a 1950s chainsaw. But don't worry the sliding of the luff sleeve, the sliding of the cams and the air on the sail itself must get us close to critical damping, stopping any vibrations getting out of hand.









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"response of full carbon vs. 30% carbon masts" started by Ian K