Forums > Windsurfing General

when shoud vent plugs be removed

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Created by dkeating > 9 months ago, 3 Jan 2013
Mark _australia
WA, 22414 posts
4 Jan 2013 6:44PM
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^^^ CJW I don't care about the math, in every Cobra-made board I have seen with major damage the big crease started from an area where the glass was not fully wet out. It is a fact we are paying for boards that are missing glue. What makes them strong is the laminated construction. If a bit of glue is missing I'd rather give it every chance not to have internal pressure fluctuations no matter how small. That little unglued bit is gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger....



To other who say it is too hard - Screwdriver lives in box next to mast base. Board comes out of car, reach for mast base and screwdriver every single time. = no forgetting.
You only forget once and you learn from it

Ian K
WA, 4049 posts
4 Jan 2013 7:15PM
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CJW said...
d1 said...
CJW said...
It's honestly way more trouble that it's worth, for all the reasons listed above by anyone with half a clue


Yes, half a clue... Here is the viewpoint of someone with more than that - scroll down to "Q: my board has a vent plug. Should I open it when I'm not sailing?"): boardlady.com/faqs.htm




Really? Last time I looked the board lady wasn't a physicist, nor am I but lets run some calcs for the fun of it. (Someone may have to correct me, my gas laws are rusty, Ian :P)

Lets pick the absolute worst case, board in car, internally the board has reached 60deg, which in my opinion would never happen, polystyrene is pretty baller insulation you know. P1/T1=P2/T2, Temp = 22C, AtmP = 101.3kPa; 101.3/295 = P2/333, P2 = 114.34kPa giving a pressure differential of ~13kPa

Now that equates to about 13N/cm^2 for force. Now you might think that is a lot, but remember this is the absolute worst case (and imo implausible).

But think about this, when you step on your board your foot probably has a contact area of about 5x5cm + 5x5cm = 50cm^2. Lets say you weigh 80kg, 80*10/50 = 16N/cm^2. Which as you have now deduced is more than the absolute worst case pressure loading on the board.

Also keep in mind the foot load is an impulse load so it will be significantly higher than 16N/cm^2 when you actually put your foot down, not to mention going over chop etc.

Case in point absolute worst case pressure loading is not that bad, it's also a uniform load, nice and gentle, compared to anything else you do to the board. Save yourself the trouble, leave the bung in.


Gas law application is fine but I think you may have lost a factor of 10 converting from kPa to newtons per square cm. 10,000 square cm in a square metre. So 13,000newtons/10,000 = 1.3 newtons per square cm.

You might also have to allow for free water in the board. The partial pressure of water at 22 degrees is 2.6 kPa but at 60 degrees is 19.9 kPa. That brings you up to 3.2 newtons per square centimetre. But if you've never cracked the bung and forgotten to do it up you won't have free water in the board so forget about that.

Better add

Maybe more like 3.0 newtons per square cm for the soggy board because the 2.6 kPa of water vapour in the initial state is not following Boyles law, but the law for the partial pressure of water in equilibrium with a liquid surface. You'll find that law tabulated in wikipeadia, it's not a simple function.

seanhogan
QLD, 3424 posts
4 Jan 2013 9:27PM
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Exocet were clever : the vent plug is in front of the mast track, harder to forget when you insert the mast base !

Deano
WA, 255 posts
4 Jan 2013 7:27PM
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When it gets bloody hot, sits on top of a dark coloured car, sits in a hot shed, sits in a hot car, when ever it flys. Heat wave on the way from WA, open those vents.

Deano

Ian K
WA, 4049 posts
4 Jan 2013 7:44PM
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Deano said...
When it gets bloody hot, sits on top of a dark coloured car, sits in a hot shed, sits in a hot car, when ever it flys. Heat wave on the way from WA, open those vents.

Deano


Accidently left my precious Fanatic Falcon under the tarp of the ute in the sun once. When I remembered it and let go the plug it hissed for close to a minute like a cornered cat. Sailed it for another 4 or 5 years before it showed signs of delamination in the stomping zone.

The fact that delamination usually first appears under the feet suggests that leaving the vent done up is not the primary cause of delamination.

decrepit
WA, 12161 posts
4 Jan 2013 8:46PM
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Ian K said...


The fact that delamination usually first appears under the feet suggests that leaving the vent done up is not the primary cause of delamination.


Exactly, if the pressure is spread evenly over all the board, it doesn't need very strong glue to hold it all together. (And you can't compare external pressures to internal, the internal pressures are working against the glue, the external aren't)

However, it only needs one little weak spot, (Mark's dry lay up or Ian's, use stressed foam) and any internal pressure will start the delam bubble happening. Once this has started, any external pressure will compress the bubble and spread the delam.

As I said it's a lottery, there has to be a better answer!
I agree with the comments about plugs being a major p---off. I thought gortex was the answer, lets air past but not water, however I found one plug that had been wet on both sides would not pass any air in either direction, even after months of drying.

So I think the best idea is get into a routine, even if you think it's not necessary to loosen/remove bung, do it anyway every time, then you won't have to remember if it's done up or undone.

BTW if you only loosen the bung, don't transport it upside down, the b$@^%y thing will fall out, unless you use one of Elmo's oversize rings, that jams against the wall of the insert and the bung shaft.

Deano
WA, 255 posts
4 Jan 2013 8:50PM
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I know nothing about board construction. Agree, Delam under the feet is not a vent issue. It's where you stomp on it to jibe or should be. I have had many boards soft under foot but delaminate the bottom in cool and hot climates at a later date. Some lasting less than 12 months total. Driving hard into chop for hours on end & jumping will delaminate a light weight board, valve opened or not after use. You can even feel them go all squishy if they let go while sailing.
You have nothing to loose undoing the valve unless your forgetful
Cut a few boards in half in several places after delam and you will see multiple construction issues as Mark suggested. Mine have always separated about 5 to 10 mm into the blank not at the contact point between lamination & foam. But I have seen egg shell thick rails not laminated to the foam not be the point of failure

Deano

CJW
NSW, 1718 posts
5 Jan 2013 12:25AM
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13N/cm^2 did seem a bit high to me but a long arvos sailing, due diligence was a low priority, thanks Ian, those factors of 10 are shady :) And yeah I just ignored free water for simplicity...as if you always leave your bung in you should have any ^_^ Point even more proven right. Right

mattklause
NSW, 16 posts
5 Jan 2013 12:47AM
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I asked my local board repairer this same question.
He fixed a cracked rail on a board that blew away from me when I turned away from it (I didn't use the board after it happened). A couple of weeks later when the board was ready, he said water was weeping from the crack and advised me not to have the vent open in the boardbag because of the high moisture content in the bag.
I use to open the vent before but not anymore, and definitly remove the screw if it's going on a plane.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8021 posts
5 Jan 2013 9:43AM
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shear tip said...
sboardcrazy said...
I loosen it after every sail before it goes in the board bag...


Wouldn't the water vapour from the wet footstraps create a very moist atmosphere in the bag after a sail which would get sucked into the vent plug as the board cools and contracts. It might be better to leave the vent done up on the way home, and then store the board out of it's bag and then loosen the vent.

Just a thought - I don't usually loosen the vent, but I think I might start doing it...


I often have the back of the bags near the footstraps open about 10" as I thread a bike lock through them to secure them against theft. Wouldn't that counteract the vapour problem as the straps would be airing?

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8021 posts
5 Jan 2013 9:45AM
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barn said...
d1 said...
CJW said...
It's honestly way more trouble that it's worth, for all the reasons listed above by anyone with half a clue


Yes, half a clue... Here is the viewpoint of someone with more than that - scroll down to "Q: my board has a vent plug. Should I open it when I'm not sailing?"): boardlady.com/faqs.htm




Board Lady doesn't know everything, especially when it comes to pressure. Because she thinks pulling a partial vacuum on a board will evaporate (boil) the water inside. That's less than half a clue.

Anyway, bungs are the worst thing ever. First, there's no washer, so the O-ring is twisted and distorted every time you tighten it. Then there's all the sand and salt that gets in there fudging up the seal.

More importantly, why the fark do companies put the bung at the mast track. Put it at the nose or the tail so you can actually get the water that bungs inevitably leak in, back out.

I've sent this info graphic to all the major brands, clearly pointing why the bung is always at the bottom.




We should see bungs correctly installed for the 2014 boards.




Ever thought of being a cartoonist Barn?

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8021 posts
5 Jan 2013 9:46AM
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Mark _australia said...
^^^ CJW I don't care about the math, in every Cobra-made board I have seen with major damage the big crease started from an area where the glass was not fully wet out. It is a fact we are paying for boards that are missing glue. What makes them strong is the laminated construction. If a bit of glue is missing I'd rather give it every chance not to have internal pressure fluctuations no matter how small. That little unglued bit is gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger....



To other who say it is too hard - Screwdriver lives in box next to mast base. Board comes out of car, reach for mast base and screwdriver every single time. = no forgetting.
You only forget once and you learn from it




sboardcrazy
NSW, 8021 posts
5 Jan 2013 9:48AM
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decrepit said...
Ian K said...


The fact that delamination usually first appears under the feet suggests that leaving the vent done up is not the primary cause of delamination.


Exactly, if the pressure is spread evenly over all the board, it doesn't need very strong glue to hold it all together. (And you can't compare external pressures to internal, the internal pressures are working against the glue, the external aren't)

However, it only needs one little weak spot, (Mark's dry lay up or Ian's, use stressed foam) and any internal pressure will start the delam bubble happening. Once this has started, any external pressure will compress the bubble and spread the delam.

As I said it's a lottery, there has to be a better answer!
I agree with the comments about plugs being a major p---off. I thought gortex was the answer, lets air past but not water, however I found one plug that had been wet on both sides would not pass any air in either direction, even after months of drying.

So I think the best idea is get into a routine, even if you think it's not necessary to loosen/remove bung, do it anyway every time, then you won't have to remember if it's done up or undone.

BTW if you only loosen the bung, don't transport it upside down, the b$@^%y thing will fall out, unless you use one of Elmo's oversize rings, that jams against the wall of the insert and the bung shaft.


Or if you do make sure tis in a board bag..

DASZIP
SA, 135 posts
5 Jan 2013 9:55AM
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Please choose an answer
Manufacturers put vent plugs in boards because
A. They want you to undo them so you forget to put them back in water log your board and they can sell you a new one
Or
B. They put a vent plug in to release pressure and dry board of any moisture that may have got in from hairline fractures you don't know about therefore prolonging the life off your valuable board.

I'd like to believe the option B. It costs manufacturers time and money to fit these plugs, why do it if they don't think it's necessary. It may only save them ten bucks a board to put it in but that's a lot off money over millions off boards.

kato
VIC, 3403 posts
5 Jan 2013 10:39AM
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Problem solved. Buy a Carbon Art, Plug is at the tail (Keeps Barn happy), No screw to undo (Keeps the forgetfull happy) and it breaths through the Gortex(Keeps board happy)

barn
WA, 2960 posts
5 Jan 2013 8:16AM
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kato said...
Problem solved. Buy a Carbon Art, Plug is at the tail (Keeps Barn happy), No screw to undo (Keeps the forgetfull happy) and it breaths through the Gortex(Keeps board happy)


Why do CA put it at the tail, they use Gortex? I presume Cobra do it because it's inserted with the mast track, and therefore less work.

I borrowed a CA waveboard for a few months once and it took on about 5kg.

There were no holes, and no leaks when in the sun. The only thing I could think of was that funny bung.

r2908
NSW, 214 posts
5 Jan 2013 12:11PM
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5kgs !!!,, why do they use open cell foam in the construction and not closed cell .. ?

Jman
VIC, 873 posts
5 Jan 2013 12:21PM
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Agree with barn that the vent screw setup is the worst system ever but dont know what else would be any better, maybe a ss set up where the oring wll only get minimum preload to seal and can not be over tightened and damaged.

When you pic up a new board you really need to check that the counter bore where the oring sits is flat with no lumps bumps and also that the thread in the board is square to the seat.
I had a new board that was so out of square that the oring was only sealing on one side and I was amazed how much water it sucked in first time on the water
Also the last board I bought the thread was so tight it was hard to know how much pressure I was putting on the oring so I ran a 3/8 bsw tap in the hole to loosen the thread.
I always loosen the valve at home and then take it out completely at the beach and blow all the sand off and check the oring before doing it up.


Richiefish
QLD, 5610 posts
5 Jan 2013 11:52AM
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My boards live in my van. I was a "leave the plug done up" guy until my good ol' Naish freeride board totally delaminated on the bottom..Now I'm a "undo the plug" kinda guy.

seanhogan
QLD, 3424 posts
5 Jan 2013 2:10PM
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I remember that 15 years ago when I moved from a production board (bic saxo) to a custom, the new board was delivered without a vent.
I asked the shaper about it, he said "you want one ? no prob"
took his makita and inserted a screw in the board(no o ring).....
he told me "that's bull****, if the board is air thight there is no reason to put a bloody vent on it"

As a matter of fact I kept that board for 8 years in the van, never delaminated nor got heavier...
I'd rather think of the vent plug as an excuse for cheaper construction nowadays, in case things go wrong

decrepit
WA, 12161 posts
5 Jan 2013 8:03PM
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r2908 said...
5kgs !!!,, why do they use open cell foam in the construction and not closed cell .. ?


Unfortunately closed cell foam is heavier. I've made a couple of boards that way, but have switched to open cell because of the weight difference.

Mark Stone is making nice wave boards out of closed cell super light urethane.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/Stone-Surf-Custom-Quad/

They have no bung, and are sandwich construction, I don't think they come out much heavier than a standard production board of similar volume.
Trouble is the foam comes in a roughly shaped blank, so shape variety is limited, unlike a huge block of styrene.

I once bought a bung and socket for a surfboard I made, sucked water first time out, I discovered a molding line right across the sealing face. Now I check every time.


Sean said,
I remember that 15 years ago when I moved from a production board (bic saxo) to a custom, the new board was delivered without a vent.
I asked the shaper about it, he said "you want one ? no prob"
took his makita and inserted a screw in the board(no o ring).....
he told me "that's bull****, if the board is air thight there is no reason to put a bloody vent on it"


Sean, are you sure that custom of yours was open cell? 15 years ago some customs where still made from closed cell urethane blanks, they indeed don't need vents.
vents aren't there to let out water, they're there to let out expanding air.
With closed cell foam the air in the cells is trapped where it is, it can't exert any pressure on the sandwich skin.
With open cell foam, the air inside is free to roam around, any pressure build up will find the smallest weak spot and start enlarging it.

The tensile strength of foams varies in some cases it doesn't take much to free a few cells from the main body, so even with a good resin layup, there can be weak spots in the foam.
hammering through chop or a few flat landings will also weaken the foam, it won't take much pressure to start the delam once this happens.

R1DER
WA, 1461 posts
5 Jan 2013 10:51PM
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After repairing and making hundreds of boards over the last 20 or more years. Here's my advice.

1 If you want to keep your board for years use the vent plug daily.

2 If you get a new board every year, don't bother using the vent! unless you take it on a plane or leave it in a really, really hot car. (don't buy a used board off this person)

3 If you use a vent plug daily and a board bag to store your board. Cut a hole in the board bag above the vent.



mahi
QLD, 119 posts
6 Jan 2013 1:27AM
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I have witnessed a mates board explode while driving up the volcano in Maui. Sounded like popcorn cooking as the sandwich skin was delaminating off the eps core. Some valve screws need to be removed completely ! Not just backed off.
The bottom of the board was as domed as the deck when we pulled it out of the board bag - haha

appleman
TAS, 443 posts
6 Jan 2013 9:03AM
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Had an old exocett ,great board,never opened bung, why bother,.... don't own that board any more,the bottom blew out, only a little at first till the next chop hop ,sounds really funny when a thin sheet of epoxy is slapping the water.was pissed, boards so expensive.phillips head always in car, vent always open when on dry land = less chance of delam. DONT FORGETT TO DO BUNG UP, ITS EASY, just like don't swim with crocodiles.works for me ,might renew o ring right now, cheers.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8021 posts
6 Jan 2013 10:52AM
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R1DER said...
After repairing and making hundreds of boards over the last 20 or more years. Here's my advice.

1 If you want to keep your board for years use the vent plug daily.

2 If you get a new board every year, don't bother using the vent! unless you take it on a plane or leave it in a really, really hot car. (don't buy a used board off this person)

3 If you use a vent plug daily and a board bag to store your board. Cut a hole in the board bag above the vent.






So that just gets rid of spome heat in the bag? Will it help the wet board in bag issue?
Just got all my plugs out and was replacing the O rings but didn't have the exact size. We were going to use a smaller fatter one stretched and that would seal bettter but then it wouldn't let the air out..??? Confusing..going to buy exact size O rings Mon + order some Tabou ones..I noticed one of the plugs had the filed side and the other two didn't so they mustn't have been the original plugs..Filed the side down but I think I'll feel safer with original vent plugs..Cripes it was better when I was ignorant now I have more to worry about..

r2908
NSW, 214 posts
6 Jan 2013 10:56AM
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I had a small ding in the bottom of my new board, left the bung in and drove up & down the Wollongong escarpment on a very hot day . And the pressure change popped out the ding . Atleast I think that's how it happened .. winning!!!

actiomax
NSW, 1575 posts
6 Jan 2013 11:00AM
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I'm not sure what's right
But I do agree with barn that having no washer can pinch & twist o ring so it doesn't seal
& so why do vent plugs get made this way ? If it is so critical; the plugs would b designed not to chew up the o rings

GazMan
WA, 840 posts
7 Jan 2013 1:00AM
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Richiefish said...
My boards live in my van. I was a "leave the plug done up" guy until my good ol' Naish freeride board totally delaminated on the bottom..Now I'm a "undo the plug" kinda guy.


My Fanatic Hawk lived in my van inside a good padded bag for three years with no problems. Then when I sold the van I stored the board in a shed (in the board bag) with the vent screw done up and within two weeks the whole bottom skin had delaminated off the blank! Also had a Mistral Flow stored in the same shed for many years with the vent screw done up at all times and never had an issue with this board.

Now I loosen the vent screws whenever I'm not sailing, but I don't take them completely out.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8021 posts
7 Jan 2013 8:38AM
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My plugs have the one side that is flat but if the plugs have an O ring on how does the air escape the board when the plug is loose?

Windxtasy
WA, 4014 posts
7 Jan 2013 11:15AM
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I learned the hard way.
I nearly always loosen the vent screw when packing up and tighten before going on the water. Only one board has a bag but I leave it unzipped so vapour pressure cannot build up.
Only once have I forgotten to loosen the vent screw before putting the board in my car (I was very tired and in a hurry to get home). The next time I went to get the board out, the bottom of the board was ballooned out and there was a 20cm crack in the bottom. My favourite speed board. Very sad, and very annoying to have been so stupid as to leave the vent plug in.
I am told that in England you never have to worry about vent plugs. In cars in WA summer you do.



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"when shoud vent plugs be removed" started by dkeating