Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk

Alpha corner speed

Reply
Created by brad1 > 9 months ago, 14 Feb 2012
brad1
QLD, 232 posts
14 Feb 2012 10:25PM
Thumbs Up

Just as a matter of intrest what is your slowest speed in the mid corner of any given alpha and the alpha speed?
I guess you could be slightly slower on the straight and keep the speed through the turn and still be on par with being faster on the straight and pulling too much handbrake on in the corner.

decrepit
WA, 12223 posts
14 Feb 2012 10:06PM
Thumbs Up

25 alpha 16 min 30 max, 24 alpha min can go down to 12

and min isn't mid corner it's at the exit just before power on

snake
WA, 46 posts
16 Feb 2012 11:42AM
Thumbs Up

Lao Shi and I did a big stint of alpha sessions about a year ago and consistently found that min speeds did not play as vital a role as the entry and exit speeds.

For example some of my slowest corner speeds were as low as 11 but resulted in 24 alphas. To me it's all about how quickly you can get OFF and then back ON the power.

izaak
TAS, 1979 posts
16 Feb 2012 7:01PM
Thumbs Up

My alpha record, i was very lucky to get back in the 50m radius, i just followed the edge of the circle...So a near perfect jibe, among a few of the others i did that day. My out speed were identical to my in speeds.



sailquik
VIC, 6096 posts
17 Feb 2012 12:05AM
Thumbs Up

As Decrepit and Snake said, and Izaac has proven so elegantly, out-speed is the key to a really fast Alpha.
Getting out with max accelleration back to top speed ASAP is what makes all the difference. Oh.... and still clipping the proximity circle.

My highest 'low' speed in a good Alpha was 19 knots from memory. Well that was according to the GPS 'trackpoints', but I don't really believe it. And it was not my fastest Alpha anyhow. Fastest ones had slow points closer to 14-15 knots, not sure without running the files again, and I don't know that those figures are all that reliable anyhow.


decrepit
WA, 12223 posts
16 Feb 2012 10:26PM
Thumbs Up

great reply Izaak, those numbers are very interesting.

WindsurfingWA
WA, 805 posts
17 Feb 2012 10:41AM
Thumbs Up

So the next part of this discussion is how to go 30+ across the wind within 250m of your gybe?
Personally, a flatter less downhauled sail seems to help and a bigger board to accelerate faster.
Interested to hear from the gurus.

mathew
QLD, 2052 posts
17 Feb 2012 3:20PM
Thumbs Up

WindsurfingWA said...

So the next part of this discussion is how to go 30+ across the wind within 250m of your gybe?


More wind perhaps...

sailquik
VIC, 6096 posts
17 Feb 2012 5:07PM
Thumbs Up

The best I can do square reaching is around 32-34 knots in quite windy conditions. At this speed on flat water of have reached a point where it is quite difficult to turn in my iSonic 87. The rail does not want to sink!
I tried a Carbon Art CA50 and it turned in easily at 32-33 knots but lost speed too fast in the gybe and was slower to accelerate.
At Lake George, during my best 1 hour, I was able to consistently pull 30-31 knots square across the wind in 30 knots with a 5m sail on the IS50 and Lessacher 22cm speed rake 30. Nice flat water though....
The gybes were quite fast but when I looked at the tracks, most were a bit too wide to hit the proximity circle because I was not really trying to do that. I was rigged for low drag and speed square and had a smallish fin so accelleration out of the Gybes was also not as good as if I was rigged larger or fuller.
The best Alphas I have done were 30-32 knots on the in run, a nice fully powered gybe and as I came out I got a really good gust to shoot me back to 28-29 knots as fast as possible. If you are lucky enough to get a slight wind shift as you turn so the out run is slightly broader, so much the better.

izaak
TAS, 1979 posts
17 Feb 2012 5:37PM
Thumbs Up

As you can see, i was trying to run dead square to the wind each way, allowing me to do identical in and out speeds.. All my alphas were done on my JP Speed 45, i know the board so well, that i can use it like my slalom board.

sailquik
VIC, 6096 posts
18 Feb 2012 12:24AM
Thumbs Up

izaak said...

As you can see, i was trying to run dead square to the wind each way, allowing me to do identical in and out speeds.. All my alphas were done on my JP Speed 45, i know the board so well, that i can use it like my slalom board.


Hey Izaac, can you zoom in on the speed graph at the bottom for your top alpha and post a screen shot please?
Use "view>zoom to result" Like this:

An Alpha from a 1 hour run the day before my record 1 hour - pretty sure this one was on the CA40 with assy fin:

sailquik
VIC, 6096 posts
18 Feb 2012 1:28AM
Thumbs Up

Ok, here is my dream Alpha. This one was during my record 1 hour. I got everything right except for one thing. 85m proximity circle! My only excuse is that for 1 hour this is faster.
That's how it should look though, but tighter!

izaak
TAS, 1979 posts
18 Feb 2012 10:34AM
Thumbs Up



Ian K
WA, 4064 posts
18 Feb 2012 7:52AM
Thumbs Up

It appears one ingredient of an outstanding alpha is to clip the 50 m circle with no more than a couple of mm to spare. How do you do it? What navigation tricks do you use? When I try for alphas on trackless Lake Illawarra most are way too wide. And then my best for the day often looks like that other alpha, the Greek alpha.

I've tried siting my wake against a mountain on the way in, doesn't seem to work. Sometimes your ingoing wake is still visible, but if it's a good gust, it's not. What's the trick?

izaak
TAS, 1979 posts
18 Feb 2012 11:03AM
Thumbs Up

Luck!! and doing as many alphas as possible. Eventually you should be able to judge the distance quite well.

Ian K
WA, 4064 posts
18 Feb 2012 8:14AM
Thumbs Up

izaak said...

Luck!! and doing as many alphas as possible. Eventually you should be able to judge the distance quite well.


Yes, thanks Izaak.

A mate once said to me " Ian, I hope you never leave Canberra, because if you do I'll be the worst navigator in Canberra "

Well I did and he is.

Jman
VIC, 873 posts
18 Feb 2012 11:43AM
Thumbs Up

I was pretty happy with this one at Elwood max speed only 23.3 and still a 20 knot Alpha, in the bay its more about timing between the swell so sometimes the arc is not so smooth.


nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
18 Feb 2012 8:53AM
Thumbs Up

Ian K said...

It appears one ingredient of an outstanding alpha is to clip the 50 m circle with no more than a couple of mm to spare. How do you do it? What navigation tricks do you use? When I try for alphas on trackless Lake Illawarra most are way too wide. And then my best for the day often looks like that other alpha, the Greek alpha.

I've tried siting my wake against a mountain on the way in, doesn't seem to work. Sometimes your ingoing wake is still visible, but if it's a good gust, it's not. What's the trick?


One trick I've used:
1) Find a buoy or similar that is 200m or so away from where you gybe. On your inbound leg, pass around 40m upwind of it. Do your gybe, then aim to get within 5m downwind of the buoy.

It helps if you measure out 40 metres on the ground beforehand so you know how far that is.

The crab munchers have been known to set up two buoys 50m apart for exactly this purpose

da vecta
QLD, 2514 posts
18 Feb 2012 11:19AM
Thumbs Up

This is all good information. It seems that an alpha is only half what I thought it was. I assumed it was the full alpha shape.

So is it 250m approx from the centre of the circle to the corner of the gybe?

ikw777
QLD, 2995 posts
18 Feb 2012 3:00PM
Thumbs Up

Jman said...

I was pretty happy with this one at Elwood max speed only 23.3 and still a 20 knot Alpha, in the bay its more about timing between the swell so sometimes the arc is not so smooth.





That's pretty impressive!

sailquik
VIC, 6096 posts
18 Feb 2012 10:47PM
Thumbs Up

izaak said...






Yep, that's how it should be done!

sailquik
VIC, 6096 posts
18 Feb 2012 10:52PM
Thumbs Up

Jman said...

I was pretty happy with this one at Elwood max speed only 23.3 and still a 20 knot Alpha, in the bay its more about timing between the swell so sometimes the arc is not so smooth.


Excellent Alpha on open water!

decrepit
WA, 12223 posts
18 Feb 2012 8:18PM
Thumbs Up

da vecta said...

This is all good information. It seems that an alpha is only half what I thought it was. I assumed it was the full alpha shape.

So is it 250m approx from the centre of the circle to the corner of the gybe?


total distance must be 500m or less, seperation between start and end points 50m or less.

so not sure what you mean by centre of circle and corner of gybe. Ideally it looks something like a "U"

sailquik
VIC, 6096 posts
18 Feb 2012 11:34PM
Thumbs Up

Ian K said...

It appears one ingredient of an outstanding alpha is to clip the 50 m circle with no more than a couple of mm to spare. How do you do it? What navigation tricks do you use? When I try for alphas on trackless Lake Illawarra most are way too wide. And then my best for the day often looks like that other alpha, the Greek alpha.

I've tried siting my wake against a mountain on the way in, doesn't seem to work. Sometimes your ingoing wake is still visible, but if it's a good gust, it's not. What's the trick?


Hi Ian, You are on the right track. At Sandy on an Easterly I start my run next to one of those big green buoys. On the return I use it to try to judge the Proximity. After a while it is not too hard to judge 45-50 m pretty well.

On the SW bank it is not quite so easy without a convenient buoy so I try to run in to the bank on a tight pinch and then go square for 200m flat stick. On the return I try to judge 45m from the bank but if I am slightly wide, at least I will come close to the in track after 200-250m.

At lake George, in the middle of a big lake without any obvious markers, the best bet is to sight on the other side of the lake. After a few runs back and forth you should be able to work out sighting marks on each side to aim for so you know your are square. The ripples on the water can help here as well as the feel of you rig and speed. I wear my GPS where I can see it. After a few runs you will soon get a pretty good feel for what is dead square. Then it is just a matter of pulling the smoothest tight gybe you can and hammering back as square is possible. One other thing that helps at LG is the wake track you tend to leave in the really saline water. On most runs it stays visible long enough to get another useful cue from.

Hope this helps.

"The older I get, the better I was"

TASSIEROCKS
TAS, 1651 posts
19 Feb 2012 11:30AM
Thumbs Up

Thanks for this thread, I think I finally get how to improve my Alpha

Cheers Russ

Ian K
WA, 4064 posts
19 Feb 2012 11:23AM
Thumbs Up

Yes a few clues there for featureless lakes Andrew. The landmarks then will have to be fairly distant or you'll have to not roam too far off your beaten track. I suppose you also need to standardise your gybe radius at 50 metres. That's a fairly tight gybe at around 30 knots. Variable gybes to 80 metres wide will need too much upwind, and tricky landmark geometry.

Thanks, I'll put it to use when the westerlies return. It's a long time since I pb'd an alpha.



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk


"Alpha corner speed" started by brad1