Select to expand quoteKA360 said...
What I am asking for is logical. I don't think that gives anyone the right to question and comment on my relationship with my son and daughter.
Sausage, you have no clue. Just because I have given up my windsurfing time and bothered to help my son AND a lot of other children learn to love windsurfing or because I care about speaking up on behalf of those who don't have a voice of their own, does not mean that I am living a vicarious relationship. {NOTE: I just noticed that Sausage has edited his post and removed the comment accusing me of living vicariously through my children, so my comment here will not make sense to those who didn't see it.}
You don't know me but, if you did, you would see that your comments reflect more your own issues. Sick_em_rex and Sausage, I would love to hear from your experiences in teaching your children to windsurf what their views are on the current age divisions (aren't they of relevant ages for this discussion).
I am fanatical about windsurfing and I think it's one of the greatest gifts a parent can give their children. I have never cared about Alex being number 1 but about whether he enjoys himself. I love seeing all children have fun on the water. People that know me, know that I do not push the kids to do anything they are not happy with and that I give up a lot of my time and money to help other people's children improve too.
More people should be less selfish and spend some of their precious "me" time with their children. And if they find that is very rewarding for them, then in my opinion, we should be applauding that and not having a go.
Just to set the record straight, enquiring about what has been decided and if and when changes are going to be made does not mean that I don't appreciate what the committee has done or that they are busy. I am just asking because there was nothing posted and I wondered what the result of the discussion on this thread had been.
Secondly, we like being in a team. The kids on our team love being on the same team. If you saw them sailing together you would appreciate just how good it is for them and how much fun they really have. We are happy with the GPSTC and are not asking for anything more than everyone else already has.
The GPSTC currently has individual rankings and I haven't heard anyone previously say that is against the spirit of the GPSTC. If you don't think that individual rankings belong in GPSTC, then take them off!!! I can't see why discussing where the appropriate age divisions should lie gives you license to tell me to go to GPSSS.
Akim,
Sorry I took so long to reply as I've been down the beach with my 4 kids teaching them to surf and building sand castles. Selfish I know ;-)
Yes I did edit my "vacarious relationship"comment because you are quite correct in stating that I don't know you at all. Maybe I just incorrectly grouped you in with all the other parents I see at sports that my kids play throughout the year.
Just a General Comment:
Attacking Volunteers of Non-Profit sporting organisations, or if not attacking them, but just making endless demands, , is a great recipe for burnout, and for these people to resign, and dis-incentive for others to ever volunteer"
HINT HINT
GPSTC Committee "You Guyz are Brilliant and have made the GPSTC Better than when the OLD Grumpy Grouch was Running it!!!!!!!!!!!"
Good to hear that further age divisions are on the drawing board. Just to clarify the incentive that more divisions give:
When I first joined the GPSTC I just went out and sailed and was resigned to never scoring a bean for the team because I was so much slower than everyone else. I enjoyed the social side of being in a team, enjoyed the occasional PB and revelled in the achievements of my team mates. It wasn't until Lao's end of year report to the Pinnaroos where he said I'd finished 11th in the Aus ladies division that I realised there were divisions at all. But being 11th made me think, if I try a bit harder I could finish in the top 10. That was an desirable and achievable goal and it really made me push myself. That same year in the overall ranking I was 266/305. Not much incentive there, if you see my point. Similarly, scoring for the team regardless of effort seemed an impossibility.
Having achievable goals in smaller divisions has really made me push myself. In 2012 I finished 11th in the international division for ladies. Once again decided top 10 was achievable and pushed myself harder in 2013. A lot of my PB's were deliberate attempts to improve my ranking. I even bothered to really work hard on gybing for the first time. One of my PB's even scored me my very first jellybean!
If you think personal rankings aren't important in the GPSTC just look how many sailors scored PB's and top 5 scores in the last few days of December, especially in the hard work categories of Hr & distance. That wasn't just good wind - in WA at least, the conditions were not ideal - that was people doing their best to improve their personal ranking for the year.
So more divisions, especially for the kids. Make the top 10/top5 an achievable goal, and from there they will create their own momentum.
Select to expand quotekato said..firiebob said..
I started typing my last post after Kato but got sidetracked buy a cuddle and a coffee, I was responding to Herbs idea and Anita's suggestion.
FNQM's having BBQ this arvo for Hoppy Bob's 73'rd birthday, I'll have a Coopers for all of you 
Oh in 12 months or so I'll be a Legend, look out Mr Quick Herb, I'll be gunning for you
Where can you buy and cuddle and a coffee 
When I make it to Vic, and if it's as cold as I'm expecting, then you'll get it for free
Is it really that hard to put in a new age division?
Windxtasty you have phrased it really well and that is exactly how I feel about it too.
I am not really aware of all the endless demands on the committee and really don't know what they do so I apologise if anyone thinks that anything that I've said is an attack as this was never my intention.
I just want to see some appropriate age divisions whenever you can manage it. And if you can't, then so be it. In the meantime, in the juniors, we still have children competing against men...
PS I didn't start this thread and although I appreciate the sentiment to do something in this area, I really can't see why it can't be an appropriate age division ie 13-15 and 16-18 years. And of course, whatever the people in the over 60s feel is right for them. They're the best judge.
<12 micro groms. Every one of them should get a participation award.
12-15 groms. State awards plus team awards
16 -18 juniors. National, state and team.
Just my opinion.
Over the years I have put in a few polite comments as to the broad age span for the over 60 sailors.
This year I was dismayed to see that some of the comments were a bit vitriol.
Select to expand quoteKA360 said..sick_em_rex said..
I think you are losing sight of what the GPSTC is all about....forget about the age groups and just go and have fun and try to improve your own pb's. What does it matter where you are on a table? Are bragging rights that important for you???
I am NEVER going to lead my age group let alone probably even get into the top 100 of it, but I am in no way discouraged by that. To say that the current age classifications give younger sailors nothing to aspire to is completely ignoring what this challenge is about. It is about having fun and beating your own pb's. Maybe look at joining GPSSS if you want a more competitive environment.
This is an amateur website run by volunteers who are doing an awesome job. Let's just keep everything simple for them. It has been working fine for years......KISS.
Just my opinion.
With all due respect, I think that maybe YOU are losing sight of what the GPSTC is all about.
No one is preventing you from having fun or improving your own PBs. And you are perfectly at liberty to not take any notice of your individual or team ranking and to make sure that you don't brag. I do wonder though, why you would even consider being part of the GPSTC since you could do all that just by using a GPS and keeping your own private record of your PBs and never posting.
As the GPSTC has been set up though it is very obviously competitive. It has rankings for teams, countries and individuals. All the scores are posted. If you were right, there would be no teams, no overall or annual rankings and no categories for gender or age.
I don't really think we need to have a discussion about whether the GPSTC concept is justified. In any case, the beauty of the GPSTC is that it has many attractive aspects and appeals to different people for different reasons. I like the team atmosphere it encourages, the ability to track your own progress over time and that it allows you to gauge your performance against others.
Anyway, since we have various categories and divisions, I feel that we should attempt to ensure they are useful and meaningful. Would anyone question whether there should be a separate gender division? Of course not! I am only using the same reasoning to request appropriate age divisions too.
Do school athletics, swimming or children's team sports have primary school children competing against those in Year 12? NO! In fact in all of these sports the division is usually on a yearly age category.
I have a lot of experience with children and the GPSTC and I believe I understand what motivates them. I note that your children do not compete in the GPSTC. THE GPSTC is one of many tools that I have found useful in motivating children to improve their windsurfing skills. Healthy competition is a valid and significant motivator. In 2013, my team (the Gustbusters) had 5 children in the Kiddies category. There are more joining over the next few weeks. This is half of the total children in this age division. They have enjoyed seeing their scores, PBs and rankings. One of them has been sailing for less than 2 months and worked his way up to 3rd overall last year.
It has also been great fun for my son Alex in the last couple of years to have someone to compete against (in his case a boy in the UK). The overall lead changed 12 times in December 2012 when the boys were battling it out. This year again, it was neck and neck to the last days of the year. I wonder if the boys would have pushed themselves as much if there was no competition. I believe the competition has been excellent for both the boys and they have undoubtedly become better sailors for it. Next year, when these boys go into the next age division (currently 13-18 year olds), will they try as hard when they are battling for 60th place and it is clearly unattainable to reach a high level? The difference between a 13 year old (40kg) and an 18 year old (adult size) is more than the difference between most males and females.
You have framed your opinion in such a way as to put down those who feel differently to yourself. You even suggest that they should leave the GPSTC and go to GPSSS! Well, if this issue is not addressed soon, that may well be what happens. They may also not bother with speed sailing at all! Personally, I don't think that's a good outcome. Just because the GPSTC has been working fine for years for you, it doesn't mean it doesn't ever need tweeking.
Just have fun with trying to beat your own results, you can't compete with someone on the other side of the world sailing in different conditions. Race against people on your team at the same spot and conditions. I am never going to beat someone at Sandy Point !!!!!! And Alkim stop being such a god damn "TROPHY HUNTER" !!!!
On Friday while sailing the river at Melville in 20-25 knots,watched Slowboat with a big sail of around 7m sail the west side (the flattest and shallowest) part of the sandbank. Risking life and limb to do so for what? Followed him a couple of times and sailing in a millpond just doesn't cut it for me! These GPS'ers sailing steep angles off the wind are a constant danger to sailors who choose to sail across the wind. Thanks to GPS,the social drag racing scene on the river is all but dead too.
Select to expand quotehardie said..
>>>>>>
The genius of Nebbs must never be forgotten, maybe the most important ingredient in why the GPSTC works and is addictive
Hardie, I've known you for a long time now, but never before have I heard you speak a truer word!!!!!
The group discussions that worked out the nature of the challenge was fantastic, but it was Nebs skill and dedication that created this website and data base.
Select to expand quotepetermac33 said..
On Friday while sailing the river at Melville in 20-25 knots,watched Slowboat with a big sail of around 7m sail the west side (the flattest and shallowest) part of the sandbank. Risking life and limb to do so for what? Followed him a couple of times and sailing in a millpond just doesn't cut it for me! These GPS'ers sailing steep angles off the wind are a constant danger to sailors who choose to sail across the wind. Thanks to GPS,the social drag racing scene on the river is all but dead too.
If sailing in those conditions doesn't cut it for you why don't you sail somewhere else?
Select to expand quoteWood Duck said..
And Alkim stop being such a god damn "TROPHY HUNTER" !!!!
This is not golf. There is no money and no trophies in windsurfing. And, this is really none of your business. If you don't have children who windsurf in the GPSTC, then why is this such a big issue to you?
Why is it necessary to go through this much to add an age division or two? Why should we need to jump through so many hoops to get something so minor and basic?
The GPSTC can be improved for those aged 13 to 15 and over 70. The drop down list is not useful for children and this is a signal to those groups (children and legends) that they do not deserve the same treatment as the rest of the GPSTC participants.
The undignified and sour comments coming from some bad apples is just weird.
Adding a drop down list is I'm sure much more effort than adding a couple of divisions to an already existing list. If you don't see the logic that has been put to you already then I don't think there's much more than we can say. Who will this harm? (Apart from the egos of some people who are not involved).
Select to expand quotepetermac33 said..
Thanks to GPS,the social drag racing scene on the river is all but dead too.
Actually, it's never been more alive, in TAS at least!! 
Select to expand quotepetermac33 said..
>>>> These GPS'ers sailing steep angles off the wind are a constant danger to sailors who choose to sail across the wind. Thanks to GPS,the social drag racing scene on the river is all but dead too.
Peter, sorry to hear the GTC has lessened your sailing enjoyment, but just keep in mind the 1200 or so world wide that it's enhanced!
Select to expand quoteKA360 said..
This is not golf. There is no money and no trophies in windsurfing. And, this is really none of your business. If you don't have children who windsurf in the GPSTC, then why is this such a big issue to you?
Why is it necessary to go through this much to add an age division or two? Why should we need to jump through so many hoops to get something so minor and basic?
Someone has to do the work to make this happen. It won't be you, so you'll just have to be patient.
Wow playing with the age filter is fun.
it's amazing the difference 2 years can make.
Thought I was eliminating sailquick, but must have just excluded his best sessions.
Interesting thing is, over 70s is only 10 people Internationally and 7 in Australia, that's not a lot of competition.
There's 20 under 12s Internationally and 18 in Australia. I guess that's worthwhile.
12 - 15 in Aus there's 28.
15 - 18 in Aus there's 26
I had a feeling the numbers would be too low, but with the age filters we see that younger age groups are viable numbers wise.
Thanks Nebbs for making a good thing even better.
I think making the age filter go up to 129 was a bit optimistic!
Are you future proofing the site for when they find the secret to eternal youth is windsurfing? or is there going to be a pairs competition where we can combine our ages?
Sorry Akim, I thought the committee decided that the age filter was all that was required. Do we want another age category as well? What should it be called?
The technical reason why this isn't straightforward is that to speed up searches, the age category is saved with every session. If a new category is added (13-15 for example), then all the sessions that were in the previous 13-17 category that actually brlong in the new category need to be marked as such. This isn't a massive deal, I can write a script to do this, but it's not completely straightforward.
I hope this helps you understand
Decrepit, note that the filters are inclusive: if you go 12-15, then 15-18 then you count 15 year olds twice.
Also note that you are probably counting the same kid twice if they have been a member for a couple of years and they are in the higher category. You might have to set the year to 2013 to get a good feel for how many kids are actually in the comp (which will still count the same kid twice if they turned 16 in 2013)
Select to expand quotenebbian said..
Sorry Akim, I thought the committee decided that the age filter was all that was required. Do we want another age category as well? What should it be called?
The technical reason why this isn't straightforward is that to speed up searches, the age category is saved with every session. If a new category is added (13-15 for example), then all the sessions that were in the previous 13-17 category that actually brlong in the new category need to be marked as such. This isn't a massive deal, I can write a script to do this, but it's not completely straightforward.
I hope this helps you understand
I think maybe Akim hasn't caught on that the age filter is up and running.
I think it is simple and does the job. You can choose what ever age range you like. What does it matter if your age group has an official name?
Thank you for clarifying nebbian!
I can now see what is involved. I guess the simplest solution would then be to leave the Kiddies as they are (12 and under) and split the junior age division into two. My suggestion would be to make the two categories: Junior (ages 13-14) and Youth (ages 15-17).
This also aligns nicely with the IFCA age divisions for international children's windsurfing competition in slalom, waves and freestyle for the first two categories at least (although they also have under 17 and under 21 for the older children and young adults, I imagine that would overly complicate the issue and not be worth the effort).
Your effort is very much appreciated and I am sure will also be by the current and future young participants of the GPSTC. I am very hopeful that in some small way we can increase participation by young windsurfers to the eventual benefit of us all.
With regard to the over 60s I am sure that they are more qualified to make the call regarding names (and hopefully you can use the same script with minor changes to recategorise the sessions involved.
Select to expand quotenebbian said..
Decrepit, note that the filters are inclusive: if you go 12-15, then 15-18 then you count 15 year olds twice.
Also note that you are probably counting the same kid twice if they have been a member for a couple of years and they are in the higher category. You might have to set the year to 2013 to get a good feel for how many kids are actually in the comp (which will still count the same kid twice if they turned 16 in 2013)
That is great Nebbian, thanks for all the work you do.
An idea I had while looking at the new feature is would it be easy to add "pre built" filters to the pull down menu.
So when we pick from the pull down "Rankings, Individual, All" (where I start looking, and it shows all 1255 members) could we choose some pre built categories (perhaps as Akim mentioned the age "groups") and perhaps for things like the current year. If that was easy to add (let us know) then some discussion would probably get a list of the most common ones that people would use. It might also save a bit of "stress" on the server as I imagine a query with a pre built filter is a bit more efficient.
eg. Current year, Australia, Male, Aged 53-54, Left handed, Lives in Perth, wears a bucket hat, drives a silver car (the only way Ill get a good rating I think).
Also wondered why the Gender list has "blank=all or Female but no Male ?
And please the committee and everyone who behind the scenes keeps the GPSTC running dont feel that these suggestions are in any way a criticism. I'm sure that everyone appreciates the work you all do and have done!
Another idea - you will hate this one and its too much work - but should we be storing the age with the session as well as the "division". That would make it easy to add new divisions and also make the age "ranking" be correct as it would be the age when the session was recorded not the current age. (dont hate me too much )
Select to expand quotehardpole said..
Another idea - you will hate this one and its too much work - but should we be storing the age with the session as well as the "division". That would make it easy to add new divisions and also make the age "ranking" be correct as it would be the age when the session was recorded not the current age. (dont hate me too much )
You should be a database designer!
I actually had this thought when doing the age filters -- it would be much better to store the sailor's age along with the session, rather than the age division. I wish I'd thought of that back in 2007.
I'll probably be doing something like that at some stage.
Select to expand quoteWindxtasy said..
Good to hear that further age divisions are on the drawing board. Just to clarify the incentive that more divisions give:
When I first joined the GPSTC I just went out and sailed and was resigned to never scoring a bean for the team because I was so much slower than everyone else. I enjoyed the social side of being in a team, enjoyed the occasional PB and revelled in the achievements of my team mates. It wasn't until Lao's end of year report to the Pinnaroos where he said I'd finished 11th in the Aus ladies division that I realised there were divisions at all. But being 11th made me think, if I try a bit harder I could finish in the top 10. That was an desirable and achievable goal and it really made me push myself. That same year in the overall ranking I was 266/305. Not much incentive there, if you see my point. Similarly, scoring for the team regardless of effort seemed an impossibility.
Having achievable goals in smaller divisions has really made me push myself. In 2012 I finished 11th in the international division for ladies. Once again decided top 10 was achievable and pushed myself harder in 2013. A lot of my PB's were deliberate attempts to improve my ranking. I even bothered to really work hard on gybing for the first time. One of my PB's even scored me my very first jellybean!
If you think personal rankings aren't important in the GPSTC just look how many sailors scored PB's and top 5 scores in the last few days of December, especially in the hard work categories of Hr & distance. That wasn't just good wind - in WA at least, the conditions were not ideal - that was people doing their best to improve their personal ranking for the year.
So more divisions, especially for the kids. Make the top 10/top5 an achievable goal, and from there they will create their own momentum.
Yes if i was competing against the guys I'd give up..I'm a competitive little bugger Now I've just got to catch Windxtasy..
Actually on another note I love the website but often get curious about other sailors.An easy way to find out which team and their details would be nice i.e- all names clickable rather than having to find a post to get a clickable name.
)
Select to expand quotepetermac33 said..
On Friday while sailing the river at Melville in 20-25 knots,watched Slowboat with a big sail of around 7m sail the west side (the flattest and shallowest) part of the sandbank. Risking life and limb to do so for what? Followed him a couple of times and sailing in a millpond just doesn't cut it for me! These GPS'ers sailing steep angles off the wind are a constant danger to sailors who choose to sail across the wind. Thanks to GPS,the social drag racing scene on the river is all but dead too.
I seem to recall a few years back aft the LOC Pete that you said "it's back to the millpond for me" because you got smashed as I did, in a difficult LoC race. So I'm confused as to what your preferences are ?
As to social drag racing being dead, I couldn't disagree more. In fact, being part of the gpstc has introduced me to a lot of other sailors that I would never have met otherwise so it makes it far easier to turn up or see someone on the water and have an impromptu drag race ! In fact, some of my best sessions lately have been drag racing with guys on the river. All of whom are very capable sailors and it helps improve my technique as well. If there's a good result in there for PBs then great, otherwise I don't really care.
I'm part of a very competent team (SRM) so I'm never going to match slowly or some of the other guys in all categories all of the time. Some times I contribute results, sometimes I don't, but it does allow me to gauge where I am against others. Not because of the competition, but because I learn more about what I need to do to be a better sailor. So yeah, sailing behind slowboat on a steep down wind run can be a hell scary experience but you learn a hell of a lot too. And when you do, the lightbulb clicks and suddenly you've realised that you can do this which you might never have thought that you would have. I went wave sailing at gnaraloo in October, the first time that I've EVER been wave sailing, because I was "pushed" into it by someone who thought I could do it, and they were right ! The gpstc has had the same effect on my slalom sailing but I don't go out ever day looking for pb's.
So, if you just want to reach backwards and forwards, like I used to, then go for it, but don't hope on board the gps bashing band because you think it ruins your sailing. It has the opposite effect.
And BTW, I think this thread started with a simple thanks to the organisers which is worth repeating here. Well done guys on all the hard work you do. It's appreciated.
Hi Neb,
Would it be possible to add a [ Day Filter ] in the Rankings Filter?
Main reason being,
If a Team or State wanted to have a fun day sailing so they can see the results just for that day.
Where they are all competing against each other just for that day.
Cheers!
