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Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk

Which one will be fastest?

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Created by legless > 9 months ago, 24 Jul 2012
legless
SA, 852 posts
24 Jul 2012 1:51PM
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Which one will be fastest?

I guess it all depends on the conditions. I guess a shorter delta would enable you to sail in shallower conditions which are likely to be flatter however a longer fin will give more lift.




ka43
NSW, 3082 posts
25 Jul 2012 9:36AM
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Dont know why anyone would red thumb a post like this.
Ive been mucking around with an old Caveman weedy of 40cm. I cut it down to 30cm and its kind of like the Delta weedy in your pics. Id seen them in a mag and thought the fin shape was interesting and like the Concordes tail.
Im still hand sanding it to get the foil right but when its finished Ill post some pics.
In the article they said the Delta speed gave up upwind ability but in straight line speed there was hardly any difference. So who knows??
Interesting though.

Wineman
NSW, 1412 posts
25 Jul 2012 10:34AM
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ka43 said...
Ive been mucking around with an old Caveman weedy of 40cm. I cut it down to 30cm and its kind of like the Delta weedy in your pics....
Interesting though.


Let me know how it goes Grant - may as well do the same to my Caveman 40.
As we found out at Canton, in their original form they are pretty useless as weedies and a very thick foil shape.
Some pics too

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
25 Jul 2012 11:05AM
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I green thumbed the post. Anyway I'm really interested in the Delta fins. They are a great concept and if they work reasonably well I wouldn't mind getting fins of this type as they would be good at places like Canton Beach and also some of the river estuaries which are currently unsailable with normal fins.

legless
SA, 852 posts
25 Jul 2012 12:59PM
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I am trying to work out if the delta shape will be as fast as a more standard speed weed fin. You gain the advantage of being able to sail shallower water with the deltas but the fact it protrudes infront of the fin box will that be a clean though the water as the standard speed weed fin. The delta would also not give as much lift which may be a good thing when totally overpowered. I guess the question is if the water is deep enough are you better off on a standard Weed seed fin.

I am thinking for here at boggy lake were a weed fin is not needed, there is the occasional killer carp that the delta would just sail over and it would be nothing more than a speed bump

Another point raised to me today was that would you be able to beach start in the really shallow water you can sail in with a delta if you fell off in say a jibe or would you have to walk out into deeper water to get started?

red
VIC, 739 posts
25 Jul 2012 3:27PM
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gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2012-06-20&team=29

Waiting4wind
NSW, 1871 posts
25 Jul 2012 5:09PM
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I've been looking at these fins my self but wanted some feedback on their performance, and now we have it.

The only potential problem with fins that overlap the bottom of the board is that even the tiniest gap on the leading edge will catch weed. So you need to make sure its a perfectly flush fit.

Does anyone know the angle of the fin? It looks similar to the black project which is 40 deg I think. From hat I've seen, you need at least 45 deg for heavy weed.

Oops edit, it doesn't look similar to the BP, looks like a bigger rake angle.

ka43
NSW, 3082 posts
25 Jul 2012 5:18PM
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In the post the point is raised about the front of the fin being like a "cow catcher" as it hangs over the front of the Tuttle box.
The old Caveman I am working on sticks out at least 5cm and this was the "problem" Pete mentions.
Last night I tried it in the main board I will be using it in, noted the gap when fin snug in the box and then using super high tech materials (duct tape and epoxy resin) made a simple mould cup and filled in the gap to make it flush.
Should be ready to sand and fine tune this afternoon.
I will try and get some pics to post. Its not up to the quality of the Delta and needs more work to thin out the very thick foil (Sam P) has drawn a line I am working to "fan" it to.
The angle is 45 deg.

sausage
QLD, 4873 posts
25 Jul 2012 5:36PM
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Is that honeycomb matting on the Delta 20 only a graphic inlay or does it have some 'structural' qualities? Also what's with the downturned lip (from what I can tell) on the base of its leading edge

Having only experience with high aspect slalom / race fins and sailing open ocean I presume the deltas are an unrealistic option for me. Would like to hear any experience using in less than ideal water. EDIT - just read Jacques GPS TC session with a 19cm delta in his 59 wide F2SX although just how 'choppy' is Swan Bay?

legless
SA, 852 posts
25 Jul 2012 5:37PM
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Waiting4wind said...

I've been looking at these fins my self but wanted some feedback on their performance, and now we have it.

The only potential problem with fins that overlap the bottom of the board is that even the tiniest gap on the leading edge will catch weed. So you need to make sure its a perfectly flush fit.

Does anyone know the angle of the fin? It looks similar to the black project which is 40 deg I think. From hat I've seen, you need at least 45 deg for heavy weed.

Oops edit, it doesn't look similar to the BP, looks like a bigger rake angle.


The bottom of the base of the deltas protruding forward of the fin box has a strip of black foam so that the fin can be fitted flush against the hull of the board.

The Delta's have a rake of 55

sailpilot
QLD, 784 posts
25 Jul 2012 9:50PM
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Similarly to Snags I'd be interested to hear if these lower aspect fins are an option in ocean sailing conditions.? Also how much does area make up for the loss in length, eg what size delta would compare with a 32cm slalom fin for general reaching ?

wantmorewind
VIC, 115 posts
25 Jul 2012 9:53PM
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Hey Sausage, Swan bay can get pretty choppy but its not an open water chop, its a short sharp wind and tide induced chop. The Delta has its pro's as well as its con's, its crazy to say that one particular fin is the best in every aspect. Each fin has its perfered aspect and the other areas are just delt with, for instance i use a 20 assy at Sandy to go fast but getting back up wind sometimes is extremely frustrating, but thats the fin.
So the Delta is a fin that i will use at home when the tide and water are at their lowest and the water is at its flatest, normally when its like this sailing sometimes with a 28-32 would be out of the question, now with the Delta more doors are opened. When its deeper and a bit rougher i will use my 28 or 30 Slalom weed, but the Delta still is very sailable, it won't push upwind as high as a pointer, but come on, its not a race fin and thats not what it was designed for.
It loves to be powered up! i find when you are in that marginal wind when you should have rigged one sail size bigger, it is in its non preferred area.
As for the fin in front of the fin box, its hasn't been an issue for me, when i recieved the fins i spent a bit of time custom fitting them to my boards so that i had a perfect tight fit.
The Delta is a site specfic fin, if you love going fast and water depth and weed is an issue these fins are great and they won't disapoint.

Legless, as for the fin lift generated, it doesn't totally come from length, the Delta's have ample amount of surface area to produce plenty of lift, i have no problem getting for 90ltr board to lift and ride high on the fin, my last session peaking at 40knots.

Hope this helps a few sceptic's believe, i have a swag of them now and are quiet willing to let anyone have a go if they see me about.

legless
SA, 852 posts
25 Jul 2012 9:37PM
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sailpilot said...

Similarly to Snags I'd be interested to hear if these lower aspect fins are an option in ocean sailing conditions.? Also how much does area make up for the loss in length, eg what size delta would compare with a 32cm slalom fin for general reaching ?


They say that the equivalent slalom fin size to a Delta is just under double the depth of a Delta so in theory a 17 Delta would be equivalent to a 32 Slalom. But I have yet to use mine and am interested to see how they compare.

Kimba
SA, 456 posts
25 Jul 2012 11:44PM
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sausage said...

Is that honeycomb matting on the Delta 20 only a graphic inlay or does it have some 'structural' qualities?


The honeycomb looking mat appears to be Soric - a polyster based hexagonal core material containing microspheres. It is the resin infusion equivalent of coremat allowing resin to flow through the channels and the hexagonal cells to reduce weight. The result is a sandwich type structure similar to the pvc skin on a sandwich board.

Without seeing the fin in the flesh it is hard to tell if it is a moulded fin with the core offset from the outline, or a fin machined from a pre-fabricated panel.

legless
SA, 852 posts
26 Jul 2012 8:09AM
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Kimba said...

sausage said...

Is that honeycomb matting on the Delta 20 only a graphic inlay or does it have some 'structural' qualities?


The honeycomb looking mat appears to be Soric - a polyster based hexagonal core material containing microspheres. It is the resin infusion equivalent of coremat allowing resin to flow through the channels and the hexagonal cells to reduce weight. The result is a sandwich type structure similar to the pvc skin on a sandwich board.

Without seeing the fin in the flesh it is hard to tell if it is a moulded fin with the core offset from the outline, or a fin machined from a pre-fabricated panel.



I believe it is a fin machined from a pre-fabricated panel. It is a lot more transparent than the other Delta versions which you can't see through

ploppy
QLD, 167 posts
26 Jul 2012 10:04AM
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There are at present two sailors in Hervey Bay (soon to be three)
who have purchased Delta Slaloms (20,22.24).
Hoping to use at Burrum Heads as well as at Hervey Bay (very shallow).
Just waiting for some wind to try them out.

JonesySail
QLD, 1094 posts
26 Jul 2012 5:03PM
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Think I must have been asleep! Only just getting onto these weird triangle fins!

Shallow water is a killer for windsurfers everywhere, especially on the Sunshine Coast.... I have an unwanted z framed boom,(that was straight!) broken a few board noses over the years all courtesy of last second killer sandbanks...

This could be quite a revolution for the sport, open up many spots that have been unsailable or tide restricted!

If you can hit 40knts on one of these fins, handle chop well, gybe well, still get upwinish, apart from sailing upwind or lightwind sailing why would you not want one?

Am I missing something? More reviews?

Waiting4wind
NSW, 1871 posts
26 Jul 2012 7:09PM
Thumbs Up

JonesySail said...

Think I must have been asleep! Only just getting onto these weird triangle fins!

Shallow water is a killer for windsurfers everywhere, especially on the Sunshine Coast.... I have an unwanted z framed boom,(that was straight!) broken a few board noses over the years all courtesy of last second killer sandbanks...

This could be quite a revolution for the sport, open up many spots that have been unsailable or tide restricted!

If you can hit 40knts on one of these fins, handle chop well, gybe well, still get upwinish, apart from sailing upwind or lightwind sailing why would you not want one?

Am I missing something? More reviews?



They've been around for a year or two but ive never seen any reports from someone using them. So it s good to see some taking the plunge. Be keen to hear how they work for you ploppy

Glitch
QLD, 291 posts
27 Jul 2012 12:24AM
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I made a delta fin that is 11 cm deep and 22 cm long. it hasn't had a lot of use yet and I don't normally sail with a GPS so I cant say if it is faster or not. The main reason I made it was for low tide at Inverloch. I thought initially it would be garbage in the chop but went OK although it does needs to be a bit bigger. Where it is great is on the flatter shallow water where you can scare crap out of the kiters where you can overtake them when they are sitting close to the bank and then you can sneak up on them even closer to the bank. It is a buzz being able to sail on ankle deep water. Before speed builds up the board crabs a bit but once up on the plane it gets going in a straight line and although upwind performance wont mach a standard fin it does go better than I thought it would.

legless
SA, 852 posts
27 Jul 2012 4:44AM
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The white honey comb in the New version of the Delta has been done to reduce the weight and cost of the fin.

yoyo
WA, 1646 posts
27 Jul 2012 4:31PM
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Glitch said...

I made a delta fin that is 11 cm deep and 22 cm long. it hasn't had a lot of use yet and I don't normally sail with a GPS so I cant say if it is faster or not. The main reason I made it was for low tide at Inverloch. I thought initially it would be garbage in the chop but went OK although it does needs to be a bit bigger. Where it is great is on the flatter shallow water where you can scare crap out of the kiters where you can overtake them when they are sitting close to the bank and then you can sneak up on them even closer to the bank. It is a buzz being able to sail on ankle deep water. Before speed builds up the board crabs a bit but once up on the plane it gets going in a straight line and although upwind performance wont mach a standard fin it does go better than I thought it would.


I also made a 15 cm vortex-inducing fin about 12 years ago. Mine was an elliptical pointer that was crap. So I turned it around (sharp trailing edge in front). Made a mold of the new leading edge (old trailing edge) then put it over the now rounded trailing edge and filled it with chopped strand mat thereby making an elliptical biconvex foil. Then I raked the whole thing about 50-55 degrees. It was pretty good down wind but because it was so short it was a pain getting back upwind with the windward rail digging in. Back then Mandurah had spongy carpet like weed at Kite beach. I would walk 2 metres out from the beach. Put the board down with the fin on the weed spong, sheet in and the whole thing would move out like a train leaving the station. SMOOOOTH. Initially the board would crab, but in a totally controllable way (vortices from sharp leading edge keeping flow attached to the fin) and as you picked up speed the angle would reduce to normal. And when you returned you could basically sail up the beach like a beach cat.

As a speed fin it was no faster than other good fins. I made the mistake of sanding a slight ellipse into the leading edge to see if I could improve the down wind performance but I just killed the main redeeming feature. Its ability to work controllably at large AoA due to the vortices.

It will be interesting to see where this goes. They are not as efficient as normal fins but if you can sail in ankle/shin deep water maybe it doesn't need to be. Then again doing 80 km/h plus in shin deep water may not be very healthy if you crash.

slowboat
WA, 560 posts
27 Jul 2012 6:14PM
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careful in shallow water... I just spoke to Mattias in Sweden and he is yet another shallow water victim- off the water for 2 years with a shattered foot.

AUS4
NSW, 1274 posts
27 Jul 2012 9:15PM
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slowboat said...

careful in shallow water... I just spoke to Mattias in Sweden and he is yet another shallow water victim- off the water for 2 years with a shattered foot.


Chris, They will never listen.

Glitch
QLD, 291 posts
27 Jul 2012 10:03PM
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I'm listening, not paying attention, but listening.

Ian K
WA, 4120 posts
27 Jul 2012 9:30PM
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AUS4 said...

slowboat said...

careful in shallow water... I just spoke to Mattias in Sweden and he is yet another shallow water victim- off the water for 2 years with a shattered foot.


Chris, They will never listen.


A lot of speed sailors are now doing a lot of miles in shallow water so we maybe can try and quantify "yet another". I'm pretty conservative in shallow water, don't go less than knee deep, but it's just a guess. How dangerous is sailing ankle deep compared to riding a bike down a hill? We all know folks who've had injuries falling off bikes but still consider bike riding to be acceptably safe. The fellow who recently put up the video of his broken wrist apparently didn't even hit the bottom. Maybe if you're going fast enough and can tuck in your extremities it's impossible to hit the bottom on the first bounce no matter how shallow?

My observations are by no means statistically significant but the only shallow water crashes I've seen were sailors caught unawares by shallow water at Sandy Point - a mostly deep water location.

Haven't heard of any serious crashes at Lake Illawarra where the shallows are uniform and expected. The manufacturers of the new delta fins at 50 degrees imply that they can skim a gently rising bottom without throwing you off.

At the moment we're basing our assessment of the danger on intuition rather than real stats, no wonder there's disagreement. Ankle deep speed sailing may possibly be safer than riding the Tour De France.


Glitch
QLD, 291 posts
28 Jul 2012 12:38AM
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I remember reading in one of the magazines back in the 80s of a sailor in one of the NSW lakes coming to a sudden stop in shallow water and ending up a paraplegic . Any sailing in shallow water is not safe, especially with a harness. With a delta fin and soft sand the stop isn't as sudden but still fast enough to throw you off. I will continue using this type of fin and sail at speed over shallow water, and unhook as much as practacle, but it does give some margin of safty over using a standard fin sailing in areas where there are sand bars. You should always be aware of where the shallow points are and what the tides are doing so the time spent sailing over ankle deep water is limited and more often than not it will be at the point of gybing.

TASSIEROCKS
TAS, 1651 posts
28 Jul 2012 8:51AM
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slowboat said...

careful in shallow water... I just spoke to Mattias in Sweden and he is yet another shallow water victim- off the water for 2 years with a shattered foot.


I agree, you can have so much fun in rough water speed sailing and it is fantastic training for the big speed days as well. I like the fin concept but in Tassie shallow water means oysters sticking up out of the sand and they hurt when you tread or land on them.

Cheers Russ

kato
VIC, 3449 posts
28 Jul 2012 10:24AM
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At least at the Pit if you hit the bottom you get flung into deep water.Having broken my back once i have no interest in testing my luck again. Be very very careful

choco
SA, 4082 posts
28 Jul 2012 10:01AM
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kato said...

At least at the Pit if you hit the bottom you get flung into deep water.Having broken my back once i have no interest in testing my luck again. Be very very careful


at Lake George the only danger you have(most parts of the lake) is getting speared into the soft mud and suffocating to death

Waiting4wind
NSW, 1871 posts
28 Jul 2012 11:52AM
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I have a piece of my knee removed as a result of a shallow water crash. it was painful then but it's allways here to haunt me as there isn't enough ligament left to avoid premature wear...and it is wearing way.

The bank I hit, i had sailed over a number of times fully powered, however a small lull had the board sitting a little lower and that was enough to stop me dead and shred my knee!

But, I have done the other knee as well in deep water. Landed a jump badly, one foot came out of the strap the other didn't...pop!

slowboat
WA, 560 posts
28 Jul 2012 11:29AM
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Ian K said...
A lot of speed sailors are now doing a lot of miles in shallow water so we maybe can try and quantify "yet another".

I can quantify "yet another" for myself. Its at least 5 people I know personally who destroyed their foot/leg/knee crashing in shallow water.

Enough for me to say "be careful". Not saying "dont do it".

If theres a risk of crashing theres a greater chance of injury if the water is really shallow. Much bigger solid thing to hit (the ground), which hurts even at low speeds. Dont need a stats analysis for that.



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"Which one will be fastest?" started by legless