Select to expand quoteUnderoath said..
Just an observation.
The biggest game changer is working on ones fitness. I'm 172cms tall and 84kgs. I need to loose around 5kgs.
The last couple of weeks I started setting some goals. Been working on my fitness and core strength.
I keep this up for the next 2 months, I'll be stronger, fitter, heather, lighter and more powerful. Naturally this will cost nothing.
If there was a kite marketed, that had lighter bar pressure, more efficient, made you jump higher/longer and had more power, people would spend the
$$$ to get it.
Its like seeing fat blokes on super efficient race bikes, well done on exercising, but the 10k efficient bike shouldn't be the priority. Get fit first.
Afternoon rant over.
Is it ok if I push for gear that works at my current weight? It does not help that the marketing department of every kite company makes ridiculous claims that is not supported by the gear. It gets made worse when a company spends to make one part of the gear - the kite - great and then leaves another part of the system - the bar and lines - perpetually defective, then sells on the basis of performance.
Exhibit A - the SLingshot Rally circa 2012-2015
Wingtips would bend under resistance form heavier rider. If the kite does not turn when a line is pulle dbut simply bends, does the kite company get off scott free in your book? The retailers will NOT refund on an issue like this. Years later, the designer admits to it in an interview.
Exhibit B - Naish Torch 2017 (with ESP!) a reinforced kite great for heavier riders. Marketed as a super booster and kite looping machine. Except the lines have a breaking force of 200 kg - so anyone weighing in at 100kg will constantly be breaking/stretching out their lines with just a weak kiteloop (forget about a megaloop)
How about brands take abit of responsibility for living up to their marketing? I went out and got a credit card with special warranty coverage in the event of a warranty claim rejection, just for kiting since so many companies are full of it. So, when it comes time for forums or when my students ask me what to buy, there is a list of companies I just wont send them to.
So I need to be a skinny boy in order to kite? Can we put that in the marketing? Credit to Blade for actually doing that, its why I never went for the Trigger despite liking the Fat Lady.
Start with the fact you are on two front flying lines, the rear lines are not under that much tension.
Second, when you jump high and throw an aggressive kiteloop, it creates a force (measured in gforce) that is then multiplied by your body weight in kg, which is basically equal to your breaking force (measured in daN). Anyone doing kiteloops will generate more than 1G altho I dont think anyone in this sport can get past 4Gs altho the MEgaloop CHallenge guys prob come the closest. Interestingly, the Woo device actually measures Gforce altho the standard output shows gforce at landing whereas you need gforce at takeoff (takeoff IS measured just have to dig into the data of the device). So it can be measured! and by low level consumer devices!
Next, in the case of Naish, the design of the lines has been a front high Y split on the flying lines ATTACHED via a Y connector to a SINGLE line that supports virtually all of the power on the kite. Can a 110kg rider like me beak 200kg lines (a Gforce close to 2)? I have three Naish bars with broken/horribly stretched out lines, two of which have been re-cut multiple times. Naish five line bars are common in Second Hand shops - but check the line tuning before you buy! Permanent elongation, or stretching (not elastic like stretching that rebounds after the session) is a lower order failure but still a failure!
The kicker is, the kite holds up - I rode my 2014 8m Torch in 55kts at 110kg (weight before board and soaked wetsuit and boots) in Cape Town throwing loops and the Canopy is not bagged out. But the lines, I go thru em like beer on Oktoberfest. I had a custom lineset made from SLingshot's 800lb (360kg) centerlines off an old SS bar I had. I just recently noticed they had stretched, after about 6 months of hard use. THen a manufacturer does a test of all the aftermarket lines (the lines on our bars) and sure enough, Naish came in dead last.
Marketing - you can go big and ride hard on our kite, the kite has special reinforcements!
Operations - we can't be bothered to build a decent bar/lineset combo that allows you to actually do this. No refunds.
Kite companies should be held liable to their marketing "image". Of course, a free market allows this - provided the information gets out to the purchasing group. And so here we are, with a kiter dreaming of a bar that is properly designed for his kite, redesigning, and cutting his own lineset, to do the work the kite designer should have done in the first place.
A Game Changer? How about a product that lives up to its marketing image!
If you're going to megaloop I'd be riding what someone like len10 does.. He doesn't complain about line and
bar issues! But nice rant n diss miss!
Game Changers for me in the kitesurfing industry.
1) Cabrinha crossbow. The first bow kite ever, made kiting easy.
2) Fifth line on kites. Before Bows, deltas, hybrids. it made kiting safer and easier.
2) Slingshot fuel 2009. A real C kite that could be used in proper wind ranges, could relaunch.
3) Slingshot RPM.
4) Naish torch and Early Vegas.
5) Slingshot Bar and lines 2010. I still use this on 2 of my kites. Not even the pigtails have frayed. Prestreched lines that are over engineered
6) Best TS, a true allrounder yet in waves was the first kites I rode that properly drifted.
7) Proper QR systems that release under any load rather than a loop of rope and a pin.
8) Valves that are plastic welded and dont fall off after a season when the goop fails.
9) Board design from 2008. Nobile and Shinn lead the way.
10) Lightwind kite from 2014 on.
As a friend of mine said. Theres a difference between leading technology and bleeding technology. The only advantage I can see with FIREball is a reduction of a steering line getting wrapped around your harness hook. Why you have a crap kite or you havent had lessons.
The clicky bar being especially good in waves???No, downwind riding waves you need more bar pressure to keep the kite responsive as you lose apparent wind. I cant imagine a guy doing a committed bottom turn and at the same time reaching over and screwing a thread...... This bar will be good for freestyle as the rider can come in an choose that they want to do.Boost or do wakestyle, push a button, depower and throw a spinny. No offence to Spinnies.
3 pages now to a topic, are these ideas "game changers", lets call these innovations, as North and Cabs have unfortunately used a slogan that will not live up to the marketing hype.
BTW Chris Eppstein, What are your game changers. Number 11 on my list would be the Rebel, yet kooks had major line wrap issues. Beautiful kite to fly, yet had to rescue too many dudes from woodies with a munted left wraparound
Select to expand quotedave...... said..
Game Changers for me in the kitesurfing industry.
1) Cabrinha crossbow. The first bow kite ever, made kiting easy.
2) Fifth line on kites. Before Bows, deltas, hybrids. it made kiting safer and easier.
2) Slingshot fuel 2009. A real C kite that could be used in proper wind ranges, could relaunch.
3) Slingshot RPM.
4) Naish torch and Early Vegas.
5) Slingshot Bar and lines 2010. I still use this on 2 of my kites. Not even the pigtails have frayed. Prestreched lines that are over engineered
6) Best TS, a true allrounder yet in waves was the first kites I rode that properly drifted.
7) Proper QR systems that release under any load rather than a loop of rope and a pin.
8) Valves that are plastic welded and dont fall off after a season when the goop fails.
9) Board design from 2008. Nobile and Shinn lead the way.
10) Lightwind kite from 2014 on.
As a friend of mine said. Theres a difference between leading technology and bleeding technology. The only advantage I can see with FIREball is a reduction of a steering line getting wrapped around your harness hook. Why you have a crap kite or you havent had lessons.
The clicky bar being especially good in waves???No, downwind riding waves you need more bar pressure to keep the kite responsive as you lose apparent wind. I cant imagine a guy doing a committed bottom turn and at the same time reaching over and screwing a thread...... This bar will be good for freestyle as the rider can come in an choose that they want to do.Boost or do wakestyle, push a button, depower and throw a spinny. No offence to Spinnies.
3 pages now to a topic, are these ideas "game changers", lets call these innovations, as North and Cabs have unfortunately used a slogan that will not live up to the marketing hype.
11) The gojoe
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
The bottom line is that you don't have to buy a Click Bar if you don't want to.
How many times have I read that throw-away line in the threads ? ^^^
Numerous times. It's getting old.
A stupid marketing blurb that has a slight ring of arrogance about it.
lol.
"You don't have to buy the CLICK bar, we aren't forcing you."
"You can always go with the TRUST."
Trust. haha
Select to expand quotedave...... said...
BTW Chris Eppstein, What are your game changers. Number 11 on my list would be the Rebel, yet kooks had major line wrap issues. Beautiful kite to fly, yet had to rescue too many dudes from woodies with a munted left wraparound
Reckon ya covered it pretty much agree with all those above.
Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel. It can happen though for sure. Bridal less, pulley less loaded fifth unique to the market.
Innovations better description.
Trust bar is a perfectly good bar. But you don't have to buy one if you don't want one 
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel.
I don't beliefe you! 
Seen some many North guys swimming with a fifth line wrapped around the kite .... always a good laugh but one less in the surf is good anyway 
Select to expand quoteFly on da wall said..
If you're going to megaloop I'd be riding what someone like len10 does.. He doesn't complain about line and
bar issues! But nice rant n diss miss!
Len10's kite, the Extract, is not for sale anymore.
My favorite rider atm is Kevin Langeree, who rides a Naish Torch. I also ride Torches. The kite is not the problem.
Lines wise, neither Kevin Langeree nor Jesse Richman use stock lines. One advantage of living on Maui is I get to interact with the super pros and see what they are riding. Love Jesse's "Always On" bar with no trim that has nothing to do with any commercially produced bar/lines. THing is, these are not commercially produced and if you buy what is commercially produced, it fails when you put it to the test. Therein lies my beef. Extra salty! 
The brands encourage you to use their gear a certain way and the gear cannot actually do it.
Slingshot's Rally was a good example, they marketed the hell out of it, but under severe stress, those wingtips would bend instead of the kite turning. This created really bad performance issues and the kite did not do what it was claimed it could do. Did anyone ever get a refund? No, the brand fought and defended their product for years and then last year the designer flat out admitted it.
Marketing vs actual performance. Thing is, dont market a set of ropes as being 100 kg strength if they are really only 20 kg strong.
The game changers that I can remember:
5 lines
One pump
Cross Bow
Wide entry inflation
Click bar, doesn't improve ease of use, safety or fun. Cosmetic only.
Cab ball thingy, nice concept, but a nice little floored ATM.
Always good to see some developments though.
Select to expand quotemarco said..
eppo said..
Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel.
I don't beliefe you!
Seen some many North guys swimming with a fifth line wrapped around the kite .... always a good laugh but one less in the surf is good anyway
Believe what you want. I rarely crash or make a mistake,sometimes when trying to new stuff and you fly under the kite. The secret is to be willing to hit the quick release if you see potential for this to happen. I have had the fifth line go inside one of the outside lines or is it one of the front lines..can't remember, but just ride it back to shore and reset..or do it on the fly but I never do that even though i could..safety first always.
Cubalota (however you spelled it) did a great vid on different safety systems showing this. But yes, to the unlearned their is potential for a fifth line wrap for sure.
if ya serious about wave riding you wouldn't be on a rebel anyway.
But if you are serious about big floaty vertical air, near or beyond the specified max wind range, yet coupled with enough stability for simple tweaked board offs, nothing comes close in my humble opinion. Core XR the runner up.
If you want what the rebel offers but don't because of the fifth line, your a fool without a clue.
Except if ya Kevin Langaree on a torch, but none of us on here are remotely this good! He's as good as it gets.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..marco said..
eppo said..
Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel.
I don't beliefe you!
Seen some many North guys swimming with a fifth line wrapped around the kite .... always a good laugh but one less in the surf is good anyway
Believe what you want. I rarely crash or make a mistake,sometimes when trying to new stuff and you fly under the kite. The secret is to be willing to hit the quick release if you see potential for this to happen. I have had the fifth line go inside one of the outside lines or is it one of the front lines..can't remember, but just ride it back to shore and reset..or do it on the fly but I never do that even though i could..safety first always.
Cubalota (however you spelled it) did a great vid on different safety systems showing this. But yes, to the unlearned their is potential for a fifth line wrap for sure.
if ya serious about wave riding you wouldn't be on a rebel anyway.
Agreed!The reason we designed the NEO to be on the quad bar, is to eliminate this issue.
Select to expand quotebjw said...
The game changers that I can remember:
5 lines
One pump
Cross Bow
Wide entry inflation
Click bar, doesn't improve ease of use, safety or fun. Cosmetic only.
Cab ball thingy, nice concept, but a nice little floored ATM.
Always good to see some developments though.
Click bar does fix a number of issues, ease of use and safety fun for some people.
Short armed people can now reach the trim and quickly depower the kite instantly without trying to stretch out and fumble for a strap or fight against a unfriendly below bar trim chord.
Impared people with loss of strength in the arms (I know of 1 with only 30% strength) can trim the kite much easier. As there is little pull on side lines.
For some this bar is a game changer and fixes issues they had with other bars.
For me the bar fixes nothing that I am use to dealing with. If I had the cash I would buy this bar as it's an excellent bar with a ton of great features. For now i will stick with a simpler affordable setup, I like having 3 bars. I don't have or want to spend 3000 on 3 bars. But for many cashed up kiters 1000 for a bar is nothing.
Select to expand quoteKiteDesigner said..
Click bar does fix a number of issues, ease of use and safety fun for some people.
Short armed people can now reach power and quickly depower the bar instantly without trying to stretch out and fumble for a strap or fight against a unfriendly below bar depower
Impared people with loss of strength in the arms (I know of 1 with only 30% strength) can power depower the kite much easier. As there is little pull on side lines.
For some this bar is a game changer and fixes. Major issues they had with other bars.
But for me the bar fixes nothing. If I had the cash I would buy it as it's an excellent bar. For now i will stick with a simpler affordable setup, I like having 3 bars. I don't have or want to spend 3000 on 3 bars.
Quit saying 'power' and 'depower' when referring to that peppergrinder lever-action.
It's called trimming. ok
You should know that being a kite designer and all.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..dave...... said...
BTW Chris Eppstein, What are your game changers. Number 11 on my list would be the Rebel, yet kooks had major line wrap issues. Beautiful kite to fly, yet had to rescue too many dudes from woodies with a munted left wraparound
Reckon ya covered it pretty much agree with all those above.
Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel. It can happen though for sure. Bridal less, pulley less loaded fifth unique to the market.
Innovations better description.
Trust bar is a perfectly good bar. But you don't have to buy one if you don't want one
I don't get your issue. It's like you're a $50K BMW 3 series buyer and you're complaining about BMW releasing an M6 for $300K because you don't want to spend $300K on a car. You can still buy the 3 series BMW.
Select to expand quoteUnderoath said..
How does a 100kg rider break 800kg (4 lines)
Something is a miss here.
It's called the "zipper" effect. One line breaks so all the force is shock loaded to the other line which breaks as well.
I understand being disappointed that gear doesn't cope with a 110kg rider. It's kind of reasonable in that the manufacturers quote wind ranges for a typical 75-80kg rider. I think I know only two guys who go close to 100kg and they're pretty low energy riders. The chances of them breaking any line are pretty slim.
It's easy enough to work around. Switch sell 395kg line sets for less than $100, and Ozone do 500kg line sets. You can buy 2mm spectra with 880kg breaking load for $30 for a 20m length.
Select to expand quoteSaffer said..eppo said..dave...... said...
BTW Chris Eppstein, What are your game changers. Number 11 on my list would be the Rebel, yet kooks had major line wrap issues. Beautiful kite to fly, yet had to rescue too many dudes from woodies with a munted left wraparound
Reckon ya covered it pretty much agree with all those above.
Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel. It can happen though for sure. Bridal less, pulley less loaded fifth unique to the market.
Innovations better description.
Trust bar is a perfectly good bar. But you don't have to buy one if you don't want one
I don't get your issue. It's like you're a $50K BMW 3 series buyer and you're complaining about BMW releasing an M6 for $300K because you don't want to spend $300K on a car. You can still buy the 3 series BMW.
Sorry? I don't get the issue I have an issue with, in that I don't really have an issue to start with. Where in the above posts do dave or I have an issue?
Select to expand quoteeppo said..Saffer said..eppo said..dave...... said...
BTW Chris Eppstein, What are your game changers. Number 11 on my list would be the Rebel, yet kooks had major line wrap issues. Beautiful kite to fly, yet had to rescue too many dudes from woodies with a munted left wraparound
Reckon ya covered it pretty much agree with all those above.
Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel. It can happen though for sure. Bridal less, pulley less loaded fifth unique to the market.
Innovations better description.
Trust bar is a perfectly good bar. But you don't have to buy one if you don't want one
I don't get your issue. It's like you're a $50K BMW 3 series buyer and you're complaining about BMW releasing an M6 for $300K because you don't want to spend $300K on a car. You can still buy the 3 series BMW.
Sorry? I don't get the issue I have an issue with, in that I don't really have an issue to start with. Where in the above posts do dave or I have an issue?
Hmmmmm, I think I will have to use a more stringent approach. We're lapsing back in time.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
Underoath said..
How does a 100kg rider break 800kg (4 lines)
Something is a miss here.
It's called the "zipper" effect. One line breaks so all the force is shock loaded to the other line which breaks as well.
I understand being disappointed that gear doesn't cope with a 110kg rider. It's kind of reasonable in that the manufacturers quote wind ranges for a typical 75-80kg rider. I think I know only two guys who go close to 100kg and they're pretty low energy riders. The chances of them breaking any line are pretty slim.
It's easy enough to work around. Switch sell 395kg line sets for less than $100, and Ozone do 500kg line sets. You can buy 2mm spectra with 880kg breaking load for $30 for a 20m length.
Standard lines for any brand will not break when kitelooping - unless a line is damaged.
EDIT" Gorgo, after 10 years and 65,000 posts- why don't you have an avatar?
I agree with Kitedesigner . If you only buy one bar, then why not buy the click. But if kite strong winds it's good to own 3 bars so that your high wind bar is nice and newish. Not flogged. There is alot to be said for buying a cheaper bar such as the Griffin, replace them more often. That's got to be a safer option.
I went and picked up a Cabrihna 2015 bar last year and couldn't be happier with my spend in comparison to my previous 2012 bar.
A new bar meant new lines, new click in/out bar extension and an upgraded way to re-set the bar if I do decide to ditch the kite (the old one frankly was a pain in the arse and required three hands or a foot to re-set so I usually didn't ditch it).
As kite companies are selling kites and bars separately now I would think they will ALL be bringing out new 'game changing' ideas every season. Kite upgrades alone won't make you upgrade your gear.
Honestly, Im not quite sure how this seems to be offending so many people.. You don't have to buy them Wvslv
The other thing with bars is they plummet in price - check out where the old stock and second hand gear prices are at!! Pick it up out of date if you are a tight arse like me.. Or you use your old gear until it breaks or becomes as old as the two line kites are now.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..Saffer said..eppo said..dave...... said...
BTW Chris Eppstein, What are your game changers. Number 11 on my list would be the Rebel, yet kooks had major line wrap issues. Beautiful kite to fly, yet had to rescue too many dudes from woodies with a munted left wraparound
Reckon ya covered it pretty much agree with all those above.
Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel. It can happen though for sure. Bridal less, pulley less loaded fifth unique to the market.
Innovations better description.
Trust bar is a perfectly good bar. But you don't have to buy one if you don't want one
I don't get your issue. It's like you're a $50K BMW 3 series buyer and you're complaining about BMW releasing an M6 for $300K because you don't want to spend $300K on a car. You can still buy the 3 series BMW.
Sorry? I don't get the issue I have an issue with, in that I don't really have an issue to start with. Where in the above posts do dave or I have an issue?
Sorry, I clicked the wrong quote button. It was meant to be a quote about Waveslave's complaint.
Ah cool. Look waveslave believes in the KISS principle. He also believes the more specialised gear becomes the more the kite companies have you over a barrel when it comes to spare parts etc. let's liken it to a car you could find parts and even work on 15 years ago... Mostly forget it now with the new ones.
Fck he doesn't even use a trimmer for Fck sake, just a few knots above his bar. his bar to me is an abortion but it works hey. As I said he keeps it simple. Good on him I say. Some find him confronting, I reckon he's a funny old crunt, not stupid by any stretch of the imagination and get along with him well. kite with him all the time and his wonderful wife.
That's the thing hey, we may come across sometimes, including me, as wankers, but really I reckon most on here are decent human beings just talking sh1t. Lol.
He's right in a way about KISS, But that's progress. We can't stand still as I see it.
Anyhow that's where all his comments come from.
Don't wuz freeze i'm on it. Seeya in a while.
Eppo
Select to expand quoteUnderoath said..
Just an observation.
The biggest game changer is working on ones fitness. I'm 172cms tall and 84kgs. I need to loose around 5kgs.
The last couple of weeks I started setting some goals. Been working on my fitness and core strength.
I keep this up for the next 2 months, I'll be stronger, fitter, heather, lighter and more powerful. Naturally this will cost nothing.
If there was a kite marketed, that had lighter bar pressure, more efficient, made you jump higher/longer and had more power, people would spend the
$$$ to get it.
Its like seeing fat blokes on super efficient race bikes, well done on exercising, but the 10k efficient bike shouldn't be the priority. Get fit first.
Afternoon rant over.
Haha. Yes. This. This This. 
Good attitude, you'll have a strong season with this mindset.
Select to expand quoteJOYRIDER said..eppo said..
By Christ you are a bunch of whining bitches at the moment...
What gives...maybe you guys are the dickheads, every thought that?
I agree with Eppo.
Chances are the reason why you have bad experiences with shops, is because your a "shop around", unloyal, pest that wants a deal or a discount for nothing.The simple thing with this bar and lollipop spreader is.... IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT BUY IT!
But your uneducated skeptical opinion stinks and it's killing the fun, good reading that seabreeze used to have.
Rant over
Boy, sorry to outrage the ranters
If you think the issues I've heard are about not receiving appropriate discounts, then you'd be mistaken. I think my description made it clear some of the areas which could use some work. All with very straight forward solutions. If the shops/industry aren’t interested in listening to concerns and only fanboy praise. Well, there’s only one direction their businesses will go. History says and human nature dictates this. Ignore at your peril.
Which reminds me. In addition, I’ve noticed when the industry or a shop is criticised, the backlash can often be abusive, irrational and disproportionate to the criticism. For the type of industry kitesurfing wants to be, it’s a big mistake. To chastise clients and potential clients is sales and marketing death 101. Then the fan boys get involved and you have an overall associated bad experience.
This aside. I don’t see why there is a problem with shopping around. Normal practice in the rest of the retail world. Why should the kiting industry be different (Eppo says they're same same)? Various retailers even promote it by offering price matching. If the industry wants to move into the mainstream, which it does. It has to come to terms with contemporary sales challenges.
In the meantime you both fit in perfectly with the present industry rhetoric. But what would I know hey, opinions are like assholes.
Select to expand quoteJOYRIDER said..
But your uneducated skeptical opinion stinks and it's killing the fun, good reading that seabreeze used to have.
Rant over, day off, going kiting!
RE: "good reading that seabreeze used to have"
That would have been when we could Red Thumb some of the crap but no no some didn't want that they wanted everyone to post their opinions - so that's what we got. Now the wheels turned and some aren't happy with all the opinions.... so where to now??
Maybe we should just go and smoke some pot in a combi van and sing Kumbaya
