@cbulota
I see your point, but you’re just saying if they do it wrong or are taught incorrectly?
Yes if a student stuffs it up, it will take longer, they will go down wind more, they will have losts of tangles, and at the very worst if they don’t secure the safety line 1st, their kite could power up and they will have to do a full release.
This is all very bad but in all cases the student will not get harmed. Now let’s look at your method.
The student can easily, from doing it wrong end up with line all over them and could even have a powered up kite wrapped around them! All it takes is a swim down centre line, choke on some water let go of the line and its serious not happy time. I seen it happen where the student let go because the line pulled as the kite flipped. Lucky we had Jet Ski rescue otherwise, she would have been well fooked up.
To me your experiment proves that, following the line is faster, it does not prove safer with a newbie student.
Pinnaroo is a nice beech with zero coral or rock, all it takes is one little rock or bit of coral/rock to either tangle or cut your lines. Again remember I am talking about newbies. I done a few seasons teaching in Greece and when stuff like this happened, 9 times outta ten it was with a newbie who had learnt your method at some sand only location.
So always, always teach wind the bar, IMHO
yes interesting indeed.
I have self rescued twice with the wind up method. Bith times i was a significant distance out. 500+ meters. enough time to wind up before hitting any breakers.
Other times closer to shore in the surf I have chosen to get dragged in by the kite. but only small swell.
Medium swell I punch to the safety and then allow the kite to drag me in on the safety.
Big swell i decide if its safe to swim in. If so i punch out completely let the kite make its way to shore and i swim in.
We are talking about what is the best/safest method of self-rescue to teach a newbie, you're now moving on to how bad it is taught. I agree beach demos or quick shallow water instruction of either method is not good, but bad instruction of "wind the bar" is still safer than bad instruction of "follow the centreline". IMHO
As for how I teach? Well it depends what school I am at, some are very strict about how they want things done, others aren't, however when it's up to me I allocate at least 20mins on a self-rescue. I make sure the student does all of the important bits and that they float while they do them, I also reinforce the dangers and consideration points. I think it's so important; it gives the student so much more confidence in the water, it also lets them reflect and remember, that what they are learning to do does have some real danger and demands respect.
Teaching quality aside, the fact is your method is very dangerous! If the student lets go half way down the line, they are in all kinds of trouble. Don't say it won't happen because it will and does I have 1st hand experience in it.
As others have said, good on ya for taking the time and putting this together. I however as yet still do not believe your method is safer, for me that is the most important part.
This like many things have been covered before, here is a link to the same topic
www.bayareakiteboarding.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8807&sid=7c0e604e3399b8e49b480e182de021da
I agree with these points:
If the lines get wrapped around me > screwed
If the lines get caught on someone trying to help me > screwed
If the lines get caught on something submurged/rocks > screwed
If the lines catch on the prop/impeller of the boat trying to rescue me > screwed
If this method of not wrapping the lines was VERY dangerous as you said, then how come we never had any issues with over 1000 different individuals trying it alone in deep water in any wind conditions, most of the time well over 20 knots?
You also answered my question by not answering my question, so you do not teach people to wrap lines around the bar in deep waters and strong winds in your lessons, you wouldn't be able to do that in 20-30 minutes anyways.
Any untrained student who tries wrap lines in strong winds is not worth much when comes to real scenario in strong wind and deep water. Wrapping the lines IS dangerous if you are not capable of doing it well, easily and efficiently and there are plenty of those examples where I work or people trying to do that (not our student obviously) and failing miserably, they end up giving up wrapping their lines and tangling up like there is no tomorrow and also drift so far downwind they need to be helped. A common occurrence at my local spot.
The day you see ALL your students wrapping their lines successfully and quickly on the bar in strong wind and deep water is the day when I will change my mind and start to believe that this method is better and safer. Until then this method is only as valid as the student's actual capability of achieving it, which is quite low from my observations and assisted kite/boat rescues in the last 3 years.
Yes it can be improved by practice, but how much practice you would actually need for this method to actually work well in strong winds? I know I need a lot more practice if I want to safely wrap my lines around the bar in strong winds...and I've been kiting for a couple of years on a full time basis.
If that's not enough to change your mind I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at this.
Thanks for doing this....very valuable information.
I will definitely give it a go next time I'm out.
Cbultoa and vwpete,
Though you are in major disagreement, I would just like to say that both your opinions and knowledge are bloody helpful in preparing for the next self rescue I do, which will be at unknown time, and unknown circumstances. Thankyou and keep contributing.
Loving this topic guys. As a newbie who has had to self rescue, I have a question to add to the debate.
Methods to depower an out of control kite?
The "Oh crap" handles?
My manufacturer has them on my bar, but they are not listed in the manual and apart from reading forums and word of mouth, I still have no 100% factual use for these things.
If you attach your leash to one and then release your safety, the kite should flag out dead as a maggot, with you attached to a flying line and the other lines with no tension.
Please advise if this is correct and a suitable method to use as an option if you are really in deep manure for whatever reason. (heavily weeded lines that wont depower using the safety for example)
OK.Supposing some guy is found dead with his bridle lines and one flying line weeded up so badly the safety depower wouldnt work.
The one remaining flying line with the Oh Crap handle could have saved his butt, but the manufacturer had no information in the owner manual regarding its use.
Whose fault is that????
I hope this fires a healthy debate.
Keep the input coming as it is great . Great work cbulota with the vids got to ask the queston why did no one come to you while you were doing it, there were others kiting there . I find it hard to belive that not one person come to check on you . Kiters should be looking out for fello kiters .
Just my thoughts .
... something else that has been missed in the discussion so far, what happens when you get to the kite and your either too tired or not strong enough to flip the kite over. Maybe your too buggered or just not very strong.
Sounds like such a benign thing but if your a 5'4" girl on a big kite, the damn thing is not easy to flip over. Being 6'4" gorilla myself, the thought never crossed my mind til my missus had to slelf rescue. She was in a bit of a panic, the thought of sharks and what not and was not clearly thinking. She just couldn't flip it over.
Next day we did the exercises and with a little technique, it was easy and the relief on her face was fantastic. But without the 'tricks' I showed her, she would never have done it.
When my son was learning I made him at the end of every session, punch out and do a self rescue, even though he was in waist deep water, I made him simulate the rescue, swimming as if in deep water. Once he did it in his sleep, we didn't practice it anymore and I was happy.
chees for now,
Robbie 
ps good topic, always worth revisiting self rescuing tecniques.
One thing not mentioned is the importance of understanding the kite and how it will behave. This is key to both methods discussed.
Cbulota emphasised pulling up the line, not swimming toward the kite, and vwpete the importance of wrapping the flagging line first.
At my local I've seen instructors swinging kites around by the bridle to show how safe they are when no load is on the back lines.
Linking this with what you are trying to achieve by either method would be helpful.
Understanding what you are doing is just as important as knowing what to do so you can adapt if the situation warrants it.
Thanks cbulota for taking the time - seeing it makes it easier to follow.
Next time I think I'll try a hybrid method:
Wrap up the flagging line so the bar stays close.
Pull myself up to the kite.
Flip it, sit on the leading edge and wrap up the rest of the lines.
On my first self-rescue the local instructor came out to check on me. I'd hate to see someone get tangled in lines trailing out behind me.
At puets misses i had a big wipe out in a very bad spot i was half winded and was in a sharky area i got to kite by the flag line and just climbed on to the kite i treated it like a big blow up boat i didnt try to turn over just got on it as fast as i could then just wound my lines up there . even with the kite lying on its belly i just grab a steer line and lifted the side up (bent the leading edge ) and then sail to shore whilst was on the kite . Wasnt the best way but shore felt safer then draging around in the water got to see 3 big swerls of water behind me and the kite that day i think they were just checking what i was anyhow i dont kite there any more . But answers some question if you are hurt get to kite and climb on it at least you are afloat .
Piont veron rocks kinda sux as it gets some sweet as swell in there . I was sure glad i could self rescue quickly that day hence why i got winded 1st wave was good to get over the second one hit me like someone had hit me with a house door . So self rescue is NOT just for gear failure or wind drop can be for personal reasons everyone should know how to do it in there sleep as i nearly was asleep .
Something no one has mentioned yet is WHY are you doing the self rescue - this has a factor in the way you do it.
1) Burst bladder = no pull. Best to wrap lines perfectly (did this two weeks ago).
2) Wind died = same as above.
3) Kite inverted/center line wrapped around kite/etc... = very hard to wrap, usually you're holding one line hoping it doesnt spin and power up. I usully try to got to the kite as quickly as possible when this happens and only hold one line. If I'm worried about tangles I'll actually disconnect from my harness and let the bar drift using a single line to get to the kite quickly.
4) center line snapped = ???
5) many more...
All of these are different to self rescuing with a perfectly functioning kite in 16 knots...
Thanks for all the comments and advice. The more knowlege we have, the better. It might save your life.
All my more experienced kiter mates have told me to expect more kitemares.
Even more reason to be as well prepared as possible. I will be practicing self rescues for sure and I do know the O crap handles are not your BEST option for killing a kite.
Heres what I reckon: Scenario. Weeded lines, looping kite, out of control, being dragged backwards after releasing your safety. No depower.
1. Ditch the kite and swim in.
2. Supposing you are extremely stubborn and still refuse to ditch. As a last resort. Grab the O crap, Whichever looks like it might help most.
Release the leash.
If you cant hang on to the O crap, it really is time to let it go and start swimming.
PS my kitemare of weeded lines at the swivel that grabbed a steering line and started looping the kite was a real experience. No depower. Fortunately after many years of surfing and life threatening hold downs, I didnt panic, climbed the centre lines to the weed ball and dumped the kite into the water. The rest was easy. (dont think about sharks!)
But that was me. Someone else may not have managed.
More thoughts on O crap handles are welcome. Please!
Great thread guys. As a kite school operator it has made me put more thought into the issue.
I dont see anything wrong with either method - just pros & cons of each.
From a teaching perspective I believe we need to teach both - thoroughly.
Everytime I have had to self rescue (not many in 10 yrs) there has been pretty clear indications for me to choose between 'wind' or 'not to wind' (referred to most often as a 'pack-down').
Again by pure chance the 'not to wind' was appropriate for me each time. But had I been in different circumstances I may well choose to 'wind'.
Wind Offshore - yep probably full pack-down
Relying on a boat pick-up - almost certainly full pack-down
Out the back of a heavy surf break - yep if possible a pack-down preparing to surf boogy-board style in with the kite.
To the newbs (and others) - NEVER over-rate saving your kite. If you are in real trouble assess how much reserve energy you have to possibly complicate saving yourself by including saving your kite.
And when doing this also allow for the benefits your kite may provide in the rescue situation. Sometimes it will be best choice to save the life raft ???
Every situation will produce its own unique set of variables.
So exit students should be fully aware of both options & the likelihood that may have to make the call on which is appro. & safest.
Thanks cbulota for starting this thread and doing the videos.
I like the IDS Cabrinhas partly because when packing down, you only have to wind on 2.5m of flagging line and because the rear lines have very little slack in them, there is no loose line floating around in the water as you wind all 4 lines on. The only loose line is the 2.5m flagging line, or a line which has broken and caused the packdown.
The only problem is if the kite is in the U position and the wind is strong and it will then YoYo up and down with the same pull as a kite on a fifth line. That makes it harder to wind the lines, and I tend to turn the bar end over end to wind them on the bar ends, or if that's too difficult, then just wind them onto one end of the bar. I haven't had to do a deep water pack-down yet.
Your pull yourself to the kite on the flagging line method is quick and I think it compares well with wrapping the lines on a one front line flagging kite because you will always have a lot of 3 loose lines in the water while you wrap all 4 lines on the bar, so you can still have problems with lines getting tangled on your legs. Only thing is, you are more likely to have to let go of the single line than to have to let go of the bar.
Stickied - this is arguably the important thread in these whole forums for kiters.
cbulota: Thanks for putting in the time and sharing!
FYI guys, found this as i was researching, hope everyone finds it useful.
www.thekiteboarder.com/2009/12/when-things-go-wrong/
Here are some video tutorials for two methods of self-rescue.
The first video is the self-rescue method which doesn't involve wrapping any lines around the bar, which works for most scenarios.
Hi cbulota
Thanks for taking the time to wake us all up. After years of kiting we forget the basics and it can happen to anyone. I for one has had a great reminder of the perils that can happen and will learn from your experience. Thanks again.
Great topic this. I always teach with winding the lines. Think of what could happen the kite would take off with lines dangling around the student! flat or shoredump, 15 or 25 knots, we always do a deep water self rescue.
Other main reason I did not see pass by is that when the kite is still downwind of you the lines stay a bit taut and on the surface, unlikely to tangle on something below. Yes, they will be hard to wind up in a stiff breeze; but if they get caught behind something below they might start to pull you under.
In big waves its all going to be different I agree.
Slightly offtopic: I find the one line flag out with a stopper ball is far superior over the two line flag out over the width of the kite. This second system doesnt work great. And the one line can fix an inverted kite easy too.
