Hi. I'm researching new kites and am a little confused about the number of struts. Some, like the naish ride have only 2 while others obviously have more. Can anyone help me understand the pros and cons of more/less struts please. Cheerd
Pros:
Stability
Strengthen and support the leading edge
And profile to the canopy
Cons:
Weight
Cost (probably not to maker)
Increased number of fail points
typically 3 strut kites are better at drifting so more suited for wave riding. Nowadays the choice is mostly between 3 or 5 strut kites. Most newbies wouldn't notice the difference between 3 and 5 strut kites. 5 struts are awesome in high winds because they remain very stable and offer great performance in big boosts and hang-time.
Another advantage of less struts is better flying performance in low winds, which doesn't mean the kite is more powerful if it has less struts, it just means it will be much more reluctant to stalling due to it's lighter weight. New strut-less kites fly really well in low wind but will deform really easily when crossing the power zone and can be a b*tch fo relaunch.
Its also important to check where the struts are, I have an Ocean Rodeo Rise with 6 struts, but no middle strut, so the kite has a tendency to fold if it's not pumped up until it's almost bursting.. Even though it has loads of struts!
Select to expand quoteJesk said...
Its also important to check where the struts are, I have an Ocean Rodeo Rise with 6 struts, but no middle strut, so the kite has a tendency to fold if it's not pumped up until it's almost bursting.. Even though it has loads of struts!
How old is it?
My gen 1 OR Flite 17.5 has 4 struts and doesn't fold in the middle or the tips, and doesn't need to be over-pumped. Placement of struts is important as is design of bridle etc etc...
I've ridden the Fly too and was quite impressed with it, although the gen 1 we have was harder work to get upwind with -- a lot of leg work. But the canopy was good...
Number of struts is something to consider... as your test riding :D
If you take a kite with a strut in the middle and one with out a strut in the middle, is one really easier to fold in half then the other? I've never tried this, so I don't know, but I can't see how it would make any deference. Isn't that the same thing that happens when a kite collapses under too much tension? So I'm wondering how a strut prevents this.
Select to expand quoteeabmoto said...
If you take a kite with a strut in the middle and one with out a strut in the middle, is one really easier to fold in half then the other? I've never tried this, so I don't know, but I can't see how it would make any deference. Isn't that the same thing that happens when a kite collapses under too much tension? So I'm wondering how a strut prevents this.
On the assumption you've deflated it first (!!!), it makes no difference. Arguably, if you have a centre strut, you've a half way point to roll the kite to so you know you're in the middle.
But really, I would not let that be a factor. Choose a kite based on the flying performance and the type of riding you (will) do, not it's configuration.
I think he means when it's flying...
You can bend even a really pumped up hard kite on the beach by just putting just a little weight on it so I doubt it matters - get the loads in the wrong directions and boing! I've seen center-struted kites collapse in the middle too...
My question is, how do struts support the leading edge? The way I see it is the bridle spreads the load evenly across the LE and that helps prevent it from collapsing under load. I don't see how the struts support the LE at all. I understand they support the canopy and help prevent luffing.
^^^ I'm thinking the struts just add to the overall rigidity of the kite in all three dimensions?
I think struts more support the canopy and give shape... and provide a bit of structure to the LE across the chord. Without fancy CAD to cut panels that give themselves a 3D profile when stitched, I think the "old" method was to add more struts.
Note all the "I think"s up there? I'm note sure at all, digging through have remembered conversations years ago. Bill Hansen from Switch posts technical articles -- he'd be the man to ask, cos he actually replies to messages too :D
Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
How old is it?
My gen 1 OR Flite 17.5 has 4 struts and doesn't fold in the middle or the tips, and doesn't need to be over-pumped. Placement of struts is important as is design of bridle etc etc...
It's a 2012, but the design hasn't really changed since the 2010s.. It has the turned back wingtips, which I think adds to the issue of rigidity.. But I would agree with you, that the issue of strut placement is less important than other factors in the design!Select to expand quoteeabmoto said...
If you take a kite with a strut in the middle and one with out a strut in the middle, is one really easier to fold in half then the other? I've never tried this, so I don't know, but I can't see how it would make any deference. Isn't that the same thing that happens when a kite collapses under too much tension? So I'm wondering how a strut prevents this.
If you have struts that sit further towards the wingtips, you have a different weight distribution than if there is a middle strut.. The struts add shape and rigidity to the leading edge and give extra support to the canopy. If you have more weight towards the wingtips (ie. no centre strut) then the kite is more likely to bend when it hits the water/light wind conditions, as there is more wight pulling the top half onto the water..
Yes, this doesn't really matter too much to experienced riders but it does make a difference to learners, when the kite hits the water or in gusty conditions when the kite is flexing and moving in the changing conditions.
Definitely pros & cons for all nos. of struts. Depends entirely on the kite.
One thing for sure is that folding in the centre has nothing to do with centre strut or no centre strut.
Kites can just as easily fold around a centre strut or in the centre where there is no strut.
From all the feedback Ive had in the shop - from ALL brands of customers kites - there isnt one I know of thats likely to do this as a design fault.
Thats regardless of centre strut or otherwise.
IMO folding = careless pumping.
I guess if you are designing a LW kite - where minimum struts is an essential part of design - there is a danger you could cut corners to where folding becomes an issue???
But shouldnt R&D solve that before we ever get to see it happen? Isnt that what R&D is all about?
Puppetonastring, that all makes sense to me. I'm always confused when people say that struts support the leading edge. Unless there's something else, besides collapsing, that needs to be prevented, I don't see how the struts offer any support. I guess I'm defending strutless kites. It's often said that they will collapse easily with out the "support" of struts.I know that the brand I use has no issues with collapsing. I do understand why someone would want struts, but support of the leading edge, in my opinion, shouldn't be one of them.
The new LF Solo kite with a single strut seems to be an interesting compromise issuu.com:443/liquidforcekb/docs/2015_solo_issue
What is the compromise that you're looking for? I don't have any problems with my kites, and they don't have any struts.
Hi, I have been flying a 10m strut less kite for a few weeks in 10 to 28 knots, and having designed kites from 8 to 4 to 3 to 0 struts here is what I have found
Folding has nothing to do with struts, that comes down to bridle supporting the leading edge and balance of the positioning of the bridle
Struts add weight and drag, a 8 strut kite will feel heavy and truckish, a 3 strutt kite less so, a 0 strut kite is super light and fast.
Struts help with relaunch BUT a 0 strut kite does relaunch very well once the wind gets under the canopy, a strutted kite will launch faster if it falls in the wind window
Struts reduce flutter when depowering the kite while the kite is zooming through the wind window and keep the canopy up when leading edge is face down relaunching
0 struts is lighter and will not fall as easy
A 0 strut kite has a good wind range, the bottom end is good and the top end it great also, 88kg 5.3 surfboard and I am doing better than lighter people people on 12m kites, 13-14 to 25 knots. In Gusty 14 to 28 knots the 10m strut less was solid, it flapped when depowering the bar in wind ranges beyond what the kite was made for ( 24+ knots ). So the shape and solidness of the kite in gusts has nothing to do with struts.
less struts are better, but it comes down more to kite design re folding and performance
Select to expand quoteeabmoto said..
Puppetonastring, that all makes sense to me. I'm always confused when people say that struts support the leading edge. Unless there's something else, besides collapsing, that needs to be prevented, I don't see how the struts offer any support. I guess I'm defending strutless kites. It's often said that they will collapse easily with out the "support" of struts.I know that the brand I use has no issues with collapsing. I do understand why someone would want struts, but support of the leading edge, in my opinion, shouldn't be one of them.
Leading edge seems to be doing OK by itself.
I have the cloud kites, from Board Riding Maui. I've had no problems with relaunch in any conditions, or the leading edge collapsing. I think they're awesome kites. The flutter comes from letting the bar out too far. I had to get use to how little I needed to sheet out to de power the kite. My last kites had 5 struts, if I pulled the trim strap all the way and sheeted out all the way, it would flutter also. The clouds de power completely,to the point of fluttering, with very little bar throw. It's one of the benefits of the design, when combined with a long travel cabability on your bar, just letting your bar go dumps all power from the kite.
More strut less testing and feedback
I wanted to see how the kite handled boosts and kite loops. Boosts are high and floaty, short vid below shot by some one with a phone, kite looping the kite was silent, fast turns are silent also, relaunch is easy once the kite gets more down into the wind window, the only time the kite is flapping is when the bar is pushed out and the winds is too strong for the wind range which would happen with strutted kites also, for example 10m in 28 knots bar pushed out.
From dealing with the factory, the price is actually a fair amount cheaper to make, for a 3 strut kite for example
6 less nipples and holes ( nipples/valves cost alot )
3 less tubes clips and neoprene
3 less bladders
3 less dacron struts and sewing and folding strut ends with velcro etc
works out about a 1/5 cheaper to make which is a fair amount when that converts into full retail
The 12m strut less will be here in a week, I am hoping the 12m has the power of a 13.5 and turns like a 10.9 which could be possible, and weighs like a 9m, and inflates like a 8m. It has a normal leading edge size.
When designing a strut less, its a lot more complex than just taking a current design and taking the struts off, you have to get the trailing edge tension perfect, the bridle perfect and the profile perfect, to much and it distorts, to little and you have no power. There is no maths or calculation you can use to make all the elements that make a kite, it all comes down to experience, feel and tweaking.
The 3 stripes are Dacron not struts in the vid because I wanted to try something, I did not think much of strut less kites before, but I can now see the advantages of them, a 17m will be next on the list, I don't see why you would want a 7m strut less, as strong gusty 30 to 40 knots I am not sure how well a strut less would go, but for 10m and larger as a one kite quiver for traveling it has great potential.
I watched a 5m BRM Cloud in 35-45, it had no problems at all. Didn't flutter, ever, which has a lot to do with the person flying the kite. It didn't want to fold under tension. My smallest is a 7, which I've had in winds gusting to 35, I've had no problems with it.
