Looking at what a lot of Mini builders are doing lately and having their mast step way forward I thought I would try it too
Here is my effort Tried it out today in strongish wind with a 4.5 m sail and results seemed good so far
75 MM tube squashed oval to give adjustable rake and welded in place over steering tube
Am now using centre sheeting Boom proved to be too weak and bent so I will need to stiffen that up
If I was building from scratch I probably would do it differently but this was an easy thing to do and seems to be worthwhile
Cheers Hiko
wow hiko thats the tidiest front ive yet seen
well impressed
love the fallshaw inserts fitted to a ,presumably lighter ,cheaper plastic front wheel
on a few occasions ive come across placcy wheels that fit the fallshaw inserts and make great front wheels, they just arent quite strong enough for the rear longterm
Good spotting Landy! The front wheel is an el cheapo 75x8 wheel with Fallshaw inserts as you said
I have been using these for awhile now since my Bmx wheels died
The loaded weight iwith this setup is 22.5 kg on the front and 52kg on each rear with me aboard 97 kg
Apart from the boom which I suspected would be too light all went well for a first trial
Shifting a mast that much on a water yacht would make a huge difference but on this not so much at all
One thing I did think was the yacht did not seem to lift a wheel so readily maybe just my imagination
and can't think of a reason for that
cheers Hiko
Select to expand quoteHiko said...
Good spotting Landy! The front wheel is an el cheapo 75x8 wheel with Fallshaw inserts as you said
I have been using these for awhile now since my Bmx wheels died
The loaded weight iwith this setup is 22.5 kg on the front and 52kg on each rear with me aboard 97 kg
Apart from the boom which I suspected would be too light all went well for a first trial
Shifting a mast that much on a water yacht would make a huge difference but on this not so much at all
One thing I did think was the yacht did not seem to lift a wheel so readily maybe just my imagination
and can't think of a reason for that
cheers Hiko
Perhaps with the added length of the spine it allows more twist and storing that energy rather than that energy lifting a wheel
You could be right TP I never thought of that The extra leverage may be working the ski axles more as well perhaps
cant be a bad thing
I need to do more sailing
Me too. I havn't been able to sail at all this year ! A combination of too much rain at in oportune times and recovering from 2 Carpal Tunnel Release operations
Another sailing session today No handling issues Putting the mast step right forward is good thing to do for us
largish guys I think
I had my biggest sail on today and the mast rake adjusted right forward and the handling was fine
Very nice way to solve the steering issue Hiko.
I had been stalled fitting the mast step to my new chassis I have been knocking up over the last few weeks. (While the wife was in Cocus Island.
)
The steering setup I had drawn up with a very opened out, y on top of the steering shaft to clear a forward mast was getting complicated.
(Read that as lots of scribblings.)
Your setup solved that problem instantly. Thanks for sharing.
I'll now get back to finishing the chassis. Thanks for the inspiration.
Chook
And here was me thinking that while ya wife was away ya jets would come out to play
Had a blast today in good strong wind on a local stadium carpark which is made up of long concrete strips with tarmac cross strips and gave the new mast setup a good test Good speeds and scary corners to take Shifting the mast right forward over the steering tube has no downsides at all that I could tell
Yacht actually feels more stable to me Lots of rubber gone from rear on those corners Started taking the corners wide on to the grass to save them a bit
cheers
Hiko
Hi Hiko, if the rear tyres are taking a scrubbing then wouldn't it be a good idea to make the front wheel do a little more work on turns by shifting the seat forward too? Don't overdo it or the front will break away first...(not good). Love your tidy front steering arrangement enough to attack my yacht and re-build it.
What rake angle do you reckon your mast settled at when as upright as you could go? I built my first yacht to the wheel base dimensions of the Blowy but will now increase the spine length to fit the 5.6 rule, then reposition my seat forward to reach the steering. That will better equalise wheel load sharing so the front wheel works more. I successfully loaded a yacht this way years ago and still think the same front/rear load sharing applies as it does to load balancing a car or motorcycle. The issue of where the centre of effort of the sail lies is more of a "suck-n-see" issue as it is "Ghost" without a definite spot...wok
Hi Wok
I don't know that the scrubbing was excessive Trying to take sharp corners on Tarmac at speed I think some rubber
is going to be lost I felt no need to rake the mast back from where you see it in the photo which is as far forward as it will go without moving the heel of the mast back That will cause it to rise a little as the mast is sitting directly on the steering tube. My thoughts at the moment are that maybe the mast tube could be stood a little more upright and the rear wheels moved back a little to take advantage of the 5.6 m rule but wouldn't that make the rear break away more?
The steering felt good and positive as it is There were times in the past when I was sliding forward in the seat to get
good steering with the old setup A friend injured his leg in a fence due to that and smashed the steering and front wheel too
I will give you the mast angle later I am away at the moment
cheers
Hiko
What I was suggesting was that if the rear breaks away or looses grip in a tight turn then that indicates that the C of Gravity is too far to the rear as one possible cause.
If the sail centre of pressure of the sail is too far rearward, then that is a second reason for the rear to slide away - That is indicated by wind gusts causing the rear to break away. Chook has described how he looks for indications of that by the wheel track skid marks on the sand. You can alter C of Pressure by changing rake angle. Keep in mind that there is no exact fixed C of Pressure for a sail, it changes due to many reasons when in action and that is why I said it is a matter of "suck n see".....(experiment).
If the spine is increased to place the rear wheels further rearward relative to the seat then that will move the CG further forward. But, caution here....if CG or centre of pressure goes too far forward it will cause the front wheel to loose grip before the rear in a turn or gust and you will loose steering control and follow your mate through the fence....W
Hi The mast angle as shown in the photo and where I have been sailing it is 10 degrees from the vertical
I need to sail it on sand before I go altering anything else I think So far all looks good
Hiko
Keep in mind there is lots of load shifting on the wheels... For example if we pick some random numbers of 40% on each rear wheel / tyre and 20% on the front, it could be load / weight / force or traction etc. sail on 3 wheels and it's balanced..... Then lift a wheel is it now 80% on the rear and 20% on the front?
Often the rear breaking traction is more about the surface than yacht balance.....
My theoretical 2 cents worth. Moving the mast step forward, ie further away from the back axle, would increase the torque effect of of the side loads on the mast, result would be a greater tendency to lift a rear wheel and that's when traction, inertia and surface take over.
Yes moving a mast forward makes for a 'tippy' yacht.
The FreeFlight Manta yachts were very tippy with the mast close behind the front wheel, Class5 yachts with a similar back axle width and a mast further back was a LOT more stable.
Moving the mast forward changes the 'roll' angle.
Maybe I am dreaming but by moving the mast forward my yacht SEEMS more stable
track and wheelbase and CoG are still the same or very close in the case of the CoG
Gizmo you mentioned the free flight manta and a class 5 having the same track width
but are the wheelbases the same?
Maybe other factors are coming in to play here or as I said maybe I am just imagining the yacht to be more stable
cheers
Hiko
The back axle might have been 100-150mm less width for the manta but the class 5 was a good 500mm longer overall.
The class5 was taller than manta.
The Manta seemed like a 'big little yacht' where as the class5 handled like a 'little big yacht'.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Events-Competitions/Beach-Blast/
Did a bit more work to the mast step on "Chicken Salt", thanks to Hiko today.
I actually got the internal adjuster made and installed inside the mast step as well.
I couldn't use "just a bolt" pushing onto a carbon mast, so it has a swivelling curved pad on the 1/2" threaded rod, for the front internal mast rake adjuster. (Didn't get a photo before it got too cold and dark, in the workshop tonight.)
From 0 degrees to 11 degrees of mast rake is possible.
The chassis is 75mm longer than a standard Lake Lefroy mini and the "Hiko Step" is 440mm further forward from the rear axle than an original LLM.
Should be interesting to see how it goes.
Got the step tack welded to the chassis and the seat brackets tacked on, ready to be fully welded up tomorrow.
Chook
Select to expand quoteChook2 said..
Did a bit more work to the mast step on "Chicken Salt", thanks to Hiko today.
I actually got the internal adjuster made and installed inside the mast step as well.
I couldn't use "just a bolt" pushing onto a carbon mast, so it has a swivelling curved pad on the 1/2" threaded rod, for the front internal mast rake adjuster. (Didn't get a photo before it got too cold and dark, in the workshop tonight.)
From 0 degrees to 11 degrees of mast rake is possible.
The chassis is 75mm longer than a standard Lake Lefroy mini and the "Hiko Step" is 440mm further forward from the rear axle than an original LLM.
Should be interesting to see how it goes.
Got the step tack welded to the chassis and the seat brackets tacked on, ready to be fully welded up tomorrow.
Chook
(Didn't get a photo before it got too cold and dark, in the workshop tonight.
Thats funny I am sure I see a heater in the background of the bottom picture and I am positive you have 'lectric lights installed in your "man cave". Not turning back into a s..t c..k again are we
Wayne A.K.A. TP1
gotta tell ya tp1 twasbitterly cold in esperence on sat night.
I had my swag INSIDE the landcruiser, Ice on the widscreen in the mornig
Chook the way you have done that mast step will be great I think
zero to eleven degrees adjustable right on the money
I will be interested in your thoughts on the trial
regards
Hiko
Select to expand quoteGizmo said..
Yes moving a mast forward makes for a 'tippy' yacht.
The FreeFlight Manta yachts were very tippy with the mast close behind the front wheel, Class5 yachts with a similar back axle width and a mast further back was a LOT more stable.
Moving the mast forward changes the 'roll' angle.
But I'm not sure this would be the case Gizmo with our minis.
Wouldn't shifting the mast forward require more effort to lift a rear wheel, as the mast is closer to the pivot/roll axis.
Thanks Hiko.
Should be interesting and will certainly prove things one way or the other. It's not easy to go much more forward with the mast so we can now work between these parameters to trim it out. That's the fun of these little craft!!!
It will be a while before I get to run it, as there is a lot of things that are now required in the abode according to the wife.
Our beaches have been hammered in the storms we had last week so will struggle to get a sail in.
I have never seen so much seaweed on what is left of the beach areas.
Just fitting the seat, then to true up the rear axles and of course paint everything.
Cheers.
I finally remembered to get a photo of the mast rake adjuster Wayne. (TP1).
It was a nice day for painting so got the last of her coated.
I'm not good at this paint bit, so the "racing orange peel effect" reigns supreme!!!
A side shot of the "Hiko Mast step". I must trim those front seat mounting bolts off, down to the nyloc nut.
I have been doing a time lapse of the build with the Go Pro, which I am still trying to learn how to use. So when I sort out the editing I'll try and put it up. Don't hold your breath guys.
Cheers Hiko, thanks for allowing me to steal your idea.
Chook.
Looks a terrific job, done by a master builder. You aren't a Chook, you are a Rooster.
Looks great chook I am interested in the way you did your mast adjuster Is the palm for the want of a better term
fixed or loose on the adjuster bolt ? I think I will do something similar
cheers Hiko
I didn't get a photo of it before it was fitted into the step.
The curved "palm" is 50mm x 5mm flat bar. I curved it while it was still 500mm long, to get the leverage round a bit of heavy pipe as a mandrel, to the size of the mast, all while it was in the vice.
I tapered the edges of the palm to fit the internal curve of mast step. as you can see.
The palm has a 6.5mm hole drilled through it and then it's countersunk from the mast side with a 9.5mm drill to half it's thickness.
I then machined the 1/2" threaded rod (that's what I had on hand) in the lathe, down to 6mm diameter, for a length of 6mm along the thread.
I fitted the "palm" over it, which is a loose fit and gently peened the edges of the 6mm stub with a small ball peened engineers hammer, till it was well retained but still had full movement. I then just dusted a fraction off the "domed 6mm stub" that was left to flatten it with the grinder, so it easily cleared the mast and would not damage it.
To fit it into the step I kept trimming (lots of times) the threaded rod till I could just get it to start threading into the welded on nut from the inside of the step.
This was all before the step was welded to the chassis/ steering head.
I gave the thread and pivot on the palm a good coating of "neverseize" before fitting it.
I covered the exposed threads with insulation tape while I painted it to keep paint off the threads.
It will be trimmed for length to get clearance for the tyre if needed.
This photo shows the mast step tacked onto the chassis/steering head below, hence the light coming through from underneath.
It's a single still, taken from the video off the GoPro and cropped, so sorry bout the quality.
Hope this helps you.
