Select to expand quotesamsturdy said..
Thanks MB. I'm in the most unlikely territory here (for me) but it's very interesting hearing how
experienced guys handle situations, albeit theoretical. And I have to marvel at those that have
actually been there and done that.
To be honest I have only streamed my drogue in calm conditions under motor to see how it worked. I am yet to have a steering failure (difficult to achieve on a tiller steered S&S34) nor been caught in such a blow to need it to slow the boat down.
I have heaved to in anger quite a few times. When the wind gets seriously over 30 kts I prefer to heave to and get everybody below decks out of harms way.
Last year Cisco, Havefun and I had over 30 kts coming back to Pittwater but only for an hour or two as the front came through so kept sailing.
In 2014 we had over 40kts all night (12 hours) so Havefun and I hit the rack.
In 2009 we had a horrible time with wind (25-30 kts) against current (3 kts) and had to heave to for 6 or so hours.
Another use for a drogue is crossing a bar like Wide Bay. If there is a risk of surfing the drogue will slow you enough to prevent you broaching. Of course if there are big breaking waves the drogue might just get you into trouble.
Sage words MB. Skeg hung tiller steered rudders do not have much to go wrong with them. Sturdily built you can trust your life with them.
I cant recall any loss of a yacht that I have read about that wasn't caused by either rudder failure (most being spade rudders snapped or ripped right out), or navigation errors.
There is a sobering video, of a couple sailing (in the Sth Pacific I think, from Galapagos??), that the spade rudder hit something or wasn't up to the job....the whole tube became loose & ripped a whole in the bottom of the hull. They guy was calm enough to film it by sticking his head & camera through an access panel in a rear cabin to where the rudder quadrant was flapping around in the back of the boat letting in heaps of water, just been looking for the video on YT but cant find it.
Oh I can think of only 1, a westsail snapped a timber boomkin?? in the Pacific, causing loss of rig & rescue.
I really dislike viewing these pics and vids.
Glad u cant find it
Steering failure for me is lack of control.
U shut the motor down...throw the anchor out and fix it or wait for help.
I see from the posts b4 steering failure is in many of these documented case's. ...involves holing the boat as well.
I struggle with one problem at a time.
God help us if I lose steering and have a big hole at the same time.
My emergency plan in that event would be too scream repeatedly at everyone not to panic
So begs the question. ...if you hole...and luckily enuff see it.
What is the best emergency first aid to plug it.
Having removed a buoyant spade several times in calm water, the first method I would use would be to dive under the boat with an anchor rode; slide part of the anchor rode between the hull and the top of the blade; secure the rode around the rudder; and then drop the anchor. You'd lose the anchor of course, but the whole shebang will exit the hull in my experience.
Trying to push a rudder down from the top of the tube could be a problem because you are unlikely to have anything suitable onboard. The last thing you want is for the top of the rudder stock to be near the bottom of the tube while it is being thrown sideways by water pressure and the rudder's buoyancy.
I'm not sure how drogues etc work. The old idea of using your prepared U-bolts to bolt a bunkboard to the spinnaker pole and using it as a steering oar doesn't work except in a millpond. However, when we lost a spade years ago (*&^%$# sunfish!) we ended up with the spinnaker pole running up the backstay. The tiller was then removed and lashed to the kite pole.
The emergency rudder was therefore acting close to the vertical plane, with an effectively fully-balanced rudder (ie the bunkboard). Steering then became remarkably effective, although a storm jib was used to balance the boat while we motored back to Eden.
Personally I'm just going to rely on the outboard, but I may experiment with being able to fit a bunkboard to it in case the engine won't start.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..Jode5 said..ChopesBro said..
I hate those pictures. ..far out...my very worse nightmare 
How do u go from steering failure to taking on water and sinking ?
If ive got a steering issue...the anchor goes out and the bilge switched on till I fix it
Remember plug the hole first and if that can't be done, prepare to abandon ship and get out a Mayday before you lose you electrics.
Good story.
One thing that I wonder about is why so many boats have all their batteries down low. So often one hears about boats losing radio communication when the batteries, mounted in the bilge, go under. A lightweight motorcycle battery weighs a couple of kg, can be mounted high with the same effect on stability as a few beers in the same place, and could keep the radio going for a significantly longer time than seems to be the norm in a sinking.
I strongly agree. At a minimum, keep the radio that powers your radio up high.
Cats are fortunate in this regard as there's room to locate all batteries on the bridge deck, not down in the hulls.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..samsturdy said..
Thanks MB. I'm in the most unlikely territory here (for me) but it's very interesting hearing how
experienced guys handle situations, albeit theoretical. And I have to marvel at those that have
actually been there and done that.
To be honest I have only streamed my drogue in calm conditions under motor to see how it worked. I am yet to have a steering failure (difficult to achieve on a tiller steered S&S34) nor been caught in such a blow to need it to slow the boat down.
I have heaved to in anger quite a few times. When the wind gets seriously over 30 kts I prefer to heave to and get everybody below decks out of harms way.
Last year Cisco, Havefun and I had over 30 kts coming back to Pittwater but only for an hour or two as the front came through so kept sailing.
In 2014 we had over 40kts all night (12 hours) so Havefun and I hit the rack.
In 2009 we had a horrible time with wind (25-30 kts) against current (3 kts) and had to heave to for 6 or so hours.
Another use for a drogue is crossing a bar like Wide Bay. If there is a risk of surfing the drogue will slow you enough to prevent you broaching. Of course if there are big breaking waves the drogue might just get you into trouble.
You make it all sound like so much fun MB. lol. However getting back to design. My rudder stock tube
is contained within a watertight lazerette....that means it's separated from the rest of the boat by a watertight bulkhead.
So as long as hull damage was confined to the area around the tube, the boat will not flood. So is THAT aspect
a normal design feature.???.
Different vessel, but how's this for an example of bad design?
www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/oceanis-485-steering-failure-160096.html
The control head for the autopilot was directly behind the wheel. The autopilot goes bonkers and there's no easy way to turn it off!
Select to expand quotesamsturdy said..
MorningBird said..
samsturdy said..
Thanks MB. I'm in the most unlikely territory here (for me) but it's very interesting hearing how
experienced guys handle situations, albeit theoretical. And I have to marvel at those that have
actually been there and done that.
To be honest I have only streamed my drogue in calm conditions under motor to see how it worked. I am yet to have a steering failure (difficult to achieve on a tiller steered S&S34) nor been caught in such a blow to need it to slow the boat down.
I have heaved to in anger quite a few times. When the wind gets seriously over 30 kts I prefer to heave to and get everybody below decks out of harms way.
Last year Cisco, Havefun and I had over 30 kts coming back to Pittwater but only for an hour or two as the front came through so kept sailing.
In 2014 we had over 40kts all night (12 hours) so Havefun and I hit the rack.
In 2009 we had a horrible time with wind (25-30 kts) against current (3 kts) and had to heave to for 6 or so hours.
Another use for a drogue is crossing a bar like Wide Bay. If there is a risk of surfing the drogue will slow you enough to prevent you broaching. Of course if there are big breaking waves the drogue might just get you into trouble.
You make it all sound like so much fun MB. lol. However getting back to design. My rudder stock tube
is contained within a watertight lazerette....that means it's separated from the rest of the boat by a watertight bulkhead.
So as long as hull damage was confined to the area around the tube, the boat will not flood. So is THAT aspect
a normal design feature.???.
Aaaaaahh... that is perfect Sam, if your lazerette is watertight, you my good man have the best of both worlds! If the tube fractures, or the hull around the tube, you only flood the lazerette. Perfect!
Make sure you don't have any diy jobs from the previous owner that has breached the bulkhead integrity (for cables, inspection hatches etc). I am unsure if that is normal for your boat, but it is certainly not the norm for a LOT of boats, even brand new.
Cheers,
SB
Found that video I was thinking of, Sorry ChopesBro 
, was in the Atlantic, .
Water in the cabin:
Ok, thanks Shaggy. The Santana 28 was designed by Shad Turner, and I don't know how modern
fin keel/spade rudder boats were back in the 70/80s but it seems he went beyond the looks/functionality
aspect of this boat and thought about the vulnerability of the rudder and what could happen if it collided
with a sunfish or some other heavy marine species. Consequently, placing the whole rudder mechanism
into a watertight compartment was incorporated in the design...Well done. I wonder how many lives have
been saved because of this.
You obviously have 'second vision' Shags. yes there have been a couple of cable holes drilled through.
Mind you, nothing that can't be sealed with a bit of silastic. So I've got to be happy.
Wow! Interesting video Blue Moon. Looks like the top end of the rudder stock was held in place by a shelf thinly glassed to a ply bulkhead? Could that be right? The whole shelf tore away allowing the rudder to swing like a pendulum trashing the bottom bearing and hull. I wonder how the emergency tiller worked?
Our boat has the rudder stock connect to a bracket and bearing fixed to the deck, the topside of which is where the emergency tiller slots into.
we don't have full watertight bulkhead, but glassed in ply that is several feet above waterline.
id be interested to see other configs.
FreeRadical, that's a nice setup!
And this is a really interesting thread :)
I'm the same as you. Only difference is the wheel interface, mine runs a Vectran line to pushrods (from middle) to a mounting on the rudder shaft, just below the upper deck bearing. The autohelm (left in pic) goes to a separate mount on the rudder shaft.
Emergency tiller is straight into the head of either rudder post.
I'll try and get some pictures of my setup next time I'm down at the boat.
How many of these boats going to Davey Jones Locker are Bennies? A lot it seems.
I recall a French coroner reporting on a Bennie, maybe 20 years ago, that was sold as a bluewater cruising boat and capsized with multiple fatalities. From memory he said that the boat wasn't safe to go outside the harbour. Angle of vanishing stability 105-110 degrees I recall.
Is it a coincidence I see Bennies sinking often, or are they really crap as ocean going boats? They are great cocktail boats.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..
How many of these boats going to Davey Jones Locker are Bennies? A lot it seems.
I recall a French coroner reporting on a Bennie, maybe 20 years ago, that was sold as a bluewater cruising boat and capsized with multiple fatalities. From memory he said that the boat wasn't safe to go outside the harbour. Angle of vanishing stability 105-110 degrees I recall.
Is it a coincidence I see Bennies sinking often, or are they really crap as ocean going boats? They are great cocktail boats.
There is the case of a Bennie that was in charter work in the UK that did two or three charters before they realised the keel had fallen off. I do not have the link to it but it is on the forum somewhere.
In the video the Dutch guy is explaining how the frame is strong, but the tube is only held to the frame by glue. He also points out that the ply is not strong when the load is a delaminating load. The obvious design improvement would be to bolt saddles over the tube, and have the bolts go through the frame, so the bolts and washers place the ply in compression.
Also looks like the bond between the frame and the hull? was also inadequate.
All in all, a pretty shocking design for such a critical element.
Was reading an article in Yachting World about a Swedish design, where the rudder was designed to fail below the lower mounting, so that it does not rip the back of the boat off. Left them with a rudder stub, and no damage to the boat. They rigged a jury steering system and sailed the boat more than a thousand miles to port.
Select to expand quoteJode5 said..ChopesBro said..
I hate those pictures. ..far out...my very worse nightmare
How do u go from steering failure to taking on water and sinking ?
If ive got a steering issue...the anchor goes out and the bilge switched on till I fix it
I would hate to say your theory would not work. Some years ago I had the misfortune to be on an Adams 13 shoal draft with a centre board that struck a rock. The centre board drove back into the boat and opened up a crack about 12" long and tapered from a point to about 2" wide which you would not consider a large hole. Within 30 seconds we had 6" of water in the boat. ( no pump is going to handle that and how quick can you put the anchor down) The first thing we did is grabbed a bunk cushion and jamed it in the hole. We had to motor 1 hour back to the marina while just keeping the water at bay with the bulge pump. The next problem we had was with the centre board stuck in the down position our draft was to deep to enter the harbour where a crain (no travel lift) was waiting to lift us out. The Coast Guard met us out side the harbour with a large petrol driven pump which which we used to pump the boat dry. Our big problem was now to get the centre board up and the only way was to get a hydraulic jack in and jack the board back into place. This ment the packing had to be removed from the hole so as we could get the jack in. With every thing planed to a tee the packing was removed, jack inserted and the board jacked back into place. The whole process was done in about 3 min. By the time we had the packing back in the hole we had 3 feet of water in the boat and that was with the petrol pump running.
From experience the first thing you must do is locate and plug the hole. Once you have about a foot of water in the boat it can be hard to find where the water is coming in , especially if you have floor boards. Rudders are a bigger problem as the bearings are generally in a location which is hard to get to and is probably the last place you want to get stuck in when the boat is sinking. In the boat that is sinking in this thread the rudder shaft is more than likely in the void under the cockpit which is more than likely accessed via a small hatch in the rear quarter berth (as it is in my boat). In the photo of the boat there is no obvious damage to the rudder bearing area, so if this is where the hole is, it is certainly not large.
Boats with great big holes that takes hours to sink only happens in the movies. If you ever have the misfortune if holing a boat, you will be shocked by how quick the water come in as I certainly was.
Remember plug the hole first and if that can't be done, prepare to abandon ship and get out a Mayday before you lose you electrics. The chance of keeping up with a pump is next to impossible, just open a 1" sea cock an see how much water comes in.
Very interesting reading, real experience of problems is hugely valuable. And good suggestions Jode5 about locate and plug the hole. One time I accidentally broke a sea cock and the water flooded in really fast so I always thought about what would happen if the boat hit something and was holed where I didn't know.
What you said about the floorboards struck home and I have wondered what to do about that. To date I decided to screw down all my floorboards tight making a little mostly water proof bubble under each so if the hull was holed the water ingress would hopefully be limited. But sometimes I wondered if it would be better to keep them all loose so if we hit something it would be possible to quickly throw them all up and take a look to see whats happening and plug it.
What does anyone else think?
I would leave them loose so you can get at the damage. A floorboard isn't going to stop the flood for long.
I had a 1/2" sea cock fail on me on my Duncanson. We were back on the mooring and had a trickle coming in that wouldn't stop. I checked a cock and it came off in my hand. The water jetted out of the hole to a height of about 2ft. I put a bung in straight away but the flood was coming in fast enough that it would have filled the little 26 ft boat in maybe 10 minutes.
I want to find the leak ASAP and reduce the inflow to a manageable level.
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/beneteau-oceanis-50-for-tender-on-behalf-of-qbe-insurance-australia/169827
Is this the yacht ? It sold quickly for that price.
Select to expand quoteTrek said..Jode5 said..ChopesBro said..
I hate those pictures. ..far out...my very worse nightmare
How do u go from steering failure to taking on water and sinking ?
If ive got a steering issue...the anchor goes out and the bilge switched on till I fix it
I would hate to say your theory would not work. Some years ago I had the misfortune to be on an Adams 13 shoal draft with a centre board that struck a rock. The centre board drove back into the boat and opened up a crack about 12" long and tapered from a point to about 2" wide which you would not consider a large hole. Within 30 seconds we had 6" of water in the boat. ( no pump is going to handle that and how quick can you put the anchor down) The first thing we did is grabbed a bunk cushion and jamed it in the hole. We had to motor 1 hour back to the marina while just keeping the water at bay with the bulge pump. The next problem we had was with the centre board stuck in the down position our draft was to deep to enter the harbour where a crain (no travel lift) was waiting to lift us out. The Coast Guard met us out side the harbour with a large petrol driven pump which which we used to pump the boat dry. Our big problem was now to get the centre board up and the only way was to get a hydraulic jack in and jack the board back into place. This ment the packing had to be removed from the hole so as we could get the jack in. With every thing planed to a tee the packing was removed, jack inserted and the board jacked back into place. The whole process was done in about 3 min. By the time we had the packing back in the hole we had 3 feet of water in the boat and that was with the petrol pump running.
From experience the first thing you must do is locate and plug the hole. Once you have about a foot of water in the boat it can be hard to find where the water is coming in , especially if you have floor boards. Rudders are a bigger problem as the bearings are generally in a location which is hard to get to and is probably the last place you want to get stuck in when the boat is sinking. In the boat that is sinking in this thread the rudder shaft is more than likely in the void under the cockpit which is more than likely accessed via a small hatch in the rear quarter berth (as it is in my boat). In the photo of the boat there is no obvious damage to the rudder bearing area, so if this is where the hole is, it is certainly not large.
Boats with great big holes that takes hours to sink only happens in the movies. If you ever have the misfortune if holing a boat, you will be shocked by how quick the water come in as I certainly was.
Remember plug the hole first and if that can't be done, prepare to abandon ship and get out a Mayday before you lose you electrics. The chance of keeping up with a pump is next to impossible, just open a 1" sea cock an see how much water comes in.
Very interesting reading, real experience of problems is hugely valuable. And good suggestions Jode5 about locate and plug the hole. One time I accidentally broke a sea cock and the water flooded in really fast so I always thought about what would happen if the boat hit something and was holed where I didn't know.
What you said about the floorboards struck home and I have wondered what to do about that. To date I decided to screw down all my floorboards tight making a little mostly water proof bubble under each so if the hull was holed the water ingress would hopefully be limited. But sometimes I wondered if it would be better to keep them all loose so if we hit something it would be possible to quickly throw them all up and take a look to see whats happening and plug it.
What does anyone else think?
Been thinking a bit the same. Our boat has good access to keel bolts, seacocks etc with easy lift up panels. The rest of the sole was once screwed down but currently isn't. If you leave it all loose, you run the risk of panels dislodging a bit and then causing a trip hazard and possible serious injury. Our boat has an internal liner like many modern production boats, so even a hole from hitting something may not be that easy to locate and there are a stack of places under heads, tanks etc that you could never get to in a timely manner anyway.
Hit a turtle at speed in a cat once, it fractured the skeg supporting??? the rudder, bent a 1 1/2 inch solid rudder shaft and the tip of the rudder slashed a hole through the floor of the rudder flat. Fortunately there was a partial bulkhead that isolated the rudder but even so quite a lot of water found its way forward. And with the steering jammed it was fortunate that it was a cat with two motors so there was a way to steer. A boat weighing 5 or 6 tons has a lot of momentum at even modest speeds, so if you hit something with a rudder or centreboard you will be very fortunate to escape serious damage, usually in a place that is hard to get.
We were in another cat that hit an old beacon pipe that was underwater, it ran along the hull until it popped a skin fitting out. The influx of water was dramatic. A cushion with a big foot against it stopped most of it, enough to let the portable bilge pump cope, then a bit of bunk board slathered with Selleys Blockade was held in place by a tom cut from a length of timber that is usually used when moored against a pile. The jury rig held reliably until I lifted out 2 weeks later. But with a serious hole in the boat you don't get much time to act.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..samsturdy said..
Thanks MB. I'm in the most unlikely territory here (for me) but it's very interesting hearing how
experienced guys handle situations, albeit theoretical. And I have to marvel at those that have
actually been there and done that.
To be honest I have only streamed my drogue in calm conditions under motor to see how it worked. I am yet to have a steering failure (difficult to achieve on a tiller steered S&S34) nor been caught in such a blow to need it to slow the boat down.
I have heaved to in anger quite a few times. When the wind gets seriously over 30 kts I prefer to heave to and get everybody below decks out of harms way.
Last year Cisco, Havefun and I had over 30 kts coming back to Pittwater but only for an hour or two as the front came through so kept sailing.
In 2014 we had over 40kts all night (12 hours) so Havefun and I hit the rack.
In 2009 we had a horrible time with wind (25-30 kts) against current (3 kts) and had to heave to for 6 or so hours.
Another use for a drogue is crossing a bar like Wide Bay. If there is a risk of surfing the drogue will slow you enough to prevent you broaching. Of course if there are big breaking waves the drogue might just get you into trouble.
A drogue on Wide Bar??? And what do you do when you get to the second leg? If there is surf on the outer leg, the second leg would be unworkable. I just did the bar in 30 knot winds, outer leg no break, inner leg boat rolling 40 degrees in breaking water. You would have to pay me huge money have a drogue out.
A piece of three ply or even laminex with a large bead around the edge of T Rex, which bonds under water and a few small monel ring nails could save the boat and a few lives in a situation like this...... time and all other factors going your way of course! As well as carrying some tapered wooden bungs sized to fit hull through fittings.
soudal.com.au/trexsmx/
Select to expand quotePhoenixStar said..MorningBird said..samsturdy said..
Thanks MB. I'm in the most unlikely territory here (for me) but it's very interesting hearing how
experienced guys handle situations, albeit theoretical. And I have to marvel at those that have
actually been there and done that.
To be honest I have only streamed my drogue in calm conditions under motor to see how it worked. I am yet to have a steering failure (difficult to achieve on a tiller steered S&S34) nor been caught in such a blow to need it to slow the boat down.
I have heaved to in anger quite a few times. When the wind gets seriously over 30 kts I prefer to heave to and get everybody below decks out of harms way.
Last year Cisco, Havefun and I had over 30 kts coming back to Pittwater but only for an hour or two as the front came through so kept sailing.
In 2014 we had over 40kts all night (12 hours) so Havefun and I hit the rack.
In 2009 we had a horrible time with wind (25-30 kts) against current (3 kts) and had to heave to for 6 or so hours.
Another use for a drogue is crossing a bar like Wide Bay. If there is a risk of surfing the drogue will slow you enough to prevent you broaching. Of course if there are big breaking waves the drogue might just get you into trouble.
A drogue on Wide Bar??? And what do you do when you get to the second leg? If there is surf on the outer leg, the second leg would be unworkable. I just did the bar in 30 knot winds, outer leg no break, inner leg boat rolling 40 degrees in breaking water. You would have to pay me huge money have a drogue out.
Any reason you were attempting to cross the bar in 30 kts and breaking waves?
I'm not saying that a drogue allows you to enter any bar when the conditions are clearly unsuitable, but the drogue adds a degree of safety factor if a rogue wave tries to carry you in. If you start surfing coming into any bar you are in big trouble. A drogue will keep you straight and control your speed.
Stream the drogue maybe 50-80 metres astern. Come in under power and, with my boat anyway, you move at about 3 knots. The drogue keeps you pointing down sea and the speed under surfing speed.
No breaking waves on the first - visible - leg and I wouldn't take it on if there was a break. The bar is now about half a mile further north and much better than the old entrance. The break was on the second leg which you can't see from seaward. The waves were not high, just rough, which begs the question, should you not cross in rough conditions at the top of the tide. I am sure that if I had crossed a couple of hours earlier the sand bank to the east would have blocked the swell more effectively and given me a smoother ride. I came out of the bay a fortnight earlier so had a very good idea where the new tracks are.
I've no problem with a drogue on the first leg with the seas astern, just can't get my head around the use it on the second leg. Saw a boat - Exocet - get caught crossing out one time, he only had a 9 horse Yanmar, couldn't cope and he surfed in quite a way backwards. Glad his crew had a sense of humour. The same sea caught Pineapple Pol and buried her almost to the mast, inflated her life raft which was then tethered along side. Much drama.
Select to expand quotePhoenixStar said..
No breaking waves on the first - visible - leg and I wouldn't take it on if there was a break. The bar is now about half a mile further north and much better than the old entrance. The break was on the second leg which you can't see from seaward. The waves were not high, just rough, which begs the question, should you not cross in rough conditions at the top of the tide. I am sure that if I had crossed a couple of hours earlier the sand bank to the east would have blocked the swell more effectively and given me a smoother ride. I came out of the bay a fortnight earlier so had a very good idea where the new tracks are.
I've no problem with a drogue on the first leg with the seas astern, just can't get my head around the use it on the second leg. Saw a boat - Exocet - get caught crossing out one time, he only had a 9 horse Yanmar, couldn't cope and he surfed in quite a way backwards. Glad his crew had a sense of humour. The same sea caught Pineapple Pol and buried her almost to the mast, inflated her life raft which was then tethered along side. Much drama.
I understand your sentiments. Having been across it a few times it isn't predictable. About 8 or so years ago a cat was lost on Wide Bay when unintentionally surfing in which affected my views.
As you have power on with the drogue deployed it keeps the stern pointing at the waves coming up behind. The power of the drag of the drogue (that is a mouth full) needs to be felt to be believed. It keeps the stern pointing astern in all but maybe a large breaking wave.
On Wide Bay, with the sand bar along the south edge, in my opinion it isn't the cross swell that will get you but the wave coming up behind. The swells tend to swing around the sand bar to run down the inshore leg anyway. Broaching is the danger on that bar and the drogue will go a long way to preventing it happening. That is my view anyway, I hope I don't have to prove it.
