Can I use a lighter motor for racing?

I had a couple of wins in the CYCA Winter Series last year and want my boat 'Sea Ya' (a Swarbrick S80) to be as competitive as possible this season.
I am looking for opinions on whether I should replace my 6 HP Toshiba (26 Kilos) with the Toshiba 3 and a half (13 Kilos).
I am considering doing this as I will lighten my boat by 13 Kilos (pros).
What are the cons?

Good day Two Dogs
If I buy the 3 and a half HP for the tender I can then try it on the 26 foot.

Changing the boat mid series could be against the rules, be careful of that.

I raced a Blazer 23 and Space Sailor 24 and won various season championships. Using a lighter motor does give your boat that touch more acceleration as you would expect, but the loss of mass reduces the boats ability to coast in lulls and push through chop. In light small boats the designers of the boat might also have allowed for that weight and moving it might not be guaranteed successful.

We didn't change motor size but instead moved it around. Pre race we always took it off the stern and put it below in the centre of the boat. Sometimes we moved the motor (and Esky) to the windward side of the boat during the race to get the benefit of the weight. The Space Sailor I had dragged its stern with the outboards weight on the back but when the motor was down below it didnt. 0.2 knots probably. Worthwhile over a long race.

If you are that serious make sure everyone on board stands going downwind wearing wind jackets and crouches upwind. And in drifters light a cigarette. Many times we slowly drifted past the others on the strength of the ciggy smoke showing wind direction, then when the wind picks up again suddenly you have a boat length head start

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Chris 249 said..
Trek, with respect shifting the engine and esky to windward is illegal.

If you're only talking arbitrary racing then under most systems you should declare the change in the boat and the handicapper may change the handicap, so you're back to square one and may have issues motoring home in a big breeze.

You'd have to be sailing incredibly well for 13kg to be relevant; I know in J/24s which are of similar speed in one nationals the heaviest boat was 3rd and the third heaviest was first, which shows how little it matters. Some handicappers reckon the average boat is sailing about 5% slower than its potential even in steady winds. Dragging an inboard prop is rated about 2% slower and under many systems, not carrying a kite is about 4% slower. So differentials caused by tiny tweaks in performance are vastly less important than just sailing better - roll tacking perfectly, hitting every shift, etc. If you're good enough to worry about 13kg you must have spent many, many hours training in all aspects of sailing. If not, don't worry.

A fast stock S 80 should be going minutes faster than the J/24 you race against (which was second last in the 2016 state titles) and starting on the same time, or very close to, the Peterson 30 Fiction which seems to be kicking ass in your division according to its handicap and elapsed times.

If the boat was being changed you are right but putting the motor below was not changing the boat it was same in each race. I mentioned careful of that at beginning of my post.

I dont think it can be compared to roll tacking. Roll tacking imparts to energy to the boat. Moving ballast doesnt and is no different to Wild Oats moving its keel and many others pumping water.

I agree the difference 14kg might make is minimal but boat speed comes from getting 0.1kt from 20 things usually and winning means dont ignore anything, although one bad judgement can waste the better boat speed.

So Bundeena boy you are on the money thinking about it.

Shifting weight like engines and esky to windward is clearly illegal and can cop sailors a 10 year ban from the sport. The rule is RRS 51, which states;

"All movable ballast, including sails that are not set, shall be properly stowed. Water, dead weight or ballast shall not be moved for the purpose of changing trim or stability."

Sails are considered to be "movable ballast" or "dead weight" for the purposes of RRS51, so are motors and eskys. For example, as the Sydney-Hobart protest committee says (see http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/media/2617079/notice-to-competitors-1.pdf) "The movement of sails for the purpose of altering trim or stability is clearly an attempt to increase a boat's performance without a corresponding increase in rating. Any movement of sails, within the boat, or stacked on deck are in breach of RRS 51." The same source says that "Any movement of sails, within the boat, or stacked on deck are in breach of RRS 51."*

Engines and eskies fall into the same category as sails - you can't move them to alter trim or stability. Taking an outboard off the stern and putting it in the same place every time isn't considered a breach because it's not really "altering" stability if you put it in the same place every time. Moving the outboard from side to side as you tack is a different thing.

The reason the canters and water ballasted boats can do it is because they have a special exemption clause written into the SIs and NoR of the events they do. For example;

Middle Harbour Regatta; "1.2.2 Boats shall request permission from the Race Committee to use movable and/or variable ballast for the purpose of increasing stability. Any such request must be accompanied by full details of the system involved, and any such system will be taken into account in establishing the boats handicap. "

IRC Rule 27.3.1; "A boat may request permission from the Rating Authority to use movable and/or variable ballast for the purpose of increasing stability. The Rating Authority will generally only grant permission to boats specifically and originally designed to carry movable and/or variable ballast and may deny permission without giving any reason.

In the early days of yacht racing they used to have movable ballast. They banned it because everyone hated spending their weekends dragging bags of lead shot or gravel from side to side every tack. We'd all hate it if we had to drag the outboard to windward every tack.

Yes, winning is made up of many little things but spending more time getting the big things right is more important than trying to save 13kg on a 2000kg boat.


* Later modified by specific instructions in the Hobart.

Sailing is a self policing sport.. Do whatever you like until someone gets the ****s enough to protest... bending or breaking the rules within reason is the name of the game and strategy..

I recon you have the heavier motor and move it around below decks all you want and keep it it all out of sight and no one will know and therefore will not really be able to protest... and if they do say they were going below checking a phone or something like that that gives reasonable doubt.

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Trek said..
Oh oh "sails shall be properly stowed" that means 99% of boats are illegally using ballast. Using phone would be a no no, someone would say you were getting external assistance!
But movable ballast is acceptable, given permission from race commitee. A technicality as proven in regattas world wide.

No. Sails are allowed to be stowed where you want as long as they are not moved around to change trim or stability while racing. Don't insult the rest of us by claiming we are cheats.

It's not "a technicality" to get permission. Getting permission allows the RC to refuse permission or to change your handicap if they allow you to shift ballast. If you didn't get permission you were breaking an important rule.

I've only ever put in one protest in my life, only been protested twice and never been DSQ'd so I'm no sea lawyer. Yes, I'm big on us all following the rules and not cheating. What's wrong with that?

EDIT - There's clearly confusion here. I have NEVER said that moving an outboard off the stern pre-race is cheating. However, as I have clearly said several times, moving an outboard to windward during a race is different and it IS illegal unless specifically allowed by an alteration in the rules.

Rule 51 is in Part 4 of the RRS. Part 4 rules "apply only to boats racing." * A boat is only racing after the preparatory signal. There is therefore nothing stopping anyone from moving their outboard off the stern or putting sails on the cabin floor in the usual way; ie before the P flag goes up**. However once the P flag is hoisted, a boat is by definition racing and therefore you can't shift sails or the engine to affect trim or stability.The rules against shifting things like outboards or tool kits is there for a very good reason - because sailing would be a lot less fun if some of the crew had to stay down below, dragging heavy gear from side to side and smashing up the boat as they did it.

PS - No, using a mobile phone is not outside assistance unless it is done to obtain an advantage and break the rules. See the famous protest against Loyal in the 2011 Hobart for Cocko's chat to the ABC helicopter for an example.

* There's an exception for R 55, which is irrelevant.
** Obviously class, safety or rating rules still apply, which is irrelevant in most mixed fleet yacht club racing.

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Chris 249 said..

patto1987 said..
Sailing is a self policing sport.. Do whatever you like until someone gets the ****s enough to protest... bending or breaking the rules within reason is the name of the game and strategy..

I recon you have the heavier motor and move it around below decks all you want and keep it it all out of sight and no one will know and therefore will not really be able to protest... and if they do say they were going below checking a phone or something like that that gives reasonable doubt.

Saved for posterity.

Self policing doesn't work if the honest people have to sail against cheats. And what do you get when you cheat - a plastic trophy. You value your integrity so little that you'd cheat for a little trophy?

What else do you do when racing? Miss a mark? Turn the motor on if no one can see it on a long race?

Do you guys have the same attitude when you're selling your stuff on this forum? Is it OK to lie in ads?

Everyone breaks the rules one way or another.. so everyone cheats at some point..

The last protest I was involved in, I was quite clearly in the wrong and didn't give way or do a penalty turn etc. The guy who protested however had no clue about how to protest properly and I won the protest arguing it wasn't valid and the committee agreed..

Was it fair that I didn't get penalized for not giving that guy the right way.. (Probably not in all fairness).. but their is rules about how to lodge a protest and he didn't follow them so why should I penalized when he didn't follow those rules? Would he value his integrity so low that his happy to win a protest by breaking the rules to get a little plastic trophy? Did i value mine so low i was happy to (not) win some trophy on a technicality.. clearly yes lol..

Patto you must be taking the piss, surely you can't be that stupid

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Trek said..


The motor argument is dumb anyway.

It's only dumb if you'd like it if the only way to win in heavy airs was to cart 250kg of gear to windward each tack, like they used to. Most of us don't want to go back to the old style of having special lockers to throw weights into, and having to pay your crew because no one will spend the afternoon sweating and bouncing down below while dragging heavy weights from side to side.

By the way, as noted earlier I've only ever put in one protest in my life so I don't "pull the rules". However, if no one pointed out that shifting the motor to windward while racing was illegal then someone reading this forum could have done it and received a 3 to 10 year suspension.

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Chris 249 said..

Trek said..


The motor argument is dumb anyway.

It's only dumb if you'd like it if the only way to win in heavy airs was to cart 250kg of gear to windward each tack, like they used to. Most of us don't want to go back to the old style of having special lockers to throw weights into, and having to pay your crew because no one will spend the afternoon sweating and bouncing down below while dragging heavy weights from side to side?

By the way, as noted earlier I've only ever put in one protest in my life so I don't "pull the rules". However, if no one pointed out that shifting the motor to windward while racing was illegal then someone reading this forum could have done it and received a 3 to 10 year suspension.

Good point> However, if no one pointed out that shifting the motor to windward while racing was illegal then someone reading this forum could have done it and received a 3 to 10 year suspension.

Interesting (off) topic discussion. RRS 2017-2020 are the base level of rules for every race. Each one design class may have its own set of rules. Every regatta will have their own set of rules (Sailing Instructions) that may make a change to those base and one-design rules, where allowed.
The RRS allow you to have a 150kg trimmer any time you like, unless your class rules (such as Tasars) that say you have to sail the whole event with that person. But the RRS rules also say that you can't move any ballast item (non crew) from one side to the other and you cant use electric winches, autopilots, etc unless the SI's say so (such Sydney Hobart).

I sailed in Canberra recently and after the bottom mark a faster boat managed to get an inside overlap on me. As he got next to me, he called out 'Mast Abeam'. We all laughed. He then sheepishly said, is that rule not around now?

Playing any game is a matter of knowing the rules and using them to your advantage. A few people are ignorant, or stuck in a time warp or don't care about the rules. But at the pointy end, the good guys know the rules very well (perhaps Wild Oats in the last S2H is an exception). There are even clubs who sail by ColRegs for those who don't want to know. But if you win a protest because the other guy does not know how to protest, then you have won fairly. He needs to learn how to protest.

But I don't believe that anyone should go out with the attitude of winning at all costs. Otherwise you have joined the ranks of a politician.

Yipes,

do you racing types ever wonder why the sailing, but not racing, people have absolutely no interest in yacht racing?

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LMY said..
Yipes,

do you racing types ever wonder why the sailing, but not racing, people have absolutely no interest in yacht racing?

For one, I know plenty of non-racers who are interested in racing.

Secondly, this thread is nothing like as angry as some of the ones I've seen amongst cruisers, or amongst touring cyclists, or amongst non-racing wooden boat owners or non-racing windsurfers.

Thirdly, letting one thread decide one's attitude towards tens of thousands of other people isn't very logical.