Second hand yachts - market conditions, surveyor in Brisbane.

We are just back from the Whitsundays, which always induces "shall we buy a boat-itis" in my husband, it seems very serious this time. We are trying to understand the current used yacht market metrics. From what we can tell boats are taking a while to sell (unsurprising given cost of living issues), but we have tracked a couple back to 2018/2019 and they are being listed at around 20-25% more than the 2019 prices. Yes, they have had a bunch of stuff replaced, but in one case the then brand-new engine now has >500 hrs on it. Is this pricing wishful thinking on behalf of the owner/dealers (boat in 2019 was 9 years old, now 15 year old )or have prices of second hand yachts really gone up in the last few years (I know for example Hanse have pushed through a 30-40% price increase on their new boats over the last couple of years, which has yet to drag them out of financial strife).
How much haggling goes into second-hand yacht purchase deals - any tips on strategy - do you negotiate before survey, or wait for the survey (the boat we are looking at had a decent insurance survey last year and looks above average for its age, with all new through hull fixtures, no osmosis).
I'm also looking for a surveyor in Brisbane - any recommendations?
Thanks

My small study so far is in the 35-45 ft bracket. Shame yachts aren't like houses and there's no way of finding out what they actually got sold for.....

At least with Chartering you can walk away at the end,and next time, come back and choose something else ?
With Jules on being well versed in what you want,and be ready to grab the right boat,when appears. It is a very discerning market,which devours quality very quickly,but leaves landfill to sink !

For the past 5+ years, the number of 30-35ft yachts for sale on Yacht Hub has varied between 190 and 220. Currently there are 207 for sale. I think the market is pretty average, with fewer Covid and cost of living fluctuations than we might expect.

I have only used one surveyor for a boat I was buying in 2019. I thought he was good value for money. Barry Colson 0417 606 352.

I've been watching the used boat market like a hawk for the last four years. As Jules has said, you really need to watch the market and look at lots of boats over a long period to get a sense of what's going on. Some boats are more desirable than others and it really helps if you distill what it is you really want. There is so much diversity in yachts in size and type, so figure out what's important and then start looking closely at the pictures of the boat, much can be learned from analysing the photo's and reading the blurb etc. Look for what the blurb doesn't say as much as what it does say.

The big ticket items are rigging, engine, sails and electronics (notwithstanding structural problems). I personally love the "NEW Engine in 2013" etc , New standing rigging in 2014

Look at the cost of replacing these items and deduct them from the asking price. There are so many boats around and the good ones do go pretty quickly and are fairly obvious as to their quality. Thing is, we are in a market where low balling an offer for a boat that has been on the market for a couple of months will cost you nothing, they can only say no or offer a counter offer.

Try and remain objective and know that any boat you buy is going to need work on top of the stuff you can see. Another interest rate rise next month could see some prices fall. Another thing which seems apparent is a lot of boats are unrealistically priced when they enter the market and then a couple of weeks later drop by 10% to as much as 20% straight up.

Best of luck, it's a tough market.

Barry Colson is an excellent designer and builder so would be a top shelf surveyor.

Hopefully not going off topic but after buying and selling 13 yachts in the 20-30ft range since the early 80s (and 1/2 life refurbishing most of these) I would hope and trust that buyers would act in a "2 way street" with sellers. In my experience not all buyers do and of course not all sellers do either. For example (based on some of those 13 sales) please (after I row you out and back in from shore based 7ft dinghy) don't;

1 board a 22ft very solidly built all single thick laminate grp yacht and attempt to kick the foredeck in to see if it is solid, then offer to buy just the outboard not the whole lot

2 Come as a partnership of buyers on separate days and leave with different stories - the last one "no stick it" - that is come together for the one visit

3 tell me I am talking fertiliser when I say the boat has no osmosis via "no I have a mate who says all yachts have osmosis"

4 many other...............

You can add more I am sure...............

Thanks lots of good advice, which is much appreciated, and definitely get the point about needing to be respectful to the buyer and the boat. Thanks for the tip on Barry Colson - one of the boats we have looked at had an insurance condition report done by him, which was pretty thorough. I think Serge Testa is retired. Not sure if his yacht is currently on display at the Qld Museum, but it was always on our to do list when we lurked at the museum with young fkids as it is just so small for what he achieved. A couple more Qs, as we try and get ourselves organised in case a boat does come along - any suggestions of engine surveyors who can organise oil testing? Also, any suggestions on Qld based marine lawyers who do yacht sale contract review (Pacific Maritime used to but they look to have focused the super yacht market). We have seen a few template contracts from brokers, which look fairly standard (all BIA members and BIA do offer standard contracts), so not sure whether there is value in using a legal review. We would definitely use a lawyer if private sale, for a cruising yacht (we bought and sold our trailer sailer without even considering a lawyer but much smaller transaction size..)
thanks

The BIA contract is simple and understandable for both parties. In my experience a lawyer will be guaranteed to complicate things and cost serious $ so unless you have a spare $400 to $600 per hr free it'll be uneconomical. Concentrate more on a good survey so you know what you're getting into. I just had an insurance survey done on mine for $320 and gives a potential buyer a good idea what to except and then if they wish a comprehensive survey can be carried out.

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ActionSportsWA said..
I've been watching the used boat market like a hawk for the last four years. As Jules has said, you really need to watch the market and look at lots of boats over a long period to get a sense of what's going on. Some boats are more desirable than others and it really helps if you distill what it is you really want. There is so much diversity in yachts in size and type, so figure out what's important and then start looking closely at the pictures of the boat, much can be learned from analysing the photo's and reading the blurb etc. Look for what the blurb doesn't say as much as what it does say.

The big ticket items are rigging, engine, sails and electronics (notwithstanding structural problems). I personally love the "NEW Engine in 2013" etc , New standing rigging in 2014

Look at the cost of replacing these items and deduct them from the asking price. There are so many boats around and the good ones do go pretty quickly and are fairly obvious as to their quality. Thing is, we are in a market where low balling an offer for a boat that has been on the market for a couple of months will cost you nothing, they can only say no or offer a counter offer.

Try and remain objective and know that any boat you buy is going to need work on top of the stuff you can see. Another interest rate rise next month could see some prices fall. Another thing which seems apparent is a lot of boats are unrealistically priced when they enter the market and then a couple of weeks later drop by 10% to as much as 20% straight up.

Best of luck, it's a tough market.

I too am in the market for my first yacht and this is where I am a little in the dark about.....knowing the worth of a certain model or vessel to therefore know how much I can negotiate or deduct the costs of required maintenance from the asking price. Much like cars I guess.... prices are generally known eg: a datsun vs ford falcon vs bmw. It does take time and I have been watching the market for a few years also and slowly learning.

Without that knowledge of yacht worth....surely one couldn't just deduct big ticket item costs eg rigging replacement & motor....which would approximately cost 20-25k for a 38ft yacht. Or does one just bite the bullet and low ball offer them based on this argument?

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Without that knowledge of yacht worth....surely one couldn't just deduct big ticket item costs eg rigging replacement & motor....which would approximately cost 20-25k for a 38ft yacht. Or does one just bite the bullet and low ball offer them based on this argument?

Here's an example. I went and looked at a 38?r, the asking price was $80K. The owner had moved interstate and the boat had been left sitting in a pen for some time. From watching these particular 38's for a while, I thought one in reasonable condition would be worth around $80K

The boat looked like it needed some love (obviously), but I was told the engine wouldn't start. There was an outboard bracket fitted to the transom (Red Flag 1.) I was told the owner had bought two cheap Chinese starter motors recently. I rang around local services and found the mechanic who had worked on the boat. The engine was actually seized and was only fit for mooring anchor. Quoted $20K for new motor + fitting. My thoughts on value dropped to $60K.

Standing rigging had to be replaced, that was another $10K, so in order to get a fair condition $80K 38, I was now looking at a $50K offer.

The anchor chain had practically become one solid prism of corrosion. $$$ The electronics were completely outdated and needed to be upgraded, realistically another $10K for VHF, Plotter and AIS and Auto Pilot. Offer now to $40K

This was to say nothing about the interior, topsides and hull needing cleaning of the marine forest on the hull, and condition of sails. The broker said the seller would have a conniption at $60K, So I walked away. Broker came back a month later and asked for $55K.. No.

At the end of the day, the price needs to fit into your own value to cost ratio. Even at $40K, it still needed lots of work requiring time and money. It stayed on the market for another couple months and eventually sold I believe for around $45K.

Everyone's cost to value ratio will be a little different. You just need to know a starting point of what a decent buy for the boat you want is assuming it can be sailed away with everything working to a safe condition, what it costs you to get that boat into that condition, should be deducted from the asking price.

Talk to brokers, look at lots of boats to get a feel for what they look like in real life as opposed to pics online. Look at other boats that are similar to your dream boat to see what they offer in comparison. Talk to riggers about ballpark pricing as rig complexity massively effects cost, sailmakers too. Do your homework, use a broker and get a survey.

Best of Luck