Foil spinout?

I had an interesting experience last session where I felt the foil was side slipping. Felt similar to a wind surfing spinout but much slower. It was happening fairly frequently.

Only thing I can think of was that I was riding a shorter mast than normal (71cm instead of 90cm) so perhaps wing/stabilizer was too close to the surface and in turbulent water.

Anyone else experienced this?

Or you were breaching the foil.

When you windfoil with a big front wing, the wing can keep flying even when the mast spins out at low speed. I do this all the time. Kinda funny actually.

This happens when I try to pinch upwind the old formula way. Doesn't work. To go upwind, you have to rail the foil to windward and let the tilted front wing do all the work.

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LeeD said..
Or you were breaching the foil.

wasnt breaching the front foil, but maybe stabilizer was aerating?

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Heliboy999 said..
I tend to get it just after pumping onto the foil. Normally happens because I have my back hand too far back down the boom and load the foil sideways. If i can catch it in time i sheet out and try to get the sail open and bear off slightly. Spin out goes away and the sail accelerates. Don't get it when I am powered up. Guess its just because you are trying to get everything you can from what little wind there is.

Yeah it was a low wind session.

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Paducah said..

Heliboy999 said..
I tend to get it just after pumping onto the foil. Normally happens because I have my back hand too far back down the boom and load the foil sideways. If i can catch it in time i sheet out and try to get the sail open and bear off slightly. Spin out goes away and the sail accelerates. Don't get it when I am powered up. Guess its just because you are trying to get everything you can from what little wind there is.

Maybe you are too upwind when you pump up? In low wind situations, I go way off (like a 45 degree turn) the wind until the board accelerates and then swing to a beam reach. You shouldn't be pushing much at all on the mast when pumping but rather the board and bouncing the wing. Having your hand down the boom is usually a good thing as most people have it to far up and as they pump, they round up into the wind.

So back hand further towards the clew for pumping?

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thedoor said..

Paducah said..

Heliboy999 said..
I tend to get it just after pumping onto the foil. Normally happens because I have my back hand too far back down the boom and load the foil sideways. If i can catch it in time i sheet out and try to get the sail open and bear off slightly. Spin out goes away and the sail accelerates. Don't get it when I am powered up. Guess its just because you are trying to get everything you can from what little wind there is.

Maybe you are too upwind when you pump up? In low wind situations, I go way off (like a 45 degree turn) the wind until the board accelerates and then swing to a beam reach. You shouldn't be pushing much at all on the mast when pumping but rather the board and bouncing the wing. Having your hand down the boom is usually a good thing as most people have it to far up and as they pump, they round up into the wind.

So back hand further towards the clew for pumping?

If you find yourself turning upwind as you pump. Since we generally aren't as powered as splashy boards, a lot of us have our harness lines further forward. Placing your hands evenly there may be too far forward when pulling hard during pumps.

If you aren't having this problem, I'm not aware of a reason to put them further out the boom.

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CAN17 said..
^^^
seems to work for me.
Unless I am way overpowered...like the other day when I went from nicely powered up on a 7.5 in ~8kts. Then wind cranks up to 15 kts and I'm sheeting out all the way and probably look like I'm riding a machine bull or doing some bad pole dancing and proving every stereo type ture for windsurfers. Its crazy how much lift big wings can generate (Infinity 76). I think I need to invest in a 3m sail. Too bad they make the clue cutout on kids sails so low

What happens if you literally stand on the front foot? Does the board go back down on the water?

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Paducah said..

thedoor said..

Paducah said..

Heliboy999 said..
I tend to get it just after pumping onto the foil. Normally happens because I have my back hand too far back down the boom and load the foil sideways. If i can catch it in time i sheet out and try to get the sail open and bear off slightly. Spin out goes away and the sail accelerates. Don't get it when I am powered up. Guess its just because you are trying to get everything you can from what little wind there is.

Maybe you are too upwind when you pump up? In low wind situations, I go way off (like a 45 degree turn) the wind until the board accelerates and then swing to a beam reach. You shouldn't be pushing much at all on the mast when pumping but rather the board and bouncing the wing. Having your hand down the boom is usually a good thing as most people have it to far up and as they pump, they round up into the wind.

So back hand further towards the clew for pumping?

If you find yourself turning upwind as you pump. Since we generally aren't as powered as splashy boards, a lot of us have our harness lines further forward. Placing your hands evenly there may be too far forward when pulling hard during pumps.

If you aren't having this problem, I'm not aware of a reason to put them further out the boom.

CAN17 said..
^^^
seems to work for me.
Unless I am way overpowered...like the other day when I went from nicely powered up on a 7.5 in ~8kts. Then wind cranks up to 15 kts and I'm sheeting out all the way and probably look like I'm riding a machine bull or doing some bad pole dancing and proving every stereo type ture for windsurfers. Its crazy how much lift big wings can generate (Infinity 76). I think I need to invest in a 3m sail. Too bad they make the clue cutout on kids sails so low

What happens if you literally stand on the front foot? Does the board go back down on the water?

Yes the board usually would go down but in this case with strong wind, 65kgs sailor and too big a sail I had to put all my weight on my front foot just to keep the foil from breaching. At one point in a strong gust I tryed putting my feet forward of the foot straps(kinda like schloging position) and I was foiling for a bit that way but it felt weird and uncomfortable....I like using the straps. A smaller sail would help a lot. I think in stronger winds 15 kts + I should be on a 4m or smaller. Isn't a big part of foiling the fact you use smaller sails relative to windsurfing in the same conditions.
I would use my 7.5 in 6/7 and get up in gusts and would go through every lull it's amazing I haven't even tryed foiling with my 9.9, ever since I stoped formula sailing it's just collecting dust and might not ever get used. Smaller sails seem possible again with foiling.

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IndecentExposur said..
In swells/waves, I can feel the lateral slippage when there is less mast in the water. On the top of the wave I don't feel it.

Or maybe you're still drunk from parting the night before.

This might have been it as I was using an 8 inch shorter mast and likely was riding with the foil closer to the water than normal. Have not felt it since, as I have not needed to use the shorter mast.

I wish I was partying that much...

had once the rear stab push out when going hard to wind resulting in a wipeout.

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WhiteofHeart said..

CAN17 said..

Paducah said..

thedoor said..

Paducah said..

Heliboy999 said..
I tend to get it just after pumping onto the foil. Normally happens because I have my back hand too far back down the boom and load the foil sideways. If i can catch it in time i sheet out and try to get the sail open and bear off slightly. Spin out goes away and the sail accelerates. Don't get it when I am powered up. Guess its just because you are trying to get everything you can from what little wind there is.

Maybe you are too upwind when you pump up? In low wind situations, I go way off (like a 45 degree turn) the wind until the board accelerates and then swing to a beam reach. You shouldn't be pushing much at all on the mast when pumping but rather the board and bouncing the wing. Having your hand down the boom is usually a good thing as most people have it to far up and as they pump, they round up into the wind.

So back hand further towards the clew for pumping?

If you find yourself turning upwind as you pump. Since we generally aren't as powered as splashy boards, a lot of us have our harness lines further forward. Placing your hands evenly there may be too far forward when pulling hard during pumps.

If you aren't having this problem, I'm not aware of a reason to put them further out the boom.

CAN17 said..
^^^
seems to work for me.
Unless I am way overpowered...like the other day when I went from nicely powered up on a 7.5 in ~8kts. Then wind cranks up to 15 kts and I'm sheeting out all the way and probably look like I'm riding a machine bull or doing some bad pole dancing and proving every stereo type ture for windsurfers. Its crazy how much lift big wings can generate (Infinity 76). I think I need to invest in a 3m sail. Too bad they make the clue cutout on kids sails so low

What happens if you literally stand on the front foot? Does the board go back down on the water?

Yes the board usually would go down but in this case with strong wind, 65kgs sailor and too big a sail I had to put all my weight on my front foot just to keep the foil from breaching. At one point in a strong gust I tryed putting my feet forward of the foot straps(kinda like schloging position) and I was foiling for a bit that way but it felt weird and uncomfortable....I like using the straps. A smaller sail would help a lot. I think in stronger winds 15 kts + I should be on a 4m or smaller. Isn't a big part of foiling the fact you use smaller sails relative to windsurfing in the same conditions.
I would use my 7.5 in 6/7 and get up in gusts and would go through every lull it's amazing I haven't even tryed foiling with my 9.9, ever since I stoped formula sailing it's just collecting dust and might not ever get used. Smaller sails seem possible again with foiling.

My sails have been at the importer for 2 monts now, but haven't had the need to pick them up, did all my sessions with 4.6 hahahaha. That being said, I have a 3.0 S2Maui which is made for real adults, so it is possible. From experience, with a wing half the size of your infinity 76 and 20kg's more I can do 3.6 (!) in 15-16 kts of wind. So the jump 7.0 / 3.0 should be very doable. My quiver is planned 10.0(foil-race)/4.9/3.8/3.0(wave), but i think I could get the same range with 9.0/3.8 perhaps even 9.0/3.0 or 10.0/3.8, although I've never tried jumping that gap. 8.6 twincam to 3.6 wave was doable.

I think a big reason your able to do a 3.6 at 20 kgs more and half the wing size is because you have had much more experience and therefore are much more skilled. I imagine my self getting rid of the 9.9 eventually as my board does not recommend anything bigger than 8.6 for rec.
So i think my ideal quiver would be 7.5/4 and maybe something a bit smaller then 4m that fits on the same mast and boom, that should cover me from about 7 kts to 18 kts(but won't know until I try. I would hate to have a separate mast and boom for each three sails(9.9/7.5/4). Hope to get a smaller rig soon to help open up the gybing game. And a smaller wing might be a good idea too.

Thanks for your input WOH.

I just had an overpowered session in 3 ft chop on my i84 with a 5.6 yesterday. The session was short, but I nevertheless was amazed that I did not have a single spinout. I used the 90 cm mast. With a 71 cm mast that I often use in similar conditions, there would have been plenty of crashes and close calls. Going over the chop that was pretty steep at times, there definitely were times where the foil was close to the surface.

So spinouts seem to be much more of an issue with shorter masts. Not sure why longer masts help avoid this issue. It does not seem to be (just) how much mast is in the water. Other things that could also play a role are plain old geometry (the sideway component of the force is lower if the mast is longer) and maybe even the longer mast bending more to absorb some of the sideway pressure, a bit like a soft formula fin.

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ZYX said..
After 20+ text comments it may be the time to look at the relevant material facts.
Perhaps, others will add more text. But I see no spinouts on this foiling video even when the mast comes completely out of water.

ZYX when you return the $ 360. Deceived the buyer and is now happy that he sold the spoiled hydrofoil to another buyer

Never spun out with 70 mast, but breach from suddenly overpowered gusts almost 3 times each session.
Tough when foiling along in 12-15 and a 23 mph gusts decides to sneak up.

Wonder if Naish rudder helps, like wingtip canards.