Not many foilers around here on Eyre Peninsula, South Australia, to seek advice from.
Wondering if anyone can offer any advice on fine tuning setup. I've been foiling for just over a month. I can get up on foil for 200-300 m but feel I really have to shift weight right back on board (and right over board) and push front hand forward on boom and pull rig right back and hold it close to me (almost like I would going into a tack). This all means I can't stay in harness lines - which I realise isn't crucial with foiling but it would be nice to take some of the load of the arms. I've shortened up harness lines - and wondering if I need to shift footstraps back (front one currently right forward and inward and back one in middle and inward). Mast position is just behind middle of track. Check out the video of my setup and technique in the link below. Any advice or ideas would be welcomed. Thanks in advance.
The mast base looks very close to the front straps. This is a screen shot from my second foiling session where I had the base a fraction behind the middle and I can still see the track (I realise you have a different board so might be smaller than mine). The difference in distance between our front strap and mast base is quite large. I am no expert but this is definitely something I noticed in your video.
I would also say that your harness lines are too far back down the boom. In light winds you need to move them forward which will bring you more upright and more balanced. Your mast base does look a long way back too. Maybe try moving it forward and inch and see. Harness lines and mast base are easy adjustments on the water.
at 23 mins 47 seconds I sort of try to explain harness position and effects of light winds over sails. May
help.
Select to expand quoteHeliboy999 said..
I would also say that your harness lines are too far back down the boom. In light winds you need to move them forward which will bring you more upright and more balanced. Your mast base does look a long way back too. Maybe try moving it forward and inch and see. Harness lines and mast base are easy adjustments on the water.
at 23 mins 47 seconds I sort of try to explain harness position and effects of light winds over sails. May
help.
reposted since the quote box got pooched
imho, his harness lines are okay. The issue with having them the way they are in your video is that the salil is now "back-handy". More pressure on the sail means more pressure on the back hand. If you sheet in firmly or stay sheeted in in a gust, there's more pressure on the back hand which translates to more pressure on the back foot. Especially for someone starting out, that means as they try to control the power of a gust, they'll be adding back foot pressure at exactly the wrong time - the board will be wanting to rise.
The instinct for the beginning foiler is to use their normal windsurfing technique, especially the more experienced windsurfer. A lot of us tend to use the gusts to accelerate, not sheet out.
sl55 post today in this thread quotes WhiteofHeart's advice on this as well: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Slingshot-fuselange-position?page=-2?src=rss#2469150
"One thing which matters a great deal in control and is paramount for both styles is sailtrim and harnessline positioning. ....
Second, the harness lines have to be dead center. When on the foil try sailing with no hands. If the sail falls forward move your lines forward, if it falls backward move them back. For the foil I trim my lines down to the mm and am able to sail over 20 seconds with no hands. I put my lines all the way together, but thats a personal preference, when i started foiling I had them a handwidth apart, but i feel I have more control and faster response to gusts when they are closer together. Simply put, how far they are apart determines your room of error, but also the responsiveness of your sail to gusts by a great deal! "
Select to expand quoteowain said..
The mast base looks very close to the front straps. This is a screen shot from my second foiling session where I had the base a fraction behind the middle and I can still see the track (I realise you have a different board so might be smaller than mine). The difference in distance between our front strap and mast base is quite large. I am no expert but this is definitely something I noticed in your video.
I don't know. If dude has to be heavy back foot (if i read OP right) then moving mast foot forward will increase need for back foot pressure.
For me the downside of having mast foot back is that it makes things more maneuverable eventually bordering on squirliness.
I agree with harness lines being moved forwards than his normal, not sure I agree with shortening them.
Select to expand quotethedoor said..owain said..
The mast base looks very close to the front straps. This is a screen shot from my second foiling session where I had the base a fraction behind the middle and I can still see the track (I realise you have a different board so might be smaller than mine). The difference in distance between our front strap and mast base is quite large. I am no expert but this is definitely something I noticed in your video.
I don't know. If dude has to be heavy back foot (if i read OP right) then moving mast foot forward will increase need for back foot pressure.
For me the downside of having mast foot back is that it makes things more maneuverable eventually bordering on squirliness.
I agree with harness lines being moved forwards than his normal, not sure I agree with shortening them.
I'd also say it sounds like he's just too backfooted. So either one or a combination of: foil too far back; straps too far forward; too little angle on the stab; mastbase too far forward.
Having the sail fall back is the opposite of what you'd get with your mastfoot too far back, as its one way to "unweight" the mastfoot. For freeride with a small sail closer to the straps is in my opinion better than farther away, for it allows to sail more upright and therefore use more of the power in the sail. (Tilting the sail back kills the power due to a phenomenon called spanwise flow. Its the same concept as these fighter planes are based on, allowing them to achieve higher speeds: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-sweep_wing
Seen as you ride the naish setup, I'd start with increasing the angle of the stab (Put it about 2/3ds between flat and all the way with the front edge down with the foil down), and the position of the plate which I'd move 3cm forward first and then 1cm at a time till you feel you can put your sail upright. You could also move your straps back, my experience is boards feel more playful with both straps and foil further forward due to a more even distribution of weight to the front and aft of the board (essentially shorter nose). If you want a more "locked" feeling you could move your straps back, but "locked" is not what the naish was designed for.
I had my mast base more in the middle when I started and couldn't get on foil. For all I know, it probably wasn't windy enough. But the next time, I moved the mast base all the way back and got up on foil instantly. Granted there was more wind the next day. The next time, I moved it forward 8mm and it still went up on foil just as easy. I think I had more control that time in the air. I may just keep moving it a little more forward until I find the right spot. But when in doubt I would move the mast base back all the way, and start from there and move it forward as needed.
Select to expand quoteMagicRide said..
I had my mast base more in the middle when I started and couldn't get on foil. For all I know, it probably wasn't windy enough. But the next time, I moved the mast base all the way back and got up on foil instantly. Granted there was more wind the next day. The next time, I moved it forward 8mm and it still went up on foil just as easy. I think I had more control that time in the air. I may just keep moving it a little more forward until I find the right spot. But when in doubt I would move the mast base back all the way, and start from there and move it forward as needed.
This is consistent with my experience. Assuming straps and foil mast position are unchanged
Naish 122 and Naish foil user.
170lbs ready to go.
Foil back but 1/2" gap from most back.
Straps full forward and slalom tight.
Mast base just forward of center.
70 days in now.
Still hard to keep down in gusts, but easy to stay flying if I can moderately pump the board onto a plane.
Flying runs over a mile are easy, but struggling with foil jibes.
Planing jibes 90%, but I should be foiling thru all jibes.
Still windsurf 7 out of 10 water days.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Naish 122 and Naish foil user.
170lbs ready to go.
Foil back but 1/2" gap from most back.
Straps full forward and slalom tight.
Mast base just forward of center.
70 days in now.
Still hard to keep down in gusts, but easy to stay flying if I can moderately pump the board onto a plane.
Flying runs over a mile are easy, but struggling with foil jibes.
Planing jibes 90%, but I should be foiling thru all jibes.
Still windsurf 7 out of 10 water days.
I seriously would like to see a vid of how you are standing on your board....
@topicstarter, if you look at the videos of the guy who designed the stuff, you can clearly see he has his foil quite far forward relative to the backstrap. I think a good referencepoint to start from would be the front of the mast aligned with the inner front edge of the backstrap (if you get what I mean?) Maybe the mast even a cm further forward.
See at around 2:08:
I'd say mostly 50/50 with 5.3 and 10-15 mph breezes. Very balanced and stable, can keep the board a foot off the water for well over 1.5 miles.
But boring.
When gusts hit 20+, big time too much power and flight gets erratic...too much correction time and upwind foiling.
At the same 10-15, when other foilers my weight are using 6-7 meter sails, I can use a 4.5 with pumping and be happy I foil about as much as the guys with bigger foils, although I have to pump more.
I assume Robbie weighs around 155. Have sailed with and against him maybe over 70 days.
We'll see tonight. Going to his long wave movie and he'll be there.
Notice his '18 video he foils with a really skinny lightweight. Similar setup to his.
I think he foils in much steadier wind that never drops below 8, while peaking around 17.
Oh, last day I foiled,same 6.5 sail, was switching from foil to Isonic 111 and back...OP'd on both but survivable. Same point of sail.
Maybe 7-22 mph wind.
Thanks everyone for the advice! Particularly WoH!
I'm on the Galaxy as opposed to Hover which has fixed tuttle box foil as opposed to track.
2020 1150 foil also doesn't have adjustable stabilizer wing - although I've found can slightly adjust foil angle by tightening front or back screw down tight first and this makes noticeable difference - I adjusting front screw down tight first so foil slightly points 'up' towards nose of board as opposed to 'down' made flying easier.
I've found easier to pop up on foil with mast in back half so I'll stick with that to start.
I'll move straps back though (particularly front strap) - I can easily get in front strap before planing at present - and I'm often catching rail in planing (not foiling) gybes but it gybes much better when I stomp on tail and pivot it around indicating plenty of buoyancy in tail I can still use.
If I can sail with rig more upright I think that will help with harness issue.
We'll see how it goes!
You can try putting a washer between the stab and the fuselage to trim the angle, but footstraps are always an easy start so I'd do that first and revert to the stab angle if it still feels off ;).
In my experience raking the foilmast negatively, so tilting the wing towards the nose of the board (or the nose of the board down) is detrimental for performance. I always have the board nose high when the fuselage is flat by 1-2 degrees (or the other way round, board flat and fuselage angled front up 1-2 degrees, thats a little easier to measure). Nose high to a certain degree actually also increases front foot pressure slightly simply because your front foot is "higher" when your fuselage is level in the water (if you get my drift). Since the kit is designed to work together, having the box and tuttlehead align should be a good startingpoint if you dont want to think about it for now ;).
Ok, last night Robbie said he weighs 165 with shorts, t, jacket, and sandals.
We did not talk about windfoiling...too many people packed around.
Hi Stantumby,
I am from Eyre Peninsula, born in Tumby Bay, lived at Lipson, then Wudinna, windsurfed at Walkers Rocks and rest of the coast near Elliston. Think you might get so seaweed on east side of Eyre Peninsula.
Wished I had your 15-25 knot Feb/March seabreezes here in Houston.
Regarding "planing (not foiling) gybes but it gybes much better when I stomp on tail and pivot it around indicating plenty of buoyancy in tail I can still use"
Have not mastered the foil jibe yet, but know from good experience that stomping on the tail while trying to jibe when foil has barely enough speed causes the foil to launch out of the water like a rocket.
I think Wyatt Miller says "slow everything down" to foil jibe.
Hi oscardog,
I grew up in coffin bay and started windsurfing back there in the 1980s - still sail west coast a bit in winter on cold fronts but prefer Spencer gulf side for sea breezes in summer - although do occasionally venture to walkers and sceales.
I have had 'take off' experience with jibe but I'm talking about a completely stalled out pivot/snap type jibe.
Haven't seriously practiced foil jibes yet but to start I think I'll just try and run down swell and use the energy from wave to allow me to slowly get around.
